Sabbath

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prove-all

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But then, indeed, when you did not know God[in egypt, in sin],

[you served] those which by nature are not gods. men were worshiped, who thought they where gods.

But now after you have known God[[his covent people], or rather are known by God[given holydays],

how is it that you [turn again] to the weak and beggarly elements[not Gods but worlds],

to which you desire again to be in bondage? [bondage to christmas shopping mall bills more like.]
 
S

Skgrim

Guest
God's law provides for the good life and identifies sin, while grace provides for the forgiveness of sin and assistance to obey the law and reap the benefits.
Understanding and identifying sin, then, becomes central in understanding the law and grace relationship. Biblically, we find no definition of sin without law.
"For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans:3:20). It is the law, then, that identifies sin: "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John:3:4, KJV). Does this mean that under grace there is no more sin—no more law? But, since grace involves forgiveness of sin—"through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved" (Acts:15:11)—how would this be possible? And how do we deal with Paul's statement in Romans:3:31, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law"?
As we search the Scriptures together, we should find a clear answer from the Word, Jesus Christ, who made grace possible. He also gave the law—the guidelines for a wholesome way of life, the opposite of sin. So what does this statement mean: "He will magnify the law and make it honorable" (Isaiah:42:21, KJV) or "The Lord was pleased for His righteousness' sake to make the law great and glorious" (same verse, NASV)?
 
S

Skgrim

Guest
The Sabbath law says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" (Exodus:20:8; compare Hebrews:4:4, 9-10). Not observing the Sabbath led to death by stoning (Numbers:15:32-36








).
However, under grace it is different. Those who do not observe the Sabbath can repent (be truly sorry from the heart and show it by their actions). Upon repentance, God forgives and the death penalty is removed, having been paid by Jesus Christ.
If, however, someone begins to "obey" physically just to save his skin—an outward pretense of repentance only, not with a repentant heart, not truly sorry—this one is actually choosing the penalty of death, removing himself from grace. Obeying now cannot wipe out past sins—only after real repentance will Christ's blood cover those sins and remove their penalty.
On the other hand, one who chooses to repent of sinning and begins to keep the law (in this example, the Sabbath), chooses and receives grace—not death. This, then, is "the law of grace," to repent, receive forgiveness and to immediately start obeying the law one has disobeyed. This means to return to a life of obedience to God's royal law.
However, if, after returning to a life of obedience, one again chooses to break the law (to sin) as a way of life—that one is choosing death—eternal death. That is because he has already been under grace and now rejects it through unrepentant disobedience and a decision to not change (to not stop sinning).
In Romans:6:1 the apostle Paul asked the question, "Shall we continue in sin [disobeying God's law—keeping on sinning] that grace may abound [an attitude that more sinning will summon more grace]?" God, through Paul, gives a quick and decisive answer, "Certainly not!" (verse 2).
The Bible here is emphatic about the need to quit sinning—to repent—to stop disobeying God's law and immediately begin obeying it—through grace. Again, grace includes God's forgiveness and faith-filled help to obey.
Jesus paid for all sin! In short, He purchased sin. He bought sin with His life. He therefore owns sin's penalty—death. So He has the right to forgive sin and its penalty. Thus He also has the right, the authority, to set the conditions for forgiveness and the removal of the penalty. This He has done, according to His Father's will, through grace!
 
S

Skgrim

Guest
Jesus, the Word, summed it up profoundly in the last part of Deuteronomy:30:19: "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."
All sin, unrepented of, results in death. Grace is undeserved pardon of the sin of which one has repented. But there is no forgiveness if one chooses not to repent. In this way Jesus' condition for forgiveness provides each individual with the choice of eternal life or eternal death.
Grace is available, and as a free gift, but one must choose to receive grace and continue in it. God's love is unconditional: "For God so loved the world [humanity] that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John:3:16).
God's love is unconditional; His grace demonstrates His merciful love. The unspeakable opportunity God provides comes through belief in Him and His salvation. Sincere belief in God includes obedience—for even the demons believe, but do not obey (James:2:19).
If someone says that it is impossible to obey and please God, that person makes Jesus and the Father out to be liars, for it is written, "With God all things are possible" (Matthew:19:26
 
S

Skgrim

Guest
Read the scriptures your answers are there. These are not my words but Gods I didn't write these scriptures
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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'The Fourth Reich':

“People have even begun talking about the ‘Fourth Reich,’ a reference to
the Third Reich of Adolf Hitler,” states the article’s introduction
German Power in the Age of the Euro Crisis - SPIEGEL ONLINE

A “reich,” or empire, refers to a dominion, with a central power
exerting control over many different peoples

Here are some statements from politicians, thinkers and writers across the European Union highlighted by Spiegel:

■“German capital dominates Europe and it profits from the misery in Greece.” —Manlois Glezos, Member of European Parliament for Syriza and Greek war hero

■“It is as though my country were experiencing the consequences of war.” —Greek Culture Minister Nikos Xydakis

■The euro “rightly or wrongly” is reminiscent of “tank divisions of yore.” —The Fourth Reich: How Germany Subdued Europe, by renown and well-respected Italian journalists Vittorio Feltri and Gennaro Sangiuliano

■Italy has begun drawing “a line from the barbarian invasions via Bismarck and Hitler to Merkel.” —German expert Luigi Reitani at a 2014 conference

■“Bismarck united the German principalities to rule over Europe and, in particular, France. In a shockingly similar way, Angela Merkel seeks to solve her domestic problems by foisting the economic and financial order adhered to by German conservatives onto the rest of Europe.” —Former French Economics Minister Arnaud Montebourg

■Germany is “increasingly pursuing politics of power and of hidden expansion.” —Leftist French intellectual Emmanuel Todd

■“We are in Europe what the Americans are in the world: the unloved leading power” —German Chancellor Angela Merkel

■“This is not a monetary union. It is far more like an empire.” —Financial Times, May 2012

As Spiegel notes, these type of comments are becoming increasingly common

Spiegel explains how the design of the euro automatically put Germany in this leading position, paving the way for a rich, export-focused Germany. But this new power has turned Germany’s head. “There is a new tone in Germany,” the article states. “It is one that no longer abides by the noble customs of diplomacy. Whispering, suggesting and hinting have been replaced by ranting and blustering.”

Merkel’s policies have played a key role in forming this German Europe. “Early on in the euro crisis, she developed ideas for so-called benchmarking,” the article continued. “The concept called for European countries to be measured in several categories against the best in that category, which was often Germany. In this way, a German Europe would be created.”
modern Europe.

“Germany is once again a paradox. It is strong and weak at the same time—just like in the 19th century after unification, it seems powerful from the outside but feels vulnerable to many Germans,” wrote Hans Kundnani, head of research at the European Council on Foreign Relations. “It does not want to ‘lead’ and resists debt mutualization, but at the same time it seeks to remake Europe in its own image in order to make it more ‘competitive.’”

“Whereas Germany has dominated Europe economically during the euro crisis, i
t has remained a foreign policy dwarf,” writes Spiegel.

After concluding that Germany has “a significant say in the fates of millions of people from other countries,” Spiegel warns that “uch power creates a significant amount of responsibility, but the government and other policymakers nevertheless sometimes behave as though they were leading a small country.”
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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God worked 6 days, On the 7th day he [made] by resting, putting [His] presence in it.

all of Gods plan for mans redemption is shown in his holy days
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960731

The Passover and days of unlevened bread
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960731

God accepts the lambs blood, the wavesheaf offering
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ifice-christ-offered-god-man.html#post1978804

Feast of Trumpets , comming to earth near you soon, at the last thrump.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960735

Day of Atonement, or the Fast, a memorial, not a shadow not completed, to come
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960749

The High Priest—Type of Christ
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960834

the feast of tabernacles, tempory booths,only passing through the land[come out world]
pictures in the 1000 years,

This eighth day, technically a separate feast,
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960851

the Day of Judgment
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hs-realities-about-easter-13.html#post1952339


Re: Myths and Realities about Easter, or christmas or other man made tradations

,
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded
to a thousand generations; this still valid, way under 1000 generations still.

My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-3.html#post1960071

all the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory,
belong sole to Israel (Romans 9:4).

they did not allways keep the sabbath his people of Isreals ,but paid the price for it dearly,
even now God has hiden his eyes from there decendents, but still remembers them.

-God made [wine] so we could celebrate on [his] holy days, with merryment and gladness

the reason why God put them in egypt, was to show us and teach his plan for man by his feasts,
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960500

Sabbaths was Prior to the Law of Moses,
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-40.html#post1977259

and the faith they did not have, and not entered into the promised land, was in
his Sabbaths promise and sign, and tried collecting manna on the sabbath,

he proved 5 days his word when it fell, 6th day it did not rot, another sign from God.
the 7th day,a test they failed and had no faith in Gods words, just like today.


were all baptized unto Moses,all drink the same spiritual drink:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/110085-sabbath-4.html#post1960621

A whole Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. Psalm 92

the Congregation [was] the Church in the wilderness.
most of the world has no idea who Isreal is,

Re: The world's view of Israel, is blinded and decieved.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/109895-worlds-view-israel.html#post1954858
 
Feb 7, 2013
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The Sabbath may best be done justice if you do the works of the father. Jesus went about doing his fathers work and people said you should not be doing this this day. Jesus gave them an answer. Jesus also said how to observe. You should have your tradition but if you must break the tradition because circumstances call or god calls then the spirit will guide you. Something I feel that's good is we should make a homemade temple or shrine in our house in a designated spot. If we can't go to church have our own holy place for reverence or prayer( Ideas...)
'Peace be with you friend', for the beginning of your post is plainly truthful and according to the Gospel and i am encouraged.

However the second part about 'a homemade temple or shrine in our house in a designated spot', is of 'pagan practices' done according to carnality/fleshly manner, which 'does what is pleasing to it's sight', as to similarly also say; "I feel that's good." And GOD's Spiritual Kingdom is 'not' based on our 'selfish feelings' and 'desires' of carnality. That is why Christians must be in HOLY BIBLE sound doctrine knowledge learned 'spiritual' and that is why also, i am able to 'help' you understand the 'depth' of them that are 'written'.

And it is written for the change of our thinking to 'spirituality' that;

"Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world but rather allow GOD to renew your thinking."


Please take note of the 'underlined words', that they are the 'commandments' of our LORD JESUS CHRIST through HIS 'instrument', Apostle Paul.

In the New Testament and as we are 'Spiritually taught' by the HOLY SPIRIT and are learned 'spiritual', we first of all know that 'our body is now the 'Temple or Shrine of the Living GOD' and we only need, as CHRIST taught us written in the Gospel, a quiet and locked room for 'reverence' and 'prayer' and we will be rewarded for what is practiced/done in 'secret'.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, forgive you and bless you in 'spirit' and 'truth', in order to worship HIM the way HE requires according to the written Gospel.

i say this prior to the 'word' was given in correction to you, from the Word/CHRIST of GOD and they are to encourage you, in order to 'turn back' from 'carnal deception' that comes from a 'human heart'. And that Word is, as it is written;

"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body."
 
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TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

I can only see this as saying, we should enter into the Sabbath day rest as God did, It isn't just a spiritual thing because it tells us to cease from our works.
 
Feb 7, 2013
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Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
No, it is not saying to 'cease at all', according to verse 11, but;

"Let us labor/strive therefore to enter into rest, ................................................"

Fair enough verse 10 justifies your claim about the Sabbath that all must 'cease from work as GOD did' and is true, bur please tell us about the 'labor/strive to enter that place of rest' mentioned last in verse 11, also after all other verses ahead?

The context is actually saying that those who labored/strive for the Kingdom of GOD here on earth without 'rest' and 'asleep' when their time is up, they will find 'rest in Heaven' and that is where the New Testament 'Sabbath' is, with the Saints and CHRIST and the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT and the Holy Angels.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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But then, indeed, when you did not know God[in egypt, in sin],
[you served] those which by nature are not gods. men were worshiped, who thought they where gods.
But now after you have known God[[his covent people], or rather are known by God[given holydays],
how is it that you [turn again] to the weak and beggarly elements[not Gods but worlds],
to which you desire again to be in bondage? [bondage to christmas shopping mall bills more like.]
Are you for real? There is no suggestion that Israel as a whole worshiped other gods in Egypt, and the gods spoken of are idols, not men. These words in Galatians refer to the Galatians who had been idol worshipers. Now there was some danger that they might return to the beggarly elements of their old religions, and he asks them whether they really want to go back into the bondage of avoiding foods, observing special days, being subject to pagan priests.

Through the preaching of Paul they had come to know God, they now knew Him in Jesus Christ, and were walking in fellowship with Him. And Paul then points out that this was because God had first known them. They were elect according to the fore-choosing of God. It has absolutely nothing to do with holy days or the Sabbath, except possibly as a warning against over-rating them.

Do you twist all Scriptures to suit your unscriptural views. NOWHERE in the New Testament is Sabbath worship enjoined, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20.7), and Paul warned against judging others concerning what days they observed. Slaves were in no position to follow Old Testament feasts.
 

valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
The people of whom David was speaking already observed the Sabbath. They already enjoyed that rest. Thus he could not have been speaking of the Sabbath. What was the rest in Heb 3.11? It was the rest that they could have found in the land that God gave them had they been faithful about entering Canaan. Instead they were left to wander in the wilderness still observing the Sabbath but missing the rest that God had wanted to give them.

The writer in Hebrews is speaking of Jews (who would already observe the Sabbath) who were on the verge of becoming Christians, and were being faced with the same challenge as Israel in the wilderness as to whether they would go forward in faith and find the rest promised by Jesus Christ (Matt 11.28-30)

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
The good news for Israel had been that God was offering them rest in the land of Canaan. The good news for the readers was that God was offering them rest in Christ.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Those of the Jews who had truly believed in the Messiah 'do enter into rest', the rest offered by Jesus in Matt 11.28-30. But the IF reveals that some might not enter. Those who were wavering about being committed Christians had not entered into that rest.

He then points out the folly of their position because the striving to do works was out of date. God had caused it to cease when He had stopped work on the seventh day. The idea of works being man's destiny had ceased from the foundation of the world.


Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
But those to whom it was first preached DID observe the Sabbath. God had ceased from all His works, and the same was His intention for His people. What rest was it that Israel (who did observe the Sabbath) had not entered into? It was the rest offered in the land of Canaan if they entered it in faith and obedience. Even though even that was only a shadow of the real rest (verse 8 which shows that it was not the Sabbath rest which was being spoken of).

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
The most accepted translation is that it speaks of Joshua. Are you really suggesting that Jesus Christ has not given us rest when He actually promised to in Matt 11.28-30? Triple shame on you. But if Jesus had not given them rest then clearly according to your view He had not given them the Sabbath. You defeat your own argument. (And how could David speak thus of Jesus? Show us where he did so).
His point here is that because David was speaking these words AFTER Joshua's time, it demonstrated that Joshua had not given them the final rest (he had certainly given them rest - Josh 1.13, 15; 21.44; 22.4; 23.1).

.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Yes the Christian when he enter into Christ's rest ceases from his own works. Instead He allows Christ to perform His works through him. He is no longer slaving to observe the Law. He is walking with Christ with Christ living though him. He does the works which God has foreordained that he will do (Eph 2.10). 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God Who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure. Note Romans 4.5, 'But to him WHO DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness'. He has ceased from his works as God did from His.

Then the writer addresses the wavering Jews and says, 'Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.' They are to 'labour to enter into rest' by responding in faith, and leaving the unbelief which prevents then from entering into rest. BUT THESE WERE JEWS WHO ALREADY OBSERVED THE SABBATH. Thus the rest that they are to strive to enter into cannot be the Sabbath. The rest that he wants them to enter is the rest obtainable by coming to Jesus Christ, ceasing from their own works, and trusting in Christ and His righteousness, and then allowing Him to live His resurrection life through them.

I can only see this as saying, we should enter into the Sabbath day rest as God did, It isn't just a spiritual thing because it tells us to cease from our works.
Have you not ceased from works as commanded by God (Rom 4.5; Eph 2.9; Tit 3.5; Rom 3.28)? I am sure you have otherwise you are still lost. And if you have you have entered into rest. No more works required (they will simply be the fruit of your new experience.

How do you mean 'just a spiritual thing'? It is by the Spirit that we are saved. The flesh profits nothing.
 
S

Skgrim

Guest
Really what are you doing at least I know the true Sabbath. You should really do some research! I do not care what you believe and am not trying to change the way you believe I simply put the truth out there for who ever wants to read it.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Really what are you doing at least I know the true Sabbath. You should really do some research! I do not care what you believe and am not trying to change the way you believe I simply put the truth out there for who ever wants to read it.
you mean you are putting out your opinion :)
 
Feb 7, 2015
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The people of whom David was speaking already observed the Sabbath. They already enjoyed that rest. Thus he could not have been speaking of the Sabbath. What was the rest in Heb 3.11? It was the rest that they could have found in the land that God gave them had they been faithful about entering Canaan. Instead they were left to wander in the wilderness still observing the Sabbath but missing the rest that God had wanted to give them.

The writer in Hebrews is speaking of Jews (who would already observe the Sabbath) who were on the verge of becoming Christians, and were being faced with the same challenge as Israel in the wilderness as to whether they would go forward in faith and find the rest promised by Jesus Christ (Matt 11.28-30)



The good news for Israel had been that God was offering them rest in the land of Canaan. The good news for the readers was that God was offering them rest in Christ.



Those of the Jews who had truly believed in the Messiah 'do enter into rest', the rest offered by Jesus in Matt 11.28-30. But the IF reveals that some might not enter. Those who were wavering about being committed Christians had not entered into that rest.

He then points out the folly of their position because the striving to do works was out of date. God had caused it to cease when He had stopped work on the seventh day. The idea of works being man's destiny had ceased from the foundation of the world.




But those to whom it was first preached DID observe the Sabbath. God had ceased from all His works, and the same was His intention for His people. What rest was it that Israel (who did observe the Sabbath) had not entered into? It was the rest offered in the land of Canaan if they entered it in faith and obedience. Even though even that was only a shadow of the real rest (verse 8 which shows that it was not the Sabbath rest which was being spoken of).



The most accepted translation is that it speaks of Joshua. Are you really suggesting that Jesus Christ has not given us rest when He actually promised to in Matt 11.28-30? Triple shame on you. But if Jesus had not given them rest then clearly according to your view He had not given them the Sabbath. You defeat your own argument. (And how could David speak thus of Jesus? Show us where he did so).
His point here is that because David was speaking these words AFTER Joshua's time, it demonstrated that Joshua had not given them the final rest (he had certainly given them rest - Josh 1.13, 15; 21.44; 22.4; 23.1).

.



Yes the Christian when he enter into Christ's rest ceases from his own works. Instead He allows Christ to perform His works through him. He is no longer slaving to observe the Law. He is walking with Christ with Christ living though him. He does the works which God has foreordained that he will do (Eph 2.10). 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God Who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure. Note Romans 4.5, 'But to him WHO DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness'. He has ceased from his works as God did from His.

Then the writer addresses the wavering Jews and says, 'Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.' They are to 'labour to enter into rest' by responding in faith, and leaving the unbelief which prevents then from entering into rest. BUT THESE WERE JEWS WHO ALREADY OBSERVED THE SABBATH. Thus the rest that they are to strive to enter into cannot be the Sabbath. The rest that he wants them to enter is the rest obtainable by coming to Jesus Christ, ceasing from their own works, and trusting in Christ and His righteousness, and then allowing Him to live His resurrection life through them.



Have you not ceased from works as commanded by God (Rom 4.5; Eph 2.9; Tit 3.5; Rom 3.28)? I am sure you have otherwise you are still lost. And if you have you have entered into rest. No more works required (they will simply be the fruit of your new experience.

How do you mean 'just a spiritual thing'? It is by the Spirit that we are saved. The flesh profits nothing.
Well formed and articulately delivered.
 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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So, anything not repeated is no longer in effect? It is not a sin?

By extension you are teaching this...

Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

is not a sin because it is not repeated in the N.T. Do you really believe what you are saying?


Thanks, john832, for taking the time to write.

You answered two posts of mine, one after the other, so you won't have missed what I wrote in the other post about the sabbath rest having been fulfilled in Jesus. But you don't take that comment into account and as a result bear false witness against me (or that's what it seems like), that I am teaching that bestiality is not a sin. I hope you're not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and do unto you as I would like you to do unto me!

When was the last time when you read Paul's comments on sexual immorality and what constitutes acceptable sexual behaviour? You seem intelligent. So why write this kind of thing? You're really not doing yourself any favours.


 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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Oh, so you think it is not repeated? Here we go again...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

And the word for rest is Sabbatismos and means keeping the Sabbath. The Diaglott makes this clear...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

Even my Oxford KJV has that in the margin as the correct translation.
John832, you're taking one verse completely out of context so as to give it the meaning you want it to have - and this text, taken out of context gives you the pretext for a proof text! But you throw what is being carefully reasoned in the passage completely out of whack in the process. It would make no sense to say in the middle of a passage in which salvation is what is pointed to, that we need to go to church on Saturday! We need to bear context in mind. The cults ignore it. You also say that the Diaglott makes it clear that sabbatismos = keeping the sabbath. The Diaglott also translates κύριος "Jehovah". Should we?

The subject of a rest for the people of God begins from Hebrew 3:7. Two "rests" are referred to, the rest in the promised land and Jesus / salvation through faith in him. The writer also refers to the sabbath day:
"For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: ‘And God rested on the seventh day from all his works'...He again fixes a certain day, ‘Today'". So the seventh day and today are two different things.

This is essentially saying that God's rest, or His ceasing from His work on the seventh day, provided the basis for the shadow of physical rest on the seventh day. That day was fixed for the children of Israel. After the cross, God again fixes a certain day — this time for the believer's rest — "today".

Note in Hebrews 4:8 that the physical Sabbath rest did not provide spiritual rest. If it had, God would not have needed to speak of another day, today. Verses 9-11 explain what this believer's rest is: "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore, let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience."

The physical Sabbath-day rest did not save and did not provide spiritual rest, but this "Sabbath-like rest" (a unique word found nowhere else in Scripture) that remains for believers is the real thing; it does provide saving spiritual rest, and we are commanded to enter it, the Sabbath rest that counts. Entering the believer's rest is how one "obeys the Gospel"— believing in Jesus and relying only on His work, thus becoming part of God's household.
 
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kohelet

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Feb 22, 2012
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The writer in Hebrews is speaking of Jews (who would already observe the Sabbath) who were on the verge of becoming Christians, and were being faced with the same challenge as Israel in the wilderness as to whether they would go forward in faith and find the rest promised by Jesus Christ (Matt 11.28-30).
Hi valiant,

I really like what you've said in your post. Isn't it extraor
dinary that people can read Hebrews and get it so wrong? Perhaps they're reading isolated verses and jumping to conclusions.

I think though, that the Hebrews are already believers. They were "holy brothers and sisters who share in the heavenly calling" and are being told to fix their thoughts on Jesus, whom they acknowledge as their apostle and high priest (opening verses of chapter 3). The writer continues, "Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." So they're Christians already and are in danger of becoming apostate.

I think that "let us labour to enter that rest" means that they should persevere and be ultimately saved. We have been saved, are being saved and will be saved. Jude was also encouraging Christians not to forsake the Lord, and writes about this ultimate being saved in verse 21 of his epistle: "Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life." The same sort of thing is happening here. They too have to labour to (ultimately) be saved.

Just to clarify: I don't believe we can lose our salvation but that we can deliberately turn our backs on God - walk away from him. This was the danger in both Hebrews and Jude.
 
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kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
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The True and the False Church

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away
disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that (for three years)

I never stopped (warning each of you night and day) (with tears) .Acts 20:30

Perhaps I could have expressed myself a little better, prove-all. Which is the true Church? I'm keen to know. The false one will be any that doesn't agree with it, I suppose.