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A verse pulled out of CONTEXT does not mean that the passage is speaking of what you want it to. You LEFT OFF VERSE 16.
IN CONTEXT
Romans 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: [SUP]12 [/SUP]not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP][d][/SUP][SUP]13 [/SUP]Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! [SUP]15 [/SUP]For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]16[/SUP]It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? [SUP]23 [/SUP]What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— [SUP]24 [/SUP]even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? [SUP]25 [/SUP]As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[SUP][i][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[SUP][j][/SUP]
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[SUP][k][/SUP]
[SUP]29 [/SUP]It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[SUP][l][/SUP]
It plainly says it is NOT be human EFFORT or DESIRE. It does NOT talk about choice.
And you left out the passages that CLEARLY says that one CAN harden their heart.
Proverbs 28
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble.
Hebrews 3
[SUP]7[/SUP]So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]12[/SUP]See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? [SUP]17 [/SUP]And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? [SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
By the Hebrews PLAINLY and clearly says BROTHERS AND SISTERS See to it that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness
A brother and sister CAN ONLY BE A BELIEVER.
IN CONTEXT
Romans 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: [SUP]12 [/SUP]not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP][d][/SUP][SUP]13 [/SUP]Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! [SUP]15 [/SUP]For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]16[/SUP]It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? [SUP]23 [/SUP]What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— [SUP]24 [/SUP]even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? [SUP]25 [/SUP]As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[SUP][i][/SUP]
[SUP]26 [/SUP]and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[SUP][j][/SUP]
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[SUP][k][/SUP]
[SUP]29 [/SUP]It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[SUP][l][/SUP]
It plainly says it is NOT be human EFFORT or DESIRE. It does NOT talk about choice.
And you left out the passages that CLEARLY says that one CAN harden their heart.
Proverbs 28
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble.
Hebrews 3
[SUP]7[/SUP]So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]12[/SUP]See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? [SUP]17 [/SUP]And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? [SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
By the Hebrews PLAINLY and clearly says BROTHERS AND SISTERS See to it that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness
A brother and sister CAN ONLY BE A BELIEVER.
As usual you make rash statements not based on Scripture. 'He who has the Son HAS LIFE --these things have I written to you so that you may KNOW that you HAVE (possess) eternal life'. So anyone who has Jesus living within them HAS eternal life. If your ton of Scriptures disagree with that then it is clear you have them wrong.
It is actually one thing to have eternal life and another to have the assurance of it. Many do have eternal life but do not have the assurance. In fact you turn things upside down. The question is, how could a man possibly live as described by John if he did not have eternal life. It would be totally beyond him. For eternal life is the life of Christ within him (1 john 5.12).
NO DOUBT YOU WILL PROVIDE THE SCRIPTURE THAT says THAT?
you are slack in your interpretation of Scripture. 1 Peter 1 9 does not mention eternal life. what it says is that when you believe you will be saved. 'receiving the end of your faith even the salvation of your souls.'
It is actually one thing to have eternal life and another to have the assurance of it. Many do have eternal life but do not have the assurance. In fact you turn things upside down. The question is, how could a man possibly live as described by John if he did not have eternal life. It would be totally beyond him. For eternal life is the life of Christ within him (1 john 5.12).
NO DOUBT YOU WILL PROVIDE THE SCRIPTURE THAT says THAT?
you are slack in your interpretation of Scripture. 1 Peter 1 9 does not mention eternal life. what it says is that when you believe you will be saved. 'receiving the end of your faith even the salvation of your souls.'
To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidentally fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21 not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9.
The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture.
*In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine born again believer.
Though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about didn’t have salvation (thorns and thistles and falling away do not accompany salvation).
Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" and from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture.
*In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine born again believer.
Though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about didn’t have salvation (thorns and thistles and falling away do not accompany salvation).
Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
You left OUT this part of the passage
[SUP]12[/SUP]See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
A brother and sister is a BELIEVER not an unbeliever. The writer plainly writes that a brother or sister can have their harden by sin's deceitfulness.
Just because the writer is writing to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in this very large group of Jewish Christians is a genuine Christian, as I showed in post #385. 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways' - 'could not enter in because of unbelief' - 'destroyed those who did not believe' - 'distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF' does not equal saved. They were not all genuine Christians. The writer does not infallibly know who the elect are. However, he does know one must hold fast to the word (persevere) to be saved – which is why he tells them just that. It seems to me that the difference we are having over these passages is that I do not read them as if the author had exact knowledge of each recipients ontological status.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that not all Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held onto their confidence steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that not all Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held onto their confidence steadfast to the end. These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
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E
you will not find me doing evil,
....... your words Kenny, sin is evil Kenny!, if a man says he is without sin he is a liar and the truth isn't in him.....Where do lies come from Kenny?
1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He does not realize ALL sin is evil in the eyes of a Holy and Righteous God.
He does not do evil. he just messes up every now and then. This PROVES he has never repented.
E
sorry you do not Know God very well.
Maybe thats why you think people can walk away from someone who gave them everything and NEVER lets them down?
Of Course God gave many warnings, Many walking around thinking they are his people are not. He needs to warn them that if they do not have true faith, they will fall away.
Why will they fall away? the world gives them what God had not given yet. why? Because they were NEVER SAVED.
E
lol. You mean the same John who wrote these things?
1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
with the word KNOW being in the PERFECT TENSE. and the verb Have being in the present tense. (IE it is not a wish washy knowledge of maybe I have something, but a full assurance in faith you have it. no questions or doubts) Unlike you. who does not have the perfect knowledge you have it, because your faith is wishy washy, It is in yourself NOT GOD.
How can one know in a sense which is perfected (without doubt) that they HAVE eternal life if they do not have it yet?
Just like with the rest of scripture. Yuo twist and turn things, Make it contradict itself. and turn it into a no hope. no knowing, no believing word from man, and not the perfect word of God.
E
I'm still trying to figure out how that remain in the faith translates into being a work to save ourselves. 
I always thought that remaining in the faith is to continue in TRUSTING HIM. I thought that was pretty simple and self explanatory. Or am I missing something on that?
I always thought that remaining in the faith is to continue in TRUSTING HIM. I thought that was pretty simple and self explanatory. Or am I missing something on that?
Sounds like a wishy washy faith to me (which is no faith at all) if you have to worry about falling out of it. Thats not faith. Thats foolishness.
B
To 'sin willfully' in the context is to remain and continue in unbelief after you have heard or received the knowledge of the truth. The truth is that there is no more sacrifice for sins other than the one that was made by Christ, God's lamb. Example: If I was to hear the message of the gospel in my hometown of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and came under the conviction of that message, that means I have received the message. It does not mean that I have trusted it to be the truth. Many receive the message but have not trusted in the truth of it because it reveals the person of the truth 'Christ and him crucified'. Those who 'sin willfully' have not received the person of the truth and will eventually draw back into perdition.
E
How can you get this from that passage.
The people in Egypt had God, God did all those great miracles. He made pharoah look like a fool. They even put the passover blood on their door frame.
What they did not have is saving faith. The author of hebrews makes this clear.
Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'
So your telling me these people who have not Known the ways of God, and ALWAYS went astray in their hearts lost salvation? How can this be?
He is warning those in the church who have god (just like they did in association with moses) yet have NEVER KNOWN GOD, or HIS WAYS, because they are ALWAYS IN UNBELIEF.
The people in Egypt had God, God did all those great miracles. He made pharoah look like a fool. They even put the passover blood on their door frame.
What they did not have is saving faith. The author of hebrews makes this clear.
Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'
So your telling me these people who have not Known the ways of God, and ALWAYS went astray in their hearts lost salvation? How can this be?
He is warning those in the church who have god (just like they did in association with moses) yet have NEVER KNOWN GOD, or HIS WAYS, because they are ALWAYS IN UNBELIEF.