"It is finished." What is the "it?"
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Nah.
If the penalty of sin is spiritual death.
Then Jesus must suffer that penalty. or he did not pay the penalty of sin.
If the penalty of sin is spiritual death.
Then Jesus must suffer that penalty. or he did not pay the penalty of sin.
The consequence of sin is both spiritual and physical death.
The penalty is the price exacted by the justice of God for its removal (forgiveness).
Jesus did not suffer the consequences of sin because he never sinned.
However, he did suffer the penalty of sin in the place of God's people.
Elin said:
Where do you get the notion that in Christianity "the cross" refers simply to a wooden stick, rather than to the sacrifice of Christ?
The cross--Jesus saves by his death--is the gospel, not just the gospel's pivotal point.
How does a proclamation have a pivotal point?
The cross--Jesus saves by his death--is the gospel, not just the gospel's pivotal point.
How does a proclamation have a pivotal point?
See that? Jesus 1st,the crucifixion 2nd
That is Paul's description of the gospel.
And you didn't address my two questions.
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Elin said:
popeye said:
I never alluded to any"power" ,only the fact they were there.
You saying God planned out the passover date for jesus' crucifixion as an error,or as a coincidence?
You saying God planned out the passover date for jesus' crucifixion as an error,or as a coincidence?
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K
Which would make Jesus words "it is finished" have meaning.
Which makes the words, "It is finished" Have absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Jesus would have had to say, It is finished, I did my part. now you do your part. Which he did not. Unless he did in those extra bibical books and writings you like to follow?
Well lets see He said for us to repent or perish.......Luke 13:3
He said be baptized/born again.....Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, and John 3:7
He said to obey all that He taught.......Matthew 28:20
He said confess Him and He will confess you, deny Him and He will deny you........Matthew 10:32-33, Matthew 25:45
He said forgive others and He will forgive you, but if do not forgive He will not forgive you...........Matthew 6:14-15
So I think your understanding that we do not have to do anything to receive His remission for our sins and get eternal life is a little misplaced. As one who believes in Him will obey the rest of these to be under grace.......
P
Who made that rule?
Like you been following with me all along,and have a good knoledge of the types with the passover and the preistly duties parallel to the crucifiction.
We can just imagine in our minds you been just layin low,knowing the types are God ordained right?
E
So, then, you do not accept Thayer's interpretation? You just pick the interpretation that best fits your false belief. All of the scriptures must not contradict each other, or you do not have the truth. John 6:39 clearly states that Jesus died only for those that God gave him.
κόσμος, -ου, ὁ;
1. in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order.
2. as in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, ornament, decoration, adornment: ἐνδύσεως ἱματίων,
3. the world, i.e. the universe (quem κόσμον Graeci nomine ornamenti appellarunt, eum nos a perfecta absolutaque elegantia mundum, Plin. h. n. 2, 3; in which sense Pythagoras is said to have been the first to use the word, Plut. de plac. philos. 2, 1, 1 p. 886 c.; but acc. to other accounts he used it of the heavens, Diog. L. 8, 48, of which it is used several times also by other Grk. writ. [see Menag. on Diog. Laërt. I. c.; Bentley, Epp. of Phalar. vol. i. 391 (Lond. 1836); M. Anton. 4, 27 and Gataker’s notes; cf. L. and S. s. v. IV.]):
4. the circle of the earth, the earth, (very rarely so in Grk. writ, until after the age of the ptolemies; so in Boeckh, corp. inscrr. i. pp. 413 and 643, nos. 334 and 1306
5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις κ. ἀνθρώποις,
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ [cf. W. 26]:
7. worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ: Gal. 6:14; 1 Jn. 2:16 sq.; 3:17; εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κ., to be
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort [cf. Eng. “a world of curses” (Shakspere), etc.]: ὁ κόσμος τῆς ἀδικίας, the sum of all iniquities,
[SUP][SUP][FONT="][1][/FONT][/SUP][/SUP] Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. ii). New York: Harper & Brothers.
so before you start slaming on someone, you should at least assume they have the ability to test what your saying. I have access to many greek resources, including thayer. Logos Bible Software is a great resource. you should try it.
As for John 6.
Since your too lazy to go back and read. As I said. Jesus said in John 6 to seek the food which endures to eternal life. The whoever sees and believes in him has eternal life. Will live forever, never die, never hunger or thirst. and be risen on the last day. But he also said we must not only seek for it. But actually eat (greek is chew or null, which is more than just take a nibble or taste) in order to have faith and believe on these things.
John 6 supports eternal security and faith in Christ. Not that jesus died for a select few. If he did. We would not have to seek for the food which endures forever.
elin said:
popeye said:
1 cor 2;2 For I determined not
to know any thing among you, save
Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
See that? Jesus 1st,the crucifixion 2nd
to know any thing among you, save
Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
See that? Jesus 1st,the crucifixion 2nd
That is Paul's description of the gospel.
And you didn't address my two questions.
E
You reprimand others for believing eternal salvation buy works, when that's exactly what you believe that Christ died just to give you a chance and you have to accept (action of man - works) his offer.
Jesus said it is the work of God that our faith can even occure.
In order for me to preach works I would have to preach I must do somethign I can take credit for.
Show me someone who can boast of saving themselves when they were totally hopless, and the only way they could be saved was to trust someone else to save them.
The idea that man can boast of trusting someone else completely to save them, because they are in a desperate situation and can do nothing to save themselves is quite silly (to say it lightly, I would rather say another word but will try to keep it clean and non offensive)
E
Then explain Romans 9:21. All scriptures must harmonize to know the truth.
the only way I can do this is to explain all of romans 9. Why do you stick to one verse?
what is the OT context of what Paul quoted? for only then can we get context.
Is 29: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord, And their works are in the dark; They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?” [SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
Jer 18: 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [SUP]6 [/SUP]“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, [SUP]8 [/SUP]if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Niether one of them supports Calvins interpretation of romans 9.
For One says no one can question God on how he does something.
the other says the clay (of its own free will) was destroyed in his hand, so he destroyed it and made a new vessel.
Free will is not destroyed in the OT or Paul.
Nice try though.
E
The reason that Jesus came to this earth is explained in John 6:38-39. When he said it is finished, he was saying that he had finished the reason for coming to earth which was to redeem back those that God gave him. Jesus said that there will be no more sacrifice for sin. All of God's sheep (elect) was secured for eternal life by the action of Jesus on the cross and there will not be even one goat saved eternally. That's why "it is finished".
Jesus did offer eternal life to all. Based on his death and this alone.
Not just some.
You play little games when outta gas huh?
Like you been following with me all along,and have a good knoledge of the types with the passover and the preistly duties parallel to the crucifiction.
We can just imagine in our minds you been just layin low,knowing the types are God ordained right?
Like you been following with me all along,and have a good knoledge of the types with the passover and the preistly duties parallel to the crucifiction.
We can just imagine in our minds you been just layin low,knowing the types are God ordained right?
E
I can not explain the old testament quote, unless you give me the quote.
How do you study Gods word if you do not look up what is being said to determine the context of the quote? Do you just listen to what someone says and take them at their word? God warns us against this. As Paul, who wrote romans 9, warned us not to do.
E
The only person that has the ability to receive Jesus's work on the cross are those that are already born of the Spirit according to 1 Cor 2:14. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was not for man's acceptance, but for God's acceptance in which he was well pleased. When you choose to trust God, you are, by the act of choosing performing a work, plus you have to be already born of the Spirit before you have the ability to choose anything that is of a spiritual nature.
On can not be born of the spirit while still in sin, They are spiritually dead because of sin, God can not enter a soul who is tainted in sin, that sin must be washed first.
Justification must occur before the spirit can enter. We are born BECAUSE we are justified. We are justified by faith.
You have the order backwards. You have God entering a soul, and making them alive in Christ before sin is washed away, this is impossible.
God and sin can not relate.
E
The natural man, before he is born again by the grace of God, will not, and indeed can not trust in God according to 1 Cor 2:14. God will not give man eternal life by depending upon himself in it being man's choice. Dan 4:35 - God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand. If God wants to save you eternally, he will, even if you drag your hills in the dirt. The freedom God gives to man is to make choices about his life here on earth, but not on choosing to be eternally saved, that's by the grace of God only.
Yeah they can.
romans 1. No man has an excuse. If a natural man can not know his own fate (even though paul said they already know it) and figure out the way to be saved. then everyone not saved has an excuse.
And paul lied in romans 1
I understand your FEAR of taking credit for saving yourself. But do not taint the unfailing love of God for his creation out of this fear.
Jesus did the work. Trust him, He gets the credit, not you, and his love is still in tact, and the universe is in awe of him.