People think you have to keep grace on a leash

[Jason0047]

Paul is speaking after his conversion, or at least as one attempting to keep the law in his own strength whether converted or not. Apart from God's grace, even as Christians, yes we are carnal and slaves to sin.

No. As I said before. You will have a contradiction between Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:2 if you believe as you do on Romans 7. Christians are not carnal and sold under sin. Christians are set free from the Law of sin and death. You can't have it both ways. It's one or the other. You are either carnal sold under sin or you are set free from sin. You can't be sold under sin and yet also set free from sin. That doesn't make any sense.

You just don't get it.

Yes, I will never understand the OSAS belief and their justification in a sin and still be saved type doctrine. To me it is pure evil. I mean, even as a kid reading comic books growing up, I knew who the bad guys were and who the good guys were. It was pretty simple to figure out. Good guys did good; And bad guys do evil.

Your best work is still tainted by the flesh and self and would never stand the test of 100% purity.

No. The true born again believer lets Christ do the good work within them. So no.

 

[Jason0047]

Again, I do not blame you for not understanding the core of the new covenant. The most tragic thing in Christendom is most ministers DO NOT preach from the pulpit of the two core foundational principals on which the new covenant stands, more a diluted message gets preached. A diluted message brings diluted results

While we are not justified by keeping Commandments in and of themselves to be saved, a true salvation will always result in one obeying the Lord according to the New Testament. I say this because much of the New Testament is Command oriented. In fact, there are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html

 

[vic1980]

Paul is speaking after his conversion, or at least as one attempting to keep the law in his own strength whether converted or not. Apart from God's grace, even as Christians, yes we are carnal and slaves to sin.

You just don't get it. Your best work is still tainted by the flesh and self and would never stand the test of 100% purity.

How can a christian be apart from God grace ? Scripture clearly teaches we are no longer slaves to sin anymore.

 

[Jason0047]

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom 6:14

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death Rom 7:4&5

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law Rom 3:31

I used to believe just as you do now Jason. But you believe in a contradiction in truth. ''We are not under the law as long as we obey the law.''
The only way you can love God as God wants you to love Him is if you know the penalty of sin has been removed from your life, if you do not believe that you cannot. In that knowledge is victory over sin

Actually the verses you quote works against OSAS and is not in support of it. We establish the Law. How does that support a sin and still be saved doctrine that squirms at the obedience of God's Laws within the New Testament?

As for your cutting and splicing Romans 6 and Romans 7 to back up OSAS: Not going to work. In Romans 6, Paul says we cannot continue in sin. He says God forbid in regards to continuing in sin. Meaning we cannot continue in sin. He says ye yield yourselves to what servant in whom you obey. Whether obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death. In Romans 7, Paul is speaking from his perspective as a Jew who was trying to be justified wrongfully by the Law before he became a Christian.

 

[michael56]

Actually the verses you quote works against OSAS and is not in support of it. We establish the Law. How does that support a sin and still be saved doctrine that squirms at the obedience of God's Laws within the New Testament?

As for your cutting and splicing Romans 6 and Romans 7 to back up OSAS: Not going to work. In Romans 6, Paul says we cannot continue in sin. He says God forbid in regards to continuing in sin. Meaning we cannot continue in sin. He says ye yield yourselves to what servant in whom you obey. Whether obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death. In Romans 7, Paul is speaking from his perspective as a Jew who was trying to be justified wrongfully by the Law before he became a Christian.

Well firstly I have never mentioned OSAS.
Secondly, I know Paul is speaking as a Pharisee pre conversion to Christianity in Rom ch 7
Thirdly, you do believe saved by grace kept by works of the law. If you properly understood Rom 7 you would not take such a view, at best it is a weak and diluted message, and one that leaves many churches half empty, and others filled mainly with a certain section of society

 

[michael56]

While we are not justified by keeping Commandments in and of themselves to be saved, a true salvation will always result in one obeying the Lord according to the New Testament. I say this because much of the New Testament is Command oriented. In fact, there are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99639-new-testament-commands.html

Do you obey 1,050 commands in the new testament? Or are you selective? Do you justify your Christianity by believing you obey the important ones so God will accept the ones you do not obey?

 

[BradC]

Not true. Just look at any real world example where you take away the consequences of something and look at how people will react. In other words, if there was no consequences anymore to people speeding on the highway, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to speed on the highway. If man found a cure to weight loss, what is going to happen? More people are going to eat what used to be considered weight gaining foods.

Anyways, we know that Antinomianism (OSAS) in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Antinomianism Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & Antinomianism:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on Antinomianism:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & Antinomianism:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

In fact, Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. George Sodini used to be the Poster Child for Eternal Security or OSAS. Yet, instead, he turned out to be a mass murderer in the end, though.

George Sodini - OSAS Proponent Health Club Mass Murderer.

There are things in the flesh that believers must overcome in their life and the only way they can is through grace. The only way a person can not go back to sin is through grace. The only way we can recover from sin is through that same grace. In (Rom 5:2) we stand in grace and if we fall, we fall in the grace of God because sin never changes that position that we stand in and we instantly have access to that grace by faith according to God's promise.

Rom 14:4 says this...4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

This is a promise of God and it comes by grace and mercy. The promise does not condone sin nor is it antinomian in nature, not even for the servant. The promise reveals the nature and character of the one who made the promise. Can any man uphold himself when he has fallen... absolutely not. Can our behavior, despite the depths of our human depravity, ever exhaust the grace of God... absolutely not. When sin abounds or if we sin (God forbid) does not the grace of God abound MUCH MORE (Rom 5:20)? When the law entered for the purpose of making sin abound, where sin abounded according to the law, grace did much more abound.

That is the truth about the grace we have from God. It does not judge us but abounds toward us when we fail and fall short every single time. Grace is not a respecter of my sin or your sin. It is not for some who sin but for all who sin. If I fall in sin today at any level, God will make grace abound (much more) toward me, way beyond the level of my sin. God's purpose is to overwhelm the sinner with grace so that the sinner will apprehend grace instead of his sin. Oh how unsearchable are his riches (of grace) and his ways past finding out, just as his love goes beyond knowledge (Rom 11:33, Eph 3:8, 19). Wisdom is the application of grace and we all need to have that understanding and be enabled to practice it toward ourselves and others.

We can be sure that if we continue in sin for a season that our sin will find us out (Num 32:23) and when it does, God will be right there waiting to be gracious (Psalm 77:9, 86:15, Is 30:18, 1 Pt 2:1,2).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, just look at the heroes of faith in the Bible and they did not live unrighteous lives as a way of life. Yes, they were not perfect and they messed up at times. But they did not stay down within the mud of their sin; Nor were they characterized by living unrighteously or evil, either.

Oh you mean like ALL of Gods children will? Were they perfect? (abraham commited adultry many times over, He lied to a king and almost got his wife taken away, David commited murder and adultry, one major affairs, and many wives) Noah did some prety bad stuff after the flood. These were not perfect men, they were men saved by the grace of God. and forgiven, because they had FAITH in God.

Goodness according to some law does not prove you have faith. The pharisees proved this.

Yes, we are not under the Law of Moses anymore, but certain moral laws from the Old Covenant have carried over into the New Covenant.

No, this is not rue. We are under the law or under grace. You can not have it both ways. All Christ did was take the penalty of the law away, He did not change laws and say do this instead.

Your watering Down Gods law to make you feel good about yourself. when paul made it clear. apart from grace, that law still condemns you.

Granted, we are not saved by a set of rules alone in and of themselves. For if I do wrong, I do not go out and do more good works to offset a sin so as to be saved. We are saved by what Jesus did on the cross. So I confess to Him, if I do sin (Which is a Biblical practice --- 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For He is our Heavenly High Priest and or Advocate between God the Father. For the Scriptures say that He is forever alive to make intercession for us. Jesus is my priest. He is the One I go to if things are not right. I do not act like He is not there and think He is got my back any time I might potentially sin or fall. No, no. That would be trying to cover and hide sin within my life and it would be making an excuse for sin.

See, Here is your problem, In excusing your sin by saying you are afraid to make easy grace a reality, You in turn excuse your sin. You claim the same law that would condemn an OT believer does not condemn you, well your wrong, They were not saved by the law either, they were saved by Grace, They did not become perfect people. they became lovers of God.

Your teaching law. and excusing your sin. By making up your own rules.

Shame Shame

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God is against sin (or the transgression of the Law). For sin is what put Jesus Christ on the cross. God is not going to allow a person to get away with unrepentant sin because they have a belief on Him. Believers do not make excuses for sin. They are sorrowful over sin and strive to forsake sin with God's help striving to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Does this mean that some believers will not struggle with sin? No. But does this mean there are no believers who have not crucified the affections and lusts? Again, no (See Galatians 5:24).

Also, Paul says he establishes the Law. Not the Law of Moses but the Law of Christ. The law of love (Which comes from God because God is love). For Paul says if we love our neighbor we will not covet, steal, murder, etc. (See Romans 13). So no, the fact that I am in support of God's commands under the New Testament does not make me a Legalist. For how can God be against what He has established? Anyways, a Legalist is someone who looks to the Law alone and leaves God out of the program of salvation (When in reality it is God who does all the saving in Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification if we simply yield to Him). We cannot be anarchists or even partial anarchists against God. For we know that anyone who has rebelled or sinned against God and continues to do so was not blessed but cursed. In fact, the Scriptures say Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would include sin in a person's life.

The law is Gods requirement, if you fall short of this, your doomed. No turning back.

SInce we have ALL fallen short, and keep falling short. we have no hope apart from Christ.

Stop excusing your sin, and start trusting in the saving grace of Christ, You will become more of a righteous person that you ever though possible. And less of a prideful, self centered person you are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Too many people use grace to condone their sin. Grace is not a licensee to sin. Yeah I know while your doing your friends wife you say I'm under grace. The devil is liar.

Too many people use legalism to condone sin.

Your no more a righteous person when you are doing for yourself that the one who is doing his wife freind, the law condemns you both.

Once you realise, you will find true grace, and have no desire to do either. until then you will continue to live in sin, and never find the true love of God

 

[Jason0047]

Here is a point many miss about LOVE including yourself.

LOVE cannot be turned into a law...(Aww, do I have to love that jerk?) Love is a gift included and is part of our new nature which we exercise as we grasp by faith the great love by which God loved us.

That's really good. That's a great point!

No, it is not a great point. Actually it doesn't make any sense. In other words, you are trying to tell me that God gave us His laws as a way of not loving us? Since when does God do anything that is not ultimately loving? Even God's Judgments are loving because it is putting an end to evil and giving that which is good victory so as to glorify that which is good (Which is the righteousness of God and or His working that is done thru His people).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I already thought this before you said it. However, if we truly have Christ living within us, then the works of Christ will be evident within our lives. We would hate evil and love that which is good and never make an excuse for sin (Just like Jesus).

Oh so Jesus made an excuse for sin? When?

Jesus did not do anything but live a life 100 % thinking about others, and not self. Which is what made him perfect under the law.

We can not do this. WHich is why the law still condemns you and why you still have to be saved.

yes, the works of christ will be evident within us, That has NEVER been the question, the question is Is CHrist actually in us, are are we look a likes, with no power.

Anyone can act like a christian talk like a christian and walk like one That will never make one an actual Christian though. We must be adopted by God for this to happen. And he said he will not do this till we completely humble ourselves and admit he is our only way.

So when are you going to do this? You still think your worthy, just because you excuse your sin by saying your sorry. That wont cut it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus said he came as a physician as to the reason why he was around sinners. Meaning, he was not hanging around them as a means of condoning their sinful lifestyle, but He was among them to heal them of the sickness of their sins (That has gripped their lives).

Yep, He ate with the, drank with them, and did not judge them, His LOVE changed their lives. Not his legalism, and pride He left that to the pharisees.

Uh, and no. I would not condemn Jesus if He was here physically amongst us today. How can I be against anyone who does that which is good and right by the Scriptures? For Jesus was in perfect obedience to Scripture all the time. Actually, it is the OSAS proponent today who would be against Jesus because they think they can get away with sin with the thinking they are saved. Yet, Jesus never condoned anyone to sin. As a matter of fact, the OSAS proponent today is a perfect description of the Pharisees. They obeyed certain laws to look good in front of others, but they ignored weightier matters of the law like Justice, Love, and Mercy. They thought they were saved just because they were God's children (i.e. the Jews).

Yes you would.

Because jesus loved david and saved him and called him a man after his own heart, BEFORE david saw bathseba, lusted her, Raped her, and killed her husband. And even long before he slew Goliath. and did one work of righteousness.

He loved abraham and declared him saved also before he commited adultry with his maid, and married multiple women in adulterous affairs. and all his other sins. And even before he did ONE work of righteousness.

Thats what grace does, it empowers s to do great wonders for God. because we KNOW God loves us in spite of our failings.

You claim that can not be. Thus you would reject CHrist and his forgiving of other sinners just like him, and he rejects your self righteousness, as he did the pharisees.

 

[Jason0047]

Do you obey 1,050 commands in the new testament? Or are you selective? Do you justify your Christianity by believing you obey the important ones so God will accept the ones you do not obey?

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Not all the Commands listed are sins that lead unto death (i.e. the Second Death or spiritual death). I do not abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death. However, what you are proposing is madness. You are saying that God put His Commands within His Word so that we don't actually have to do them all. Why on Earth would He have Commands written down if we could not keep them? Is He taunting us? No. God gives us Commands within His Word so as to obey them and He knows we can obey them because it is God (Not ourselves) working within us to help us to obey what is written within His Word. Paul said that what he had written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments. Do you believe Paul?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because we mess up sometimes. But there's a difference between messing up sometimes and repenting for it, and practicing unrepentant sin. I think that's what Jason0047 was getting at.

1. We do not mess up sometimes, THAT is excusing sin
2. One who has truly trusted God has already REPENTED of ALL SIN. Past present and future
3. One who is born of God also does not practice sin (as john said in his epistles. One who practices sin has never known God not seen him, One who is born of God can not practice sin, because he has been born of God and God is in him.

Jason is excusing his sin, while condemning others and excusing theres. You will never hear us excuse sin, EVER! We will ALWAYS admit our sin is OUR problem and take it to God with no excuses, No I am sorry I did not mean it. We would never mock the omniscience of God that way.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Paul is speaking after his conversion, or at least as one attempting to keep the law in his own strength whether converted or not. Apart from God's grace, even as Christians, yes we are carnal and slaves to sin.

You just don't get it. Your best work is still tainted by the flesh and self and would never stand the test of 100% purity.

Correct . . . we are still carnal because we are still in the flesh. We are still clothed in our "earthly house" - We groan earnestly desiring to be clothed with our house which is from heaven. So being in the flesh, i.e. carnal - we still have this human nature, this old man, hanging around our necks. Just because we are born again and are now partakers of the divine nature doesn't make us perfect - we still have the old man nature and will have until either Jesus comes back or we die and are buried in corruption, raised in incorruption - sown in dishonor, raised in honor - sown in weakness, raised in power - sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body.

 

[Jason0047]

1. We do not mess up sometimes, THAT is excusing sin
2. One who has truly trusted God has already REPENTED of ALL SIN. Past present and future
3. One who is born of God also does not practice sin (as john said in his epistles. One who practices sin has never known God not seen him, One who is born of God can not practice sin, because he has been born of God and God is in him.

Jason is excusing his sin, while condemning others and excusing theres. You will never hear us excuse sin, EVER! We will ALWAYS admit our sin is OUR problem and take it to God with no excuses, No I am sorry I did not mean it. We would never mock the omniscience of God that way.

1. You should be ashamed of yourself. May the Lord temporarily stop your pushing of such evil here to show you otherwise. A believer striving to do what is right always and stumbling on occasion (Not intending or wanting to sin) is not an excuse for sin. Does the drunk who stumbles on his road to recovery in the wrong? Is the person who stumbles on their road to losing a bunch of weight in the wrong? I say thee nay. A person who is striving to do what is right is not in the wrong.

OSAS is the evil teaching that gives a person an excuse to sin because you don't ever have to worry about sin. For in OSAS: You can sin and still be saved. No sin can truly separate you from God and His salvation. In other words, it's like telling a child that they shouldn't eat candy but if they do, there is no actual consequences (That will truly matter) in doing so.

2. You can't repent of future sin. That doesn't make any sense. You can only confess of past sins. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are forgiven of future sin. Nowhere did the apostles teach such a thing. One has to take the word "all" and make it say that. No verse specifically says future sin is forgiven.

3. I actually do not believe you when you say that one who practices sin does not know God. You believe a person can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Which is basically saying they can sin and still be saved. You also don't believe any sin can separate a person from the love of God. You believe physical death is the result for sin and not spiritual death for the believer. Yet it is different somehow for the unbeliever. As if God is a respecter of persons.

 

[BradC]

All sin is contrary to God and is condemned, but that is why Christ came, to be judged for sin and as sin, condemning sin in his own flesh. If we stop right there, (pause) we can see the glory of God in the cross. God was in Christ, on the cross, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Cor 5:18-20). In other words God used his only begotten Son to make a way for sinful man to be reconciled and it would be done by not imputing any sin or trespass unto them.

It may be hard for some to understand and comprehend but all sin and every trespass has been imputed to the body of Christ on the cross and has been crucified, even the child molester's, as wicked as that is. He can be reconciled by faith to God through His Son because all his sin has already been judged and condemned in the flesh of Jesus Christ. He can be free and completely justified by grace through trusting in the cross of Christ. God will deal with his sin issue of the flesh and it will take plenty of mercy and grace to do it. God is faithful and will not forsake any who have trusted in His Son for the forgiveness and remission of all sin.

 

[crossnote]

No. As I said before. You will have a contradiction between Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:2 if you believe as you do on Romans 7. Christians are not carnal and sold under sin. Christians are set free from the Law of sin and death. You can't have it both ways. It's one or the other. You are either carnal sold under sin or you are set free from sin. You can't be sold under sin and yet also set free from sin. That doesn't make any sense.



Yes, I will never understand the OSAS belief and their justification in a sin and still be saved type doctrine. To me it is pure evil. I mean, even as a kid reading comic books growing up, I knew who the bad guys were and who the good guys were. It was pretty simple to figure out. Good guys did good; And bad guys do evil.



No. The true born again believer lets Christ do the good work within them. So no.

so in other words you hold that perfection is possible while we are in these fallen bodies. Can you point to any examples of a perfect person today?

 

[crossnote]

How can a christian be apart from God grace ? Scripture clearly teaches we are no longer slaves to sin anymore.

Awkward English, let me attempt to rephrase...
If it wasn't for the grace of God, us Christians would be carnal and a slave to sin.
Thx for the clarification.