Hebrews 6:1-6

[kennethcadwell]

While the first part of that statement is true,that will not and can NOT change the truth of the scriptures. You're feelings and experiences DO NOT change the truth.

Sorry you do not know me that well. I take God's warnings about departing the faith seriously,they are the warnings of a loving Father to abide in Christ,remain in the faith,and to be able to test that faith to see where I am at to correct my path. They are there so I DON'T walk away.

And again the warnings are about doing damage to,trashing out,throwing away,shipwrecking etc etc our faith. No one will be declared righteous in UNBELIEF. If you go into unbelief you are NOT declared righteous but unrighteous. The warning are MEANINGLESS if it wasn't possible. And the warnings CAN NOT be to unbelievers because they have NO MEANING for unbelievers because they were never His to BEGIN with

You know one thing that gets me is all of these who place eternal life as an actual physical possession of ours right now do away with a ton of scriptures.

One main passage they also seem to overlook is 1 John chapters 2-4 where John breaks down and says how a person can be assured that they have eternal life abiding in them. How can a person have eternal life as a physical possession before their walk even matches what the Apostle John says in these chapters? That and how the Lord said we have to do the will of the God first in our lives before receiving eternal life.
There are a number of scriptures that show our walk in the faith comes first, then physical possession of eternal life comes as the ending result of our faith (1 Peter 1:9).

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Yes and what John is referring to is all that he said from chapters 2 through 4, which are all a part of our walk in the faith. Apostle John says a number of things in which our walk must match with, and he says there in 5:13 that you may know !!!
Know = mental assurance of having it (not physical possession)

 

[Nico07]

What about King Saul? He was given the kingdom,he was given the Holy Spirit,he prophsied by the Holy spirit and YET HE FELL into unbelief.

What about Judas? He too was filled with the Holy Spirit was casting demons.

And where does scripture ever say an unbeliever ever receives the Holy Spirit?

There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being upon someone and filling someone I believe. I think in Saul's case the Spirit was upon when he prophesied. And I don't recall seeing Scripture where it says that Judas was filled with the Spirit. Simply that Jesus gave authority to the disciples. I am open for correction and thank you for hearing me out.

 

[SarahM777]

You know one thing that gets me is all of these who place eternal life as an actual physical possession of ours right now do away with a ton of scriptures.

One main passage they also seem to overlook is 1 John chapters 2-4 where John breaks down and says how a person can be assured that they have eternal life abiding in them. How can a person have eternal life as a physical possession before their walk even matches what the Apostle John says in these chapters? That and how the Lord said we have to do the will of the God first in our lives before receiving eternal life.
There are a number of scriptures that show our walk in the faith comes first, then physical possession of eternal life comes as the ending result of our faith (1 Peter 1:9).

I'm still trying to figure out how that remain in the faith translates into being a work to save ourselves.

I always thought that remaining in the faith is to continue in TRUSTING HIM. I thought that was pretty simple and self explanatory. Or am I missing something on that?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being upon someone and filling someone I believe. I think in Saul's case the Spirit was upon when he prophesied. And I don't recall seeing Scripture where it says that Judas was filled with the Spirit. Simply that Jesus gave authority to the disciples. I am open for correction and thank you for hearing me out.

i agree with the bold highlighted text, btw nice catch

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being upon someone and filling someone I believe. I think in Saul's case the Spirit was upon when he prophesied. And I don't recall seeing Scripture where it says that Judas was filled with the Spirit. Simply that Jesus gave authority to the disciples. I am open for correction and thank you for hearing me out.

Exactly.....and Judas was a devil from the beginning according to Jesus........

 

[kennethcadwell]

Where do lies come from Kenny? is loving someone lying to them or speaking truth?

I know where lies come from, but the thing you must still except is the fact that do you let sins control you or do you by the Holy Spirit learn to have control over sins?

Do you out of love and obedience repent/confess of a sin when you commit one, or do you just continue to live however you want because you think you can't change anyway?

Do you walk in the Spirit, or do you walk in the flesh?

Your answer to these 3 questions will determine if you are a willful sinner or not, as if you answer you let sins control you, don't confess them, and continue to commit them then the bible shows you are still condemned for still being under the law. For the bible says the reason the law was given was for those who transgress it.
It is amazing how people want to call people who speak on keeping the commandments of God out of love in the faith legalists and under the law when the bible says it is for those who transgress it.

 

[Angela53510]

So this debate continues on and on. I think the middle position is the best.

God is the one who saves us. He draws us to himself and reveals himself and then saves us when we believe!

Once we believe, we obey God and follow him the rest of our lives. So not works, but obedience coming out of a love for God and what he has done.

I do not believe that God will ever let go of me. But I also believe that I have to walk on that narrow way towards him. I'm not sure what would happen if I turned around and walked down the broad road that leads to destruction. It has never been an issue. Although a few times in my life, I certainly sat down on that road, and did not move in either direction. Those were the spiritual desert years. God was there, but I was not able to respond. Because of the pain I was in.

I trust God totally to keep me in his care. I don't know about people who say they are Christians and fall away. Were they ever truly saved?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:19

I think this Old Testament verse sums it up for me.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths." Prov. 3:5-6

 

[valiant]

YOU HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING what that passage really means. That passage is very clear HE WILL NOT DENY HIMSELF.
His word is so clear that NO ONE will be saved in unbelief and HE WILL NOT CHANGE IT. He can not and will not deny that.
There is NO WHERE that ever says anyone in UNBELIEF WILL EVER BE SAVED IN THAT UNBELIEF.

But there are many passages which make clear that Jesus Christ will maintain our faith to the end, because HE is doing the saving. We cannot save ourselves. I presume at some stage according to you He will drop the man in your picture and leave him to die..

 

[valiant]

Yes and what John is referring to is all that he said from chapters 2 through 4, which are all a part of our walk in the faith. Apostle John says a number of things in which our walk must match with, and he says there in 5:13 that you may know !!!
Know = mental assurance of having it (not physical possession)

If you have mental assurance that you have eternal life because your whole trust in in Jesus Christ then you have it in experience and physically possess it in as far as it is physical. In fact of course you possess eternal life in your soul and spirit, not in your body.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you have mental assurance that you have eternal life because your whole trust in in Jesus Christ then you have it in experience and physically possess it in as far as it is physical. In fact of course you possess eternal life in your soul and spirit, not in your body.

No physical possession comes at the day of redemption when the Lord comes back and gathers us all to Himself and transforms us into our new eternal spiritual bodies. Because the bodies of flesh and bone we have now can not inherit the kingdom of heaven, therefore the reasoning for the transforming in a twinkling of an eye.
We must be put transformed into new spiritual bodies to receive the actual physical possession of it, which is why Apostle Paul says multiple times to continue in, stay firm, and hold fast in the faith to receive eternal life. For those who walk away from the faith no longer have eternal life abiding in them do to that disobedience/unbelief.....

 

[valiant]

No physical possession comes at the day of redemption when the Lord comes back and gathers us all to Himself and transforms us into our new eternal spiritual bodies. Because the bodies of flesh and bone we have now can not inherit the kingdom of heaven, therefore the reasoning for the transforming in a twinkling of an eye.
We must be put transformed into new spiritual bodies to receive the actual physical possession of it, which is why Apostle Paul says multiple times to continue in, stay firm, and hold fast in the faith to receive eternal life. For those who walk away from the faith no longer have eternal life abiding in them do to that disobedience/unbelief.....

when you receive eternal life it becomes your life, and by definition it is eternal. If you could lose it, it would not be eternal. That eternal life in with respect to soul and spirit. The body will die, but soul and spirit live on in Christ. They enjoy eternal life. At the resurrection they will receive a new spiritual body. But eternal life was already theirs.

 

[kennethcadwell]

when you receive eternal life it becomes your life, and by definition it is eternal. If you could lose it, it would not be eternal. That eternal life in with respect to soul and spirit. The body will die, but soul and spirit live on in Christ. They enjoy eternal life. At the resurrection they will receive a new spiritual body. But eternal life was already theirs.

That is why you don't understand how it is just a mental assurance of having it, and not an actual physical possession.
The bible shows we have assurance of having it based on continuing to walk in the faith;

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
(Life that is to come=eternal life)




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

when you receive eternal life it becomes your life, and by definition it is eternal. If you could lose it, it would not be eternal. That eternal life in with respect to soul and spirit. The body will die, but soul and spirit live on in Christ. They enjoy eternal life. At the resurrection they will receive a new spiritual body. But eternal life was already theirs.

[h=1]James 5:19-20[/h]19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[valiant]

That is why you don't understand how it is just a mental assurance of having it, and not an actual physical possession.
The bible shows we have assurance of having it based on continuing to walk in the faith;

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
(Life that is to come=eternal life)




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

It was Jesus who made clear that we HAVE eternal life NOW. (John 3.16; 5.24; 10.28). And also John in 1 John 5.13.

Paul was thinking of the age to come when that eternal life which we now enjoy results in our entering into the everlasting kingdom. You must discern the differences in Scripture,

The same is true of salvation. We who are HIS have been saved (Tit 3.5). Our salvation is guaranteed from beginning to end. That is why we are now saved ones (Eph 2.8-9). And it then goes on as a process as we are being saved (1 Cor 1.18). which looks forward to when our salvation is completed. You must discern the tenses .

 

[valiant]

James 5:19-20

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soulfrom death and cover a multitude of sins.

yes because when Christians go seriously astray they are in danger of premature death as 1 Cor 11.32 makes clear. But it is so that they may NOT be condemned with the world. The one who is in time to save them from death by turning them from their sinful ways clearly saves a soul from death.

 

[SarahM777]

But there are many passages which make clear that Jesus Christ will maintain our faith to the end, because HE is doing the saving. We cannot save ourselves. I presume at some stage according to you He will drop the man in your picture and leave him to die..

Please quote them within context that shows that Jesus will maintain our faith.

 

[valiant]

Yes and what John is referring to is all that he said from chapters 2 through 4, which are all a part of our walk in the faith. Apostle John says a number of things in which our walk must match with, and he says there in 5:13 that you may know !!!
Know = mental assurance of having it (not physical possession)

But HAVE means 'physical' possession

 

[valiant]

Please quote them within context that shows that Jesus will maintain our faith.

I wouldn't waste my time. You just close your eyes to anything that does not agree with you

 

[SarahM777]

But there are many passages which make clear that Jesus Christ will maintain our faith to the end, because HE is doing the saving. We cannot save ourselves. I presume at some stage according to you He will drop the man in your picture and leave him to die..

Where does Jesus ever say that He stops you from making the CHOICE to NOT follow Him? Where does scripture say you no longer have the CHOICE to follow a false prophet? Does God put a magic fence around you so you won't do that? God NEVER EVER took away our freedom to choose. God NEVER forces us to love Him in return. To love Him and remain in Him is a CHOICE. God will allow people to harden their hearts to Him. Hardening one's heart comes from the choices one makes.
There are no scriptures that say a BELIEVER CAN NOT harden his heart. THAT IS A CHOICE that one makes.