Hebrews 6:1-6

[weakness]

​Greetings I have been reading and going back to the beginning of this thread so am a little behind. I woke up yesterday and as usual got my comp. to see whats new here. I was reading this and felt really fed u with this same old argument and untruth (in my opinion ) on both sides. It did not set the foundation of a good day in my thoughts. But here I am again. .....There seems to be so much emphasis put on the bible, and rightly so, but I get divine inspiration daily through many faucets. After all the whole creation declares his glory,God-head,and workings. It would be faithless not to see and hear God every where ,even in the darkness. I think in Prov. it says that even darkness will be a light unto our feet. Jesus said if the eye is single the whole body will be full of light. And to the pure all thins are pure , but to him that is defiled nothing is pure, even their conscience is defiled. 16 They profess they know God, but in works they deny him. I am not speaking of the commandments of men that turn from the truth...Also I was thinking of his body, those pulsing with the life of the Holy Spirit,having been baptized into Christs death and risen with him by the same power which raised him from the dead. WE almost all know that to every member has been given a measure of the gift of Christ, to be and minister Jesus to the world and ourselves.WE, Paul says, are not the old , the tablet that where in were the ten commandments we written by God in stone. But we as Living epistles, with the law written in our heart, are a law unto ourselves. By reason of a changed nature ,a divine nature, a begotten nature through the Holy Spirit living and working through us. Scripture say my sheep here my voice, now if I hear the lord, speaking to me , whether through a bible, or a person ,or creation, or any number of things, is it not still the lord of life. But what does it say? The Word (rehma) is nigh thee ,even in thy heart. That is the word of faith which we preach....I guess I think this immediate,every day ,every where, any situation, word we carry with us through the H.S. Is of great importance. See not we refuse him that speaketh, for they escaped not Moses who spoke on earth, how much more shall we Not escape refusing him that speaks from heaven. I read the scripture all the time, but Gods voice can be heard anywhere ,and are relationship to Jesus is more important than a relationship to words written on paper. What did jesus say? When you are call before Kings and powers ,take no thought ,but you better have your bible!! NO ,he said the Holy Spirit, my Spirit will in that hour tell and guide you in what to say,Right? We need a relationship with Jesus, his word in our hearts and mouths.....So I think Jesus is who we should look to for truth Jesus could even speak though another member of his body, would that be a novel thing . Just kidding sorry I written way to much but I am bored just laying in bed everyday. blessings

 

[SarahM777]

A son is still a son.

Only those who are NOT sons will go to hell. Jesus is not going to cast his ADOPTED son into hell. He adopted them.

I pray you do not adopt any kids. If you do to them what you want God to do to his children, you would not make a very good mother.

You continue to leave that even with natural FATHERS AND SONS that a son that LEAVES the father may NEVER return to his father. It happens all the time. God is NOT WILLING that any man perishes,but that DOES NOT mean He will FORCE anyone to remain with Him. No where in that parable does the FATHER FORCE the son to return,and until the son returns to the Father the son is DEAD to the Father.

Again a DEAD SON IS STILL a SON,but the son is still DEAD. Jesus point is NOT about whether the son is a son or not. His point is whether the son is ALIVE OR DEAD.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No the truth is you don't know much bro......the destruction of the flesh = physical death......as long as you fail to acknowledge truth you will remain blind for sure Kenneth...

No it does not as that is not even the context of that chapter, you consistantly want to take and pull one verse out of a whole chapter and change its context. You can not do that or you will always have the wrong understanding, as the whole context of that chapter is about believers in Christ who continue to live willful sinning live. They are to be cast out of the church so they do not corrupt the other members, nothing about putting them to physical death in that chapter.

Second your reasoning makes no sense because putting a person to death (physical death) is not handing them over to satan. Because satan does not control the afterlife, and once a person dies in a sinful lifestyle they can no longer be saved after that.
Lord Jesus makes it clear you have to obey now while still in the flesh bodies before you die, and if you don't obey and die in unrepented willful sins there is no salvation for that person. If you are saying a person can live a sinful lifestyle, die, and still be given eternal life you are not reading from the bible.

That and satan is the prince of this world right now, so handing them over to satan means hand them over to the sinful world.

 

[forsha]

That is false teaching as the bible clearly says a person can not continue to live a lifestyle of deliberate willful sinning and still have eternal life. The bible is very clear on this matter, and the Apostle Paul says continuing in willful sinning is living a carnal lifestyle. Paul says walking carnally leads to spiritual death and not eternal life.
Yes believers do still sin here and there, but we can not continue to constantly sin deliberately everyday of our lives. Those who say you can and still have eternal life are walking in a manner of serving two masters in which the bible says we can not do to receive eternal life. You either serve sin that will lead to spiritual death, or you serve righteousness of Christ leading to eternal life. You can not serve both !!!

There was a time in my life that I set my mind to study hard to understand the scriptures, so that they would not seemingly contradict each other, and thought I was smart enough to figure them out. For twelve years I studied using Greek translators and investigating different churches and their doctrines with no results of doing away with my ,so called, contradicting scriptures until I finally , denied myself of my ability, and shortly after that, I believe that the Holy Spirit within me, revealed the understanding of the scriptures I had studied for so long to harmonize. I can look back and understand, not being revealed earlier, because I would have thought it was my intellect that caused me to understand. By my experience, I understand that I can not make others see, and that it has to be by the revelation of the Spirit to them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I think is quite irrelevant. What these texts reveal is what is important.

I can say the same thing.

Now be honest EG. What do you think 10:29 means when the writer says that they had once been sanctified? He does not say they had made any type of claims to this effect but states it as a simple matter of record. They had at some point in the past been made holy, set apart. This does not happen apart from being saved.

so your saying a person who continues to live in sin was saved?

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Sounds alot like james and judes warnings there to me. Not a warning one can lose salvation.

You are right and in both cased the end result for those is the judgment of God.

Yet in both results, the person was still saved (not condemned) It was their reward which was burned, not them.

Yes I did respond to the rest of chapter six. This parabolic illustration is directed to these who had fallen away and their fate is decreed. As for the rest of the chapter, the writer redirects his attention in verse nine from those who had fallen away to those who had not. The fate of these is also decreed in verse fourteen, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”

You did?


[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hmm. So he is speaking of better things for those who are saved. Where is the loss of salvation here?


[SUP]18 [/SUP]That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

If Christ is our high priest. how can we lose salvation. If he is our hope. and he can not lie. then how can we lose salvation (since salvation SOLELY relys on Him and not ourselves)

if we can lose salvation, we have no hope. our hope is in self not god. and our high priest has failed.

End of story.

Only in the levitical preisthood is their no hope in eternal life, because in the levitical priesthood, Sin could not be forgiven until the sacrifice was made.

The whole context of Heb 6 is saying salvation can be lost (which the law states) puts jesus to shame, it says his death was not sufficient

Hebrews chapters three and four answer this.

Heb 3 speaks of those who left Egypt. but left in a heart of unbelief, thus were never saved. The author is telling us to make sure we are of pure faith, not of the faith of those who left egypt in a heart of unbelief. and thus never entered the promised land.

No loss of salvation here

heb 4 says we who truly believe WILL enter his rest (no iff about it) if we do not have a heart of belief, but a heart of unbelief like they did, we will never enter his rest.

so not sure where your getting your info from. but heb 3 and 4 does not answer the question of how there is no hope of we are not assured salvation. It supports it.

 

[dcontroversal]

No it does not as that is not even the context of that chapter, you consistantly want to take and pull one verse out of a whole chapter and change its context. You can not do that or you will always have the wrong understanding, as the whole context of that chapter is about believers in Christ who continue to live willful sinning live. They are to be cast out of the church so they do not corrupt the other members, nothing about putting them to physical death in that chapter.

Second your reasoning makes no sense because putting a person to death (physical death) is not handing them over to satan. Because satan does not control the afterlife, and once a person dies in a sinful lifestyle they can no longer be saved after that.
Lord Jesus makes it clear you have to obey now while still in the flesh bodies before you die, and if you don't obey and die in unrepented willful sins there is no salvation for that person. If you are saying a person can live a sinful lifestyle, die, and still be given eternal life you are not reading from the bible.

That and satan is the prince of this world right now, so handing them over to satan means hand them over to the sinful world.

Didn't say anything about the after life and I suggest you read Job......Satan has the ability to touch the flesh and even kill if God allows it........Do you even study or just regurgitate the opinions of men...?

 

[dcontroversal]

No it does not as that is not even the context of that chapter, you consistantly want to take and pull one verse out of a whole chapter and change its context. You can not do that or you will always have the wrong understanding, as the whole context of that chapter is about believers in Christ who continue to live willful sinning live. They are to be cast out of the church so they do not corrupt the other members, nothing about putting them to physical death in that chapter.

Second your reasoning makes no sense because putting a person to death (physical death) is not handing them over to satan. Because satan does not control the afterlife, and once a person dies in a sinful lifestyle they can no longer be saved after that.
Lord Jesus makes it clear you have to obey now while still in the flesh bodies before you die, and if you don't obey and die in unrepented willful sins there is no salvation for that person. If you are saying a person can live a sinful lifestyle, die, and still be given eternal life you are not reading from the bible.

That and satan is the prince of this world right now, so handing them over to satan means hand them over to the sinful world.

More blindness to the truth...........!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

As I say almost every time now ...

No matter the good intentions, no matter the original posting member, regardless of how members try to steer clear, these threads always break down into the same ol' c--- ... stuff.

 

[forsha]

So none of things ever come out of loving heart that's been change by the Father's love? None of those are responses to His love for us? Is that what you are trying to say?

I am not saying that at all. I am saying that none of our actions are the cause of our eternal salvation, but they are the result of already being saved eternally.

 

[SarahM777]

A son is still a son.

Only those who are NOT sons will go to hell. Jesus is not going to cast his ADOPTED son into hell. He adopted them.

I pray you do not adopt any kids. If you do to them what you want God to do to his children, you would not make a very good mother.

And to take it further in the parable can you find one place where Jesus says that after the son REJECTED the Father that the Father ever sees the son as being alive WHILE he is in rejection of the Father,or was it that the Father didn't see the son as being ALIVE until the moment of his return to the Father?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You continue to leave that even with natural FATHERS AND SONS that a son that LEAVES the father may NEVER return to his father. It happens all the time. God is NOT WILLING that any man perishes,but that DOES NOT mean He will FORCE anyone to remain with Him. No where in that parable does the FATHER FORCE the son to return,and until the son returns to the Father the son is DEAD to the Father.

Again a DEAD SON IS STILL a SON,but the son is still DEAD. Jesus point is NOT about whether the son is a son or not. His point is whether the son is ALIVE OR DEAD.

yeah, And?

A father who loves his child will not disown that son. no matter what.

He is still the son.

you seem to forget that God is omnipresent. YOU CAN NOT LEAVE GOD, he is EVERYWHERE YOU ARE

why do you continually want to humanize God? you act like you have a pagan God. not an omniscient omnipresent God who has no power.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

A son may still be son,but a DEAD SON IS STILL A DEAD SON. And a DEAD SON HAS NO LIFE. The question NOT whether the son is a son or not,the REAL question is the son DEAD or ALIVE.

So ... God would adopt a dead son?

You need to rethink your analogy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And to take it further in the parable can you find one place where Jesus says that after the son REJECTED the Father that the Father ever sees the son as being alive WHILE he is in rejection of the Father,or was it that the Father didn't see the son as being ALIVE until the moment of his return to the Father?

You missed the whole jist of the parable.

the son left.

He hit rock bottom because he missed his fathers things why? because he has nothing in himself. when you have all God gives you, and that is gone, you KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE POOR AND HOPLELESS

This caused him to return.

a son will ALWAYS return, because when they leave the father, HE SUFFERS SEVER LOSS. greater than if he had never been a son before.

I don't know. maybe you do not have God and do not realize what great riches we have in christ, thus would not miss it if you left? thats the ONLY way I can come to a conclusion why you or anyone would thank a person would lose faith, or want to go back to the world. they have not experienced what God gives ALL who he adopts. for in my mind, there is no other reason anyone would belief such things

I left God for 5 years. i hit that rock bottom. I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A PRODIGAL.

 

[dcontroversal]

You missed the whole jist of the parable.

the son left.

He hit rock bottom because he missed his fathers things why? because he has nothing in himself. when you have all God gives you, and that is gone, you KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE POOR AND HOPLELESS

This caused him to return.

a son will ALWAYS return, because when they leave the father, HE SUFFERS SEVER LOSS. greater than if he had never been a son before.

I don't know. maybe you do not have God and do not realize what great riches we have in christ, thus would not miss it if you left? thats the ONLY way I can come to a conclusion why you or anyone would thank a person would lose faith, or want to go back to the world. they have not experienced what God gives ALL who he adopts. for in my mind, there is no other reason anyone would belief such things

I left God for 5 years. i hit that rock bottom. I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A PRODIGAL.

Amen, been there and done that as well....The just WILL fall 7 times YET shall HE RISE UP.......blows my mind how many people place their eternal salvation in their own hands while rejecting the complete workings and faith of Jesus and his ability to FINISH what HE started and complete that GOOD WORK that he begun in you......tragic for sure.....!

 

[oldhermit]

so your saying a person who continues to live in sin was saved?

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Sounds alot like james and judes warnings there to me. Not a warning one can lose salvation.

Each of these passages represent the extreme case. These passages are not talking about the Christian who sins, even at length and the repents. These passages are talking about the Christian who abandons the faith altogether and turns their back on God. For these there remains no more sacrifice. The sacrifice of Christ has now been rejected by them and means no more to them that the hog slaughtered on the altar. For these there awaits only the judgment of God.

Yet in both results, the person was still saved (not condemned) It was their reward which was burned, not them.

EG, you knowfull well this is not what these texts are saying.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Hmm. So he is speaking of better things for those who are saved. Where is the loss of salvation here?

Can you not see the difference between the third party group of "those who" in verses four through six and the second person group of the "you beloved" in verse nine? These are two separate groups of Christians demonstrating two different types of behavior and suffer two different fates.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

If Christ is our high priest. how can we lose salvation. If he is our hope. and he can not lie. then how can we lose salvation (since salvation SOLELY relys on Him and not ourselves)

if we can lose salvation, we have no hope. our hope is in self not god. and our high priest has failed.

End of story.

Only in the levitical preisthood is their no hope in eternal life, because in the levitical priesthood, Sin could not be forgiven until the sacrifice was made.

The whole context of Heb 6 is saying salvation can be lost (which the law states) puts jesus to shame, it says his death was not sufficient

You are arguing we cannot loose our salvation. These text tell us we can but the choice is ours. God will nor force our obedience but he will punish the disobedient servant. God does not force choices on us but clearly the choices we make have eternal consequences.

Heb 3 speaks of those who left Egypt. but left in a heart of unbelief, thus were never saved. The author is telling us to make sure we are of pure faith, not of the faith of those who left egypt in a heart of unbelief. and thus never entered the promised land.

No loss of salvation here

heb 4 says we who truly believe WILL enter his rest (no iff about it) if we do not have a heart of belief, but a heart of unbelief like they did, we will never enter his rest.

so not sure where your getting your info from. but heb 3 and 4 does not answer the question of how there is no hope of we are not assured salvation. It supports it.

Chapters 3 and 4 are offered as an example to us. This is why he concludes in chapter four by saying, "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Eg, I really think this has gone far enough. If this does not convince you I cannot think of anything that will.

 

[SarahM777]

You missed the whole jist of the parable.

the son left.

He hit rock bottom because he missed his fathers things why? because he has nothing in himself. when you have all God gives you, and that is gone, you KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE POOR AND HOPLELESS

This caused him to return.

a son will ALWAYS return, because when they leave the father, HE SUFFERS SEVER LOSS. greater than if he had never been a son before.

I don't know. maybe you do not have God and do not realize what great riches we have in christ, thus would not miss it if you left? thats the ONLY way I can come to a conclusion why you or anyone would thank a person would lose faith, or want to go back to the world. they have not experienced what God gives ALL who he adopts. for in my mind, there is no other reason anyone would belief such things

I left God for 5 years. i hit that rock bottom. I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A PRODIGAL.

Because God NEVER EVER makes us into robots. You believe God made you into a robot. You believe God has programed you to never ever walk away. How is that in any way shape or form true love that the Father is asking of us? Boiled down to brass tacks you can NOT do anything else but be FORCED to love Him. Is that really the kind of love the Father is seeking from us? Really? The Father is seeking a WILLING HEART not a heart that is programmed to only do what it programmed to do. If that is what God wanted us to do in the beginning He would never have left it to a choice in the garden.

 

[SarahM777]

You missed the whole jist of the parable.

the son left.

He hit rock bottom because he missed his fathers things why? because he has nothing in himself. when you have all God gives you, and that is gone, you KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE POOR AND HOPLELESS

This caused him to return.

a son will ALWAYS return, because when they leave the father, HE SUFFERS SEVER LOSS. greater than if he had never been a son before.

I don't know. maybe you do not have God and do not realize what great riches we have in christ, thus would not miss it if you left? thats the ONLY way I can come to a conclusion why you or anyone would thank a person would lose faith, or want to go back to the world. they have not experienced what God gives ALL who he adopts. for in my mind, there is no other reason anyone would belief such things

I left God for 5 years. i hit that rock bottom. I KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A PRODIGAL.

If it is not possible then you should be able to PROVE it by ALL the scriptures and the matter and not a verse here and there taken out of context. If is NOT POSSIBLE for a believer to walk away PROVE IT FROM SCRIPTURE.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Didn't say anything about the after life and I suggest you read Job......Satan has the ability to touch the flesh and even kill if God allows it........Do you even study or just regurgitate the opinions of men...?

No I do study and I let the Holy Spirit guide men, not other men.
Yes I know the book of Job but what you are doing now is comparing a situation where God was allowing satan to test Job's faith. That has nothing to do with a person who continues to walk a sinful lifestyle when we are told multiple times in the bible a person can not do and have eternal life both. So your comparison is off the mark as it is two separate situations.
There is absolutely no comparison on the subject that Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 5 and Job !!!

More blindness to the truth...........!

No blindness at all unless you are talking about self when it comes to what I said about obeying now for salvation, as after you die you no longer have that chance.
The parable Jesus gave of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a clear example of this, as the rich man died in sin of selfishness. When he saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom he asked for Abraham's help to him, and then asked Abraham to send somebody to his 5 brothers to warn them. Both times Abraham tells him no that they should have obeyed Moses and prophets, and because he didn't and his brothers if they continue to disobey their words will also be sent to torment.

The same applies to us as we have the Lord's teachings and the rest of the NT writings to go by and obey, and if you choose not to then torment is where you will be sent and not to eternal life......

 

[valiant]

[SUP]26[/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Here the writer was speaking to Jews who were considering whether to respond to Christ or avoid persecution by remaining Jews. He says now that they have heard of Christ they have no alternative. It is Christ or judgment. The old sacrifices for sin are no longer valid.

speak up the Christian who has never sinned wilfully. We have all sinned wilfully after being saved. What then is the consequence? If we have received the knowledge of Christian truth we cannot look back to the old sacrifices for sin because they look to the old dispensation which is no longer valid to those who know of Christ. If we want to be forgiven for wilful sins we can only look to Christ's sacrifice for sin on our behalf. That is the only sacrifice which is now valid..

 

[dcontroversal]

No I do study and I let the Holy Spirit guide men, not other men.
Yes I know the book of Job but what you are doing now is comparing a situation where God was allowing satan to test Job's faith. That has nothing to do with a person who continues to walk a sinful lifestyle when we are told multiple times in the bible a person can not do and have eternal life both. So your comparison is off the mark as it is two separate situations.
There is absolutely no comparison on the subject that Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 5 and Job !!!





No blindness at all unless you are talking about self when it comes to what I said about obeying now for salvation, as after you die you no longer have that chance.
The parable Jesus gave of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is a clear example of this, as the rich man died in sin of selfishness. When he saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom he asked for Abraham's help to him, and then asked Abraham to send somebody to his 5 brothers to warn them. Both times Abraham tells him no that they should have obeyed Moses and prophets, and because he didn't and his brothers if they continue to disobey their words will also be sent to torment.

The same applies to us as we have the Lord's teachings and the rest of the NT writings to go by and obey, and if you choose not to then torment is where you will be sent and not to eternal life......

Your missing the point because you cannot see past your own philosophy bro........and again you cannot accept the truth bro because it contradicts your view and shoots holes in your theology. Paul told the church to cut one lose for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit may be saved...it is quite simple and the context blares loudly.....not going to argue with you...if you want to keep trusting yourself go ahead....I will trust Jesus to finish what he started and the fact that I am saved to the uttermost and my life is hid within Christ......The work Jesus completed is sufficient to save me and keep me saved even if and when I sin......unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.....I have the righteousness of GOD without the LAW applied unto me by belief...Jesus took ALL of my sins upon him on the cross...if you feel you need to keep re-crucifying Jesus over and over again then have a ball.......

And to add...NO where does it indicate the rich man was ever saved...and exactly the opposite is revealed as he never believed the word to begin with...but this too you are oblivious to...