Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)
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What was one of the reasons why God destroyed the world with a world wide global flood? Well, one reason was that mankind's imaginaion of his thoughts was only evil continually (Genesis 6:5). Aso, having lustful thoughts is committing adultery in your heart and it is still a sin that a person needs to confess. How so? Well, John equates hate with murder and then says that no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). So no. Sinful thoughts is just as bad as sinful actions. They are both sins that need to be confessed so as to be forgiven. For Paul says those who hate (amongst a list of other sins) will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21); And Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).
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Before I reply to your recent posts, I think we need to clarify how you define two things for me in precise detail (If you don't mind), my friend.
#1. Define confessing sin as per 1 John 1:9 with it not being confessing one sin so as to be forgiven of it. In other words, how does a believer put 1 John 1:9 into practice that goes beyond what it says plainly? For I see it as saying, if we confess our sin (one sin or many), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. How is your belief different than that? How would the believer in his every day to day existence put that into practice versus say the way I put 1 John 1:9 into practice?
#2. Define sinless perfectionism. Is 1 John 5:16-18 talking about the spiritual sins or physical sins? Is not sin spiritual? Is there something in the 1st epistle of John that lets us know it is talking about physical death here? Did Jesus say that we should be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect? What does that kind of perfect mean to you? Are you saying no one will ever reach perfection like this (Even though Jesus told us to be perfect)? Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. What does that mean to you and how do you tie it in with the other verses proceeding it? Also, 1 John 3 says he that doeth righteousness is righteous. So how do you define righteousness in this context? You know, the one that does righteous and is righteous?
Also, the Scriptures say, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10). It also says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." (1 John 3:8). Can a man serve two kingdoms? Would not a person following God eventually be led to doing that which is only good and right? What verse makes you think that no believer will not crucify the affections and lusts (or to stop in sinning those types of sins that lead unto death)? What does Hebrews 12:14 mean to you when it says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord? Can a person be holy (or righteous) and sinful at the same time?
Side Note:
Please take note that when I mention "sins unto death", I am talking about sins such as murder, hate, lust, lying, stealing, and getting drunk, etc.
...
#1. Define confessing sin as per 1 John 1:9 with it not being confessing one sin so as to be forgiven of it. In other words, how does a believer put 1 John 1:9 into practice that goes beyond what it says plainly? For I see it as saying, if we confess our sin (one sin or many), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. How is your belief different than that? How would the believer in his every day to day existence put that into practice versus say the way I put 1 John 1:9 into practice?
#2. Define sinless perfectionism. Is 1 John 5:16-18 talking about the spiritual sins or physical sins? Is not sin spiritual? Is there something in the 1st epistle of John that lets us know it is talking about physical death here? Did Jesus say that we should be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect? What does that kind of perfect mean to you? Are you saying no one will ever reach perfection like this (Even though Jesus told us to be perfect)? Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. What does that mean to you and how do you tie it in with the other verses proceeding it? Also, 1 John 3 says he that doeth righteousness is righteous. So how do you define righteousness in this context? You know, the one that does righteous and is righteous?
Also, the Scriptures say, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10). It also says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." (1 John 3:8). Can a man serve two kingdoms? Would not a person following God eventually be led to doing that which is only good and right? What verse makes you think that no believer will not crucify the affections and lusts (or to stop in sinning those types of sins that lead unto death)? What does Hebrews 12:14 mean to you when it says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord? Can a person be holy (or righteous) and sinful at the same time?
Side Note:
Please take note that when I mention "sins unto death", I am talking about sins such as murder, hate, lust, lying, stealing, and getting drunk, etc.
...
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Also, the point was brought up by another Christian here about how a child who keeps throwing something at a teacher and keeps saying they are sorry for doing so. But is such a child truly sorry?
In other words, if 1 John 1:9 is not talking about confessing each sin and no believer will ever stop doing evil or sin, then how are they truly sorry for the evil that they do (If they have not stopped)? Is this not like the example with the child who keeps doing wrong and saying they are sorry?
Are folks unaware that Paul talks about sins as being in the past for believers?
(See Ephesians 2:2-3 and Colossians 3:7).
In other words, if 1 John 1:9 is not talking about confessing each sin and no believer will ever stop doing evil or sin, then how are they truly sorry for the evil that they do (If they have not stopped)? Is this not like the example with the child who keeps doing wrong and saying they are sorry?
Are folks unaware that Paul talks about sins as being in the past for believers?
(See Ephesians 2:2-3 and Colossians 3:7).
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Romans 7 is not dealing with Paul's struggle with sin as a Christian. Paul is talking about his experience before he became a Christian when he was a Jew trying to be wrongfully be justified by the Law of Moses (Which is no longer in effect because Jesus implimented the New Testament with his death). For if what you say is true, then Paul would be contradicting himself because he says in Romans 7 that he is sold under sin,
"I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)
And in Romans 8, Paul says he is free from the law of sin,
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2)
In other words, you can't be sold under sin and also free from sin at the same time. It's either one or the other.
"I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2)
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S
If you read Romans 7 again, without making excuses for your preconceived doctrine, you will find that the conclusion is that a person is justified from the inside, not from the outside.
It is the struggle that is sanctification.
Those who are not set apart (sanctified) do not struggle, nor do they overcome, nor do they have peace.
Those who are set apart (sanctified) DO struggle against sin, and do overcome (perfected at the Resurrection), and do have peace.
Interestingly enough, this understanding of perfection coming through death and resurrection is the very manifestation of the Baptism that we preach.
It is the struggle that is sanctification.
Those who are not set apart (sanctified) do not struggle, nor do they overcome, nor do they have peace.
Those who are set apart (sanctified) DO struggle against sin, and do overcome (perfected at the Resurrection), and do have peace.
Interestingly enough, this understanding of perfection coming through death and resurrection is the very manifestation of the Baptism that we preach.
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S
If you are still hung up on a legalistic version of confession,
read Romans 8:24-30,
Then read verse 26-27 a few times.
Do we intercede for ourselves? Or does the Spirit, knowing the heart and mind, intercede on our behalf.
Then keep reading the chapter.
What does verse 34 say? Christ Himself intercedes on our behalf.
read Romans 8:24-30,
Then read verse 26-27 a few times.
Do we intercede for ourselves? Or does the Spirit, knowing the heart and mind, intercede on our behalf.
Then keep reading the chapter.
What does verse 34 say? Christ Himself intercedes on our behalf.
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S
The fear you preach, Jason, is for the unbeliever.
The assurance given in Christ, is for the true Believer only.
Many claim to believe, yet remain in fear,
because either (1) their belief rests in their own effort for salvation,
or (2) that they secretly know that they have not received New Life.
There are both many Arminianists and many Calvinists within these two groups of unbelievers.
The assurance given in Christ, is for the true Believer only.
Many claim to believe, yet remain in fear,
because either (1) their belief rests in their own effort for salvation,
or (2) that they secretly know that they have not received New Life.
There are both many Arminianists and many Calvinists within these two groups of unbelievers.
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Dear Mailman Dan:
Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope everything is going well for you.
Anyways, to get down to business,
When you asked, "Who refuses to confess their sins in 1 John 1:8-10?":
Well, if my memory serves me correctly, you said to me before that 1 John 1:9 is not the confession of each individual sins as a believer. This implies that you either believe in:
(a) A generalized confession of your sin is what is required
(Which seems contrary to 1 John 2:1 that says if we do sin, we are to go to Jesus).
The problem with this view (if that is what you believe) is that it does not treat sin as being all that serious or hurtful to God. It also undermines 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 in the fact that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, too). In other words, getting around to confessing your sins in time makes it seem like one can put off confessing their sin to God and thereby hold onto their sins for a while before they confess to the Lord. But 1 John 2:1 does not give us an indication that we can be lazy or cavalier about confessing sin if one were to do so. John says to "sin not." He then says if you do sin, you have an advocate named Jesus Christ. John does not say, if you do sin, you can get around to eventually telling your advocate about such a sin whenever you feel like it.
(b) A confessing of certain sins on occasion but not for every sin.
This kind of reminds of the person who comes into work and hapharzardly does their job and expects not to get into trouble with their boss or the husband who only loves his wife on and off and expects their relationship to be good. In other words, when a believer sins, they are hurting God (When they do so). To say we can just ... I will only confess if it is really bad or do so on occasion just to sort of make it look like I am following 1 John 1:9 (when in reality one is not doing so). However, 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sin (one or many) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. Verse 8 and 10 does not change the meaning of 1 John 1:9. Verse 8 and 10 is saying to the Antinomian that they do not have any sin to truly be forgiven because they believe all their sin: past, present, and future is forgiven them. Granted verse 8 and 10 is warning to the brethren that is dealing with a more extreme form of Antinomianism (Where one does not even believe they sin physically). But this again does not change 1 John 1:9 in what is says plainly.
In Ephesians 1, verse 14: the King James renders the Greek with the English word "earnest" It is used instead of the word "guarantee." Other translations render it as "down payment." This is more befitting of what the word means when one does a search at BlueLetterBible and a search on the origin of the word "earnest." Also, Ephesians 1 is addressed to the SAINTS and not to sinners at Ephesus and to the FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus and not the unfaithful (See Ephesians 1:1). Those who are faithful will do that which is righteous before the Lord and they will not habitually sin as a way of life. So this whole idea that one cannot stop from sinning (or stop in crucifying the affections and lusts) is just not true. For in order to be faithful, you can't be unfaithful by sinning and or practicing or committing unrighteousness.
Well, when you say you don't have to confess each individual sin and that no can stop sinning you are making me think otherwise. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying we should treat confessing sin to God as if it was sort of like confessing our sins to a Catholic priest? You know, that we can sin on occasion (or have our pet little sins thru out the week) or not worry about sin (or strive for stopping in our sinning) because we are merely confessing our sins every now and then? Would that still not be holding onto sin while one just pays lip service? How is one truly sorry if they keep doing the same evil thing over and over again? Granted, I understand some believers might struggle with sin and they desire to stop, but they pray to the Lord for help and they ask the brethren to help them, as well. But the goal should never be an acceptance of sin as it being a normal thing for a Christian. The whole "nobody is perfect" is not a Christian concept. Believers practice righteousness as way of life and not unrighteousness because they are new creatures in Christ and they are born again. They are different from the world. For one is either Holy or not holy in the way they live. If one says there is no such thing as sinless perfectionism or that one has to stop in their sinning then one cannot say they are among the saints. For the word "saints" is the opposite of the word "sinners."
How is one cleansed inbetween the time they are not 100% not sinning as a way of life? Do believers have a belief alone on Jesus and just occasionly offer a generalized prayer of forgiveness whenever they get around to it? Or do they confess their sin as soon as it arrives and seek God's help to stop? Do they ever treat sin as if it hurts God? Is there ever a point where they stop in their sinning against God? If not, then why would Jesus say be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect then? In other words, you are looking at the entire life of the believer as one being perfect. But this is not what God has in mind because He knows that everyone has sinned since becoming a believer. But Paul talks about how we used to be sinners and we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Colossians 3:7).
So God sets a standard or goal that we can't keep? That doesn't make any sense. God would not taunt us with a way of righteousness that we could not keep. Paul was a righteous man. His garments were even considered to be holy (that could heal others) because he was righteous. Not because of himself but because Christ lived within him. Christ justified Paul. Christ also worked sanctification in the life of Paul, as well. Christ did the work in Paul. Christ's righteousness and not Paul's righteousness. For to be righteous on our own merits or to be perfect would be impossible. But with God, all things are possible. Why do I say that? Because this was the same answer given to the richman who did not want to give up his riches (Instead of fellowing Jesus).
"Perfection" in the context of this verse is not so much dealing with sinlessness only here but with one being blameless. Believers will be judged by Christ for what they have done here. So this verse is in context to the Bema Seat Judgment and the race Paul said he was running so as to win the prize (Philippians 3:14). Believers who refused to repent and or work wickedness will not be at the Bema Seat Judgment and they will instead hear a different set of words from our Lord (See Matthew 7).
Actually the one who has the most sin forgiven in their life by the Lord is the one who is more grateful. Remember the prostitute? Anyways, God forgives sins both small and great.
Well, no true Christian is ever going to forget sin. God convicts the believer of their sin immediately so that they will repent of it. Besides, God has killed believers for sinning against Him. This is God's Judgment and not salvation. God doesn't reward His people in doing evil. In other words, if a believer sins (like with Ananias and Sapphira) and they get to go to Heaven early, it makes it seem like God is rewarding their evil.
Then why ask me if we will forget a sin then if God is the one who will not let them forget?
When a believer first comes to the faith, God is not going to make them obviously confess all their sins. 1 John 1:9 is not in reference to the new convert who is accepting Jesus for the first time. The 1st epistle of John is written to those who have been believers (and not people who are about to acccept Jesus). But like I said, the Holy Spirit will convict a believer to repent or confess of their sin. So this whole scenario of them forgetting their sin does not exist unless they are unsaved and or they have decided to to ignore the Spirit and live for themselves and sin.
Grace, peace, and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope everything is going well for you.
Anyways, to get down to business,
When you asked, "Who refuses to confess their sins in 1 John 1:8-10?":
Well, if my memory serves me correctly, you said to me before that 1 John 1:9 is not the confession of each individual sins as a believer. This implies that you either believe in:
(a) A generalized confession of your sin is what is required
(Which seems contrary to 1 John 2:1 that says if we do sin, we are to go to Jesus).
The problem with this view (if that is what you believe) is that it does not treat sin as being all that serious or hurtful to God. It also undermines 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 in the fact that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, too). In other words, getting around to confessing your sins in time makes it seem like one can put off confessing their sin to God and thereby hold onto their sins for a while before they confess to the Lord. But 1 John 2:1 does not give us an indication that we can be lazy or cavalier about confessing sin if one were to do so. John says to "sin not." He then says if you do sin, you have an advocate named Jesus Christ. John does not say, if you do sin, you can get around to eventually telling your advocate about such a sin whenever you feel like it.
(b) A confessing of certain sins on occasion but not for every sin.
This kind of reminds of the person who comes into work and hapharzardly does their job and expects not to get into trouble with their boss or the husband who only loves his wife on and off and expects their relationship to be good. In other words, when a believer sins, they are hurting God (When they do so). To say we can just ... I will only confess if it is really bad or do so on occasion just to sort of make it look like I am following 1 John 1:9 (when in reality one is not doing so). However, 1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sin (one or many) he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin. Verse 8 and 10 does not change the meaning of 1 John 1:9. Verse 8 and 10 is saying to the Antinomian that they do not have any sin to truly be forgiven because they believe all their sin: past, present, and future is forgiven them. Granted verse 8 and 10 is warning to the brethren that is dealing with a more extreme form of Antinomianism (Where one does not even believe they sin physically). But this again does not change 1 John 1:9 in what is says plainly.
In Ephesians 1, verse 14: the King James renders the Greek with the English word "earnest" It is used instead of the word "guarantee." Other translations render it as "down payment." This is more befitting of what the word means when one does a search at BlueLetterBible and a search on the origin of the word "earnest." Also, Ephesians 1 is addressed to the SAINTS and not to sinners at Ephesus and to the FAITHFUL in Christ Jesus and not the unfaithful (See Ephesians 1:1). Those who are faithful will do that which is righteous before the Lord and they will not habitually sin as a way of life. So this whole idea that one cannot stop from sinning (or stop in crucifying the affections and lusts) is just not true. For in order to be faithful, you can't be unfaithful by sinning and or practicing or committing unrighteousness.
Well, when you say you don't have to confess each individual sin and that no can stop sinning you are making me think otherwise. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying we should treat confessing sin to God as if it was sort of like confessing our sins to a Catholic priest? You know, that we can sin on occasion (or have our pet little sins thru out the week) or not worry about sin (or strive for stopping in our sinning) because we are merely confessing our sins every now and then? Would that still not be holding onto sin while one just pays lip service? How is one truly sorry if they keep doing the same evil thing over and over again? Granted, I understand some believers might struggle with sin and they desire to stop, but they pray to the Lord for help and they ask the brethren to help them, as well. But the goal should never be an acceptance of sin as it being a normal thing for a Christian. The whole "nobody is perfect" is not a Christian concept. Believers practice righteousness as way of life and not unrighteousness because they are new creatures in Christ and they are born again. They are different from the world. For one is either Holy or not holy in the way they live. If one says there is no such thing as sinless perfectionism or that one has to stop in their sinning then one cannot say they are among the saints. For the word "saints" is the opposite of the word "sinners."
How is one cleansed inbetween the time they are not 100% not sinning as a way of life? Do believers have a belief alone on Jesus and just occasionly offer a generalized prayer of forgiveness whenever they get around to it? Or do they confess their sin as soon as it arrives and seek God's help to stop? Do they ever treat sin as if it hurts God? Is there ever a point where they stop in their sinning against God? If not, then why would Jesus say be ye perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect then? In other words, you are looking at the entire life of the believer as one being perfect. But this is not what God has in mind because He knows that everyone has sinned since becoming a believer. But Paul talks about how we used to be sinners and we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (Colossians 3:7).
So God sets a standard or goal that we can't keep? That doesn't make any sense. God would not taunt us with a way of righteousness that we could not keep. Paul was a righteous man. His garments were even considered to be holy (that could heal others) because he was righteous. Not because of himself but because Christ lived within him. Christ justified Paul. Christ also worked sanctification in the life of Paul, as well. Christ did the work in Paul. Christ's righteousness and not Paul's righteousness. For to be righteous on our own merits or to be perfect would be impossible. But with God, all things are possible. Why do I say that? Because this was the same answer given to the richman who did not want to give up his riches (Instead of fellowing Jesus).
"Perfection" in the context of this verse is not so much dealing with sinlessness only here but with one being blameless. Believers will be judged by Christ for what they have done here. So this verse is in context to the Bema Seat Judgment and the race Paul said he was running so as to win the prize (Philippians 3:14). Believers who refused to repent and or work wickedness will not be at the Bema Seat Judgment and they will instead hear a different set of words from our Lord (See Matthew 7).
Actually the one who has the most sin forgiven in their life by the Lord is the one who is more grateful. Remember the prostitute? Anyways, God forgives sins both small and great.
Well, no true Christian is ever going to forget sin. God convicts the believer of their sin immediately so that they will repent of it. Besides, God has killed believers for sinning against Him. This is God's Judgment and not salvation. God doesn't reward His people in doing evil. In other words, if a believer sins (like with Ananias and Sapphira) and they get to go to Heaven early, it makes it seem like God is rewarding their evil.
Then why ask me if we will forget a sin then if God is the one who will not let them forget?
When a believer first comes to the faith, God is not going to make them obviously confess all their sins. 1 John 1:9 is not in reference to the new convert who is accepting Jesus for the first time. The 1st epistle of John is written to those who have been believers (and not people who are about to acccept Jesus). But like I said, the Holy Spirit will convict a believer to repent or confess of their sin. So this whole scenario of them forgetting their sin does not exist unless they are unsaved and or they have decided to to ignore the Spirit and live for themselves and sin.
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S
I don't think you comprehend how often human beings sin, even when they think they are good.
As I mature, I realize more and more sins that I have within me that I never recognized before.
As I find new ones, I confess those new ones, I fight those new ones, and eventually give them over to God and overcome them... but then another unrecognized sin pops into my "radar" of conviction (usually something g I had done for years, but felt justified in doing, or even "righteous" about doing).
Get an understanding of how pervasive sin is, and exactly how the the conviction of the Spirit works, and then tell me about confession of sin.
If you think you are not sinning right now, wait a few years and look back on this convo, and you will likely see sins in your present self that you have not yet recognized.
As I mature, I realize more and more sins that I have within me that I never recognized before.
As I find new ones, I confess those new ones, I fight those new ones, and eventually give them over to God and overcome them... but then another unrecognized sin pops into my "radar" of conviction (usually something g I had done for years, but felt justified in doing, or even "righteous" about doing).
Get an understanding of how pervasive sin is, and exactly how the the conviction of the Spirit works, and then tell me about confession of sin.
If you think you are not sinning right now, wait a few years and look back on this convo, and you will likely see sins in your present self that you have not yet recognized.