Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

[john832]

The majority of the remaining laws given to Moses, besides food and sabbath laws were things like:

• Giving your children to be sacrificed to Molek (18:21)
• Making idols or metal gods (19:4)
• Reaping to the very edges of a field (leave some for the poor) (19:9)
• Picking up grapes that have fallen in your vineyard (19:10

• Holding back the wages of an employee (19:13)
• Cursing the deaf or abusing the blind (19:14)
• Perverting justice, showing partiality to either the poor or the rich (19:15)
• Doing anything to endanger a neighbours life (19:16)
• Blasphemy
• Carelessly making an oath
• Mixing linen and wool in a garment
• Cross breeding animals
• Mixing seed in a field
• Sexual Immorality
• Do not Steal
• Do not Lie
• Do not Murder
• Standing when an elder enters your presence

They have to do with loving God and loving people. Some of them, like mixing seed, cross breeding and mixing linen and wool in a garment I think have spiritual symbolism for us such as keeping oneself pure but also, God said not to so we shouldn't do it.
I do not think our focus should be on keeping the law, certainly never think that we can earn our salvation by attempting to obey God, but our focus should be on loving God with all our heart, mind and body and loving our neighbor as our self. The problem is, without the law, we do not know the definition of sin and therefor do not fully know God's definition of love. Sin is breaking the laws of God whether physically or spiritually.

Most of the law should be kept naturally by those walking by the spirit and being conformed to Christ. Things like what God created to be consumed by us, we have to read the Word of God for ourselves (we have to be careful to follow what God said, not the traditions of modern day jews, rabbis, pharisees etc). During the time of the apostles, early Christians would go to the synagogues to hear the laws of Moses taught. God doesn't expect us to be perfect or to know everything from the moment we turn to Him but we should atleast start by avoiding things sacrificed to idols, sexual immorality, animals which have been strangled and consuming blood.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to WheresEnoch again.

 

[Dan_473]

Well the instructions on following Torah are the same, but my personal opinion on what they were teaching was not to just jump and splash into Torah. My belief on it is they were teaching

First and foremost, come to salvation through Yeshua. Because you cannot follow Torah without Yeshua in it.
Second go to synagogue (church, however you want to put it) on sabbath (the 7th day sabbath), and they taught Torah their.
Third part 1 (for gentiles coming to salvation) not to just jump into Torah observance or opposite (don't be scared of it), take baby steps. For example start with just sabbath observance, and then when you're comfortable take another step.
Third part 2 (for Jews coming to salvation) Not to judge the gentiles coming into salvation, do not ridicule them, or chastise them for not immediately picking up Torah. Also not to use Torah as a means of salvation. Which I do believe that may have been happenning at the time, because there was some confusion on how to do this walk from both Jewish and Gentile perspective.

There are people who may agree with this theology, there are people who disagree. I honestly believe everyone who comes to Christ should be walking in Torah, and that just because of the basics, that Torah is holy, and we are called to be holy, also again it's what was being taught in the in the synagogues at that time, they were teaching Moses and the prophets.

Now I do also believe some of the leaders were corrected by Paul becuase some of the leaders were teaching salvation is in the Torah, and Paul basically slapping his head at that (which I would too if I heard someone preach that salvation is in Torah). I also believe some of the leaders were pressing really hard on the gentiles to basically get everything together on Torah observance, and were trying to give too much information at once. So I believe Paul was teach alot against this, because the way it was being taught can be lead to confusion and could be misleading.

That's also why there is a lot of confusion when reading Paul, when you see stuff for example it looks like he's against the Torah and then turns around and is for it. If taught improperly the Torah can be legalistic, if taught right it's not legalistic. If it's taught with the knowing that it's a life style of holiness and being obedient to God, it's not legalistic. And I apologize for the redundency, but again if Torah is taught as a means for salvation, that is what legalism is.

I'm not sure if that explains it or not. Again this is my view on it, and I want to be sure and clear that you know I'm not pushing you or anyone else on it.

well, about church and synagogue... the nt uses both words, but for very different things, imo...

let's take a look at acts 15...
some pharisees say to tell the gentiles to keep the law of moses.
Peter advises not placing a yoke on the necks of the gentiles which neither he nor the Jewish ancestors could handle.
James advises not troubling the gentiles... odd words if keeping Torah was bringing peace to them...
the apostles say they won't lay a burden on them, other than four rules, which imo, have to do with idol worship...
they end the letter saying if the gentiles will live by staying away from those four things, they will do well... not just as a start, but as a continuing lifestyle... imo...

 

[john832]

well, about church and synagogue... the nt uses both words, but for very different things, imo...

let's take a look at acts 15...
some pharisees say to tell the gentiles to keep the law of moses.
Peter advises not placing a yoke on the necks of the gentiles which neither he nor the Jewish ancestors could handle.
James advises not troubling the gentiles... odd words if keeping Torah was bringing peace to them...
the apostles say they won't lay a burden on them, other than four rules, which imo, have to do with idol worship...
they end the letter saying if the gentiles will live by staying away from those four things, they will do well... not just as a start, but as a continuing lifestyle... imo...

Sounds great. Please explain where murder, adultery and lying fit in here?

 

[prove-all]

Ya things like that just seem to pop into our heads from time to time. It's cool lol. I wouldn't consider myself an expert on these matters by any means, I'm just learning as I grow, if anyone has insight to share with me that would be greatly appreciated

Major misconception

something recent I wondered about.

T.G.I.F.
Thank God it's friday

Most everyone has heard of this, after a long week of work it's party time.

People all over the world go out drinking and dancing or what not,
the lust of the eyes, drunkenness and only God knows what else goes on.

Then maybe they will rest or go to church on sunday, or maybe just watch a sports game.

The world is pressing to make a day of rest for all, christines or non christen alike,
on sunday,a law even now, but rome is making it a quiet day, no noise even allowed at home.

but just as the sabbath holy time starts, His time,
the world does the very opposite, and unholy things is done.

I myself now believe tgif was made by the devils influence and not for God,
just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

 

[john832]

Major misconception

something recent I wondered about.

T.G.I.F.
Thank God it's friday

Most everyone has heard of this, after a long week of work it's party time.

People all over the world go out drinking and dancing or what not,
the lust of the eyes, drunkenness and only God knows what else goes on.

Then maybe they will rest or go to church on sunday, or maybe just watch a sports game.

The world is pressing to make a day of rest for all, christines or non christen alike,
on sunday,a law even now, but rome is making it a quiet day, no noise even allowed at home.

but just as the sabbath holy time starts, His time,
the world does the very opposite, and unholy things is done.

I myself now believe tgif was made by the devils influence and not for God,
just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to prove-all again.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Ok, and I'm not saying you do this, but when someone brings up following Torah in a lot of discussions almost every time immediately the Torah follower is accused of being legalistic. That's more of the reason behind my post.

Doesn't this mean that a person is being obedient because they want something and not being obedient because they want to please GOD?

 

[Dan_473]

not forgetting that yahshua said and taught the apostles and his followers /disciples that a Jew is not one who is a Jew outwardly but inwardly,

there is still overwhelming genealogical records / ((proof?)) hahahahaha more than enough//
for many JEWS TODAY.....

YHWH knows us(not many online; few anywhere) ; we JEWS know who we are. we EKKLESIA know who we are(and we know who is not of HIM). we follow the SHEPHERD, we know HIS VOICE. we guard HIS WORD in our HEARTS, as HE GUARDS US IN HIMSELF/ as HIS FLOCK.

spiritually speaking, yes, a Jew is an inward state...

still, I think today that most people who are commonly called 'Jews', and call themselves that, are decended physically from Judah...

 

[Dan_473]

Thanks for your well written posts. There is a huge consensus out there that says our Creator's instructions are hard. I think many are parroting what they've heard, have been brainwashed into assuming that. ..at least that was the case for me until I studied them for myself. Just as Messiah said..Matthew 11:29(KJV)

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I'm thinking then that Jesus' yoke is different from what Peter was talking about... a yoke on the neck which neither our fathers nor we (the apostles) were able to bear...

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I'm thinking then that Jesus' yoke is different from what Peter was talking about... a yoke on the neck which neither our fathers nor we (the apostles) were able to bear...

No friend, it is the same yoke. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No friend, it is the same yoke. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow

ok I just looked. It is not the same yoke. the yoke of jesus we can handle. the yoke of the law (which Peter spoke of) is a yoke no man can handle.

 

[Dan_473]

Sounds great. Please explain where murder, adultery and lying fit in here?

cetainly! the apostles are meeting together to decide what role the law of Moses should play in the gentile believer's life... not how a believer should live... believers are counseled other places to walk by the spirit...

now, I think what James counsels is a way of helping Jews and gentiles be together in the same church... at that time, the church had a lot of people in it who were raised Jewish... today, hardly any... I think Paul later says that eating food sacrificed to idols is no big deal, unless you think there's something behind the statue...



so, if the part in the law of Moses doesn't have to be followed by gentile believers, what about, say, murder?

a christian attempts to walk by the spirit... every thought and attitude can be evaluated, does it help grow the fruit of the spirit, or lead to the works of the flesh... so then, let us walk by the spirit.

 

[Dan_473]

No friend, it is the same yoke. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow

I agree that Jesus is the same... but Peter describes a yoke that he can't bear... so, Jesus' yoke must be different than the yoke of the law of Moses...

 

[sparty-g]

I agree that Jesus is the same... but Peter describes a yoke that he can't bear... so, Jesus' yoke must be different than the yoke of the law of Moses...

It may help to qualify what you mean when you say the yoke that Peter is describing is the law of Moses. In what sense, exactly? Let's examine the claims against which they describe this yoke:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” -- Acts 15:1 (NIV)

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” -- Acts 15:6 (NIV)

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” -- Acts 15:10-11 (NIV)

How do you interpret the yoke being presented here?

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sparty-g's view on these things:

I see a few issues being discussed: ritual conversion by circumcision (Gentiles becoming proselyte Jews), keeping the Torah-Law of Moses, and salvation.

Requiring ritual conversion by circumcision in order to be saved would mean that Gentiles (in their uncircumcised state) cannot be saved; instead, it would mean that one must enter the kingdom through this gate of becoming Jewish. But the disciples knew this wasn't the case since Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in their uncircumcised state. I believe this to be part of the unbearable yoke (especially if you consider that most of these would have been adults being circumcised, which in 1st c. AD doesn't seem like it would be easy to bear; whereas natural born Jews are circumcised as a baby on the eighth day).

Next, keeping the Torah-Law of Moses in order to be saved would certainly be an unbearable yoke. As Peter says, their ancestors were not able to bear it, which is true because they were never required to bear such a burden of keeping the Torah-Law of Moses for salvation. Salvation was always by the grace of God and not the end result of some manner of Torah-Law keeping. Abraham was called out, set apart, and declared righteous by faith. The exodus story shows the same principle: the Israelites were brought out of Egypt first as their status as a holy people was being restored and they became a set-apart nation, and the Torah-Law came after; this was not the end result of keeping any manner of the Torah-Law first in Egypt before God rescued them.

So, I see Peter's yoke as requiring ritual conversion and Torah-Law keeping before salvation by the grace of God is given. I do not believe this was required before the Messiah's time and is not required after the Messiah's time, so there was no reason to put this unfair burden on Gentiles if it never even applied to Israelites and is contrary to the way God handles salvation. Likewise, the yoke of which the Messiah speaks is easy; not the burdensome result of man's work, and it is especially light compared to the ministry of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, who had taken the Torah-Law of Moses and transformed it into a heavy burden with their additional man-made regulations.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” -- Matt. 11:28-30

 

[Willie-T]

It may help to qualify what you mean when you say the yoke that Peter is describing is the law of Moses. In what sense, exactly? Let's examine the claims against which they describe this yoke:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” -- Acts 15:1 (NIV)

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” -- Acts 15:6 (NIV)

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” -- Acts 15:10-11 (NIV)

How do you interpret the yoke being presented here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sparty-g's view on these things:

I see a few issues being discussed: ritual conversion by circumcision (Gentiles becoming proselyte Jews), keeping the Torah-Law of Moses, and salvation.

Requiring ritual conversion by circumcision in order to be saved would mean that Gentiles (in their uncircumcised state) cannot be saved; instead, it would mean that one must enter the kingdom through this gate of becoming Jewish. But the disciples knew this wasn't the case since Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in their uncircumcised state. I believe this to be part of the unbearable yoke (especially if you consider that most of these would have been adults being circumcised, which in 1st c. AD doesn't seem like it would be easy to bear; whereas natural born Jews are circumcised as a baby on the eighth day).

Next, keeping the Torah-Law of Moses in order to be saved would certainly be an unbearable yoke. As Peter says, their ancestors were not able to bear it, which is true because they were never required to bear such a burden of keeping the Torah-Law of Moses for salvation. Salvation was always by the grace of God and not the end result of some manner of Torah-Law keeping. Abraham was called out, set apart, and declared righteous by faith. The exodus story shows the same principle: the Israelites were brought out of Egypt first as their status as a holy people was being restored and they became a set-apart nation, and the Torah-Law came after; this was not the end result of keeping any manner of the Torah-Law first in Egypt before God rescued them.

So, I see Peter's yoke as requiring ritual conversion and Torah-Law keeping before salvation by the grace of God is given. I do not believe this was required before the Messiah's time and is not required after the Messiah's time, so there was no reason to put this unfair burden on Gentiles if it never even applied to Israelites and is contrary to the way God handles salvation. Likewise, the yoke of which the Messiah speaks is easy; not the burdensome result of man's work, and it is especially light compared to the ministry of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, who had taken the Torah-Law of Moses and transformed it into a heavy burden with their additional man-made regulations.“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” -- Matt. 11:28-30

Good to read. so many of us Christians labor under the misconception that keeping Torah had something to do with Salvation. All Jews already felt they were "saved" simply because they were born into Judaism. Keeping Torah was merely Hebrew Community Maintenance.

 

[Elin]

JGIG

You posted something on a link for testimonies, assuming it's about messianics and saved Jews turning away from the Torah. Well take time and read this testimony.

I got "saved" when I was 7. That is when I accepted Christ, it was at a Christian church too. So few years later I'm in middle school, I was very anti following the OT to the point of anti-Semitism. In 7th grade I told a Jew he was going to hell, I was at that level of anti-Semitism. I followed the whole grace only show, and that following the OT was just for Jews. So now we get to high school, at this point in my life I was semi rebellious to my parents (mainly because they fought a lot, to the point where divorce could be in the picture, they weren't a happy couple). Now again my family is a big church going family, my mom was a children's ministry director. So anyway getting into my junior going into senior year the youth group minister is forced to step down and leave for not observing Christmas and Easter. This confused me, because I was always big on studying mythology (that was in middle and high school) so me knowing mythology and history this made sense to because neither Christmas nor Easter were technically mentioned in the bible. I had always heard of Passover as the last supper, I never realized it was actually mentioned in the bible outside of that. So I start doing bible studies with the former youth group minister. I started learning about Torah, I was mainly about the feasts at this point because that's what sparked my interest. Now at this time I'm just studying it, not observing. Between junior and my senior year I got my first job, it lasted 2 months. Well about a month after that I decided to start just observing 7th day Sabbath (friday sundown to saturday sundown) along with the commanded fests. Within a couple of months terms of employment for my sky rocketted. Now as far as my family I do remember my dad and I got in several arguments about Torah observance, and I found out his background was actually Jewish (he had been hiding it from me and my brothers because he was afraid of the judgement Jews get). So as a saved Jew he kept on going to the teachings of Paul (just like numerous folks on here do), long story short he gets to a point where he couldn't look at me sometimes. Now my mom, who was raised Baptists (key thing there, my mom was raised on the NT her whole life, her dad was a military pastor) she actually listened to me on what I was learning and going through, so she decided to start with the Sabbath and feast observance just as I did. Now every time I talked to my parents about this I always reassured them that Yeshua is my Lord and Savior, and salvation is through him. Anyway my mom at this time was diabetic, so a few months later we decided to follow dietary laws, within 2 months she is no longer diabetic (coincidence? I think not). This goes on for about a year and my dad starts to just observe 7th day Sabbath and the feast, to just check it out because he's never done it with a perspective of Yeshua in it. This continues on and a year or so later, my parents are no longer fighting and they're happy in their marriage again (and since then it has just gone uphill for them), now for me on the other hand I decided to walk away from the Torah walk and do my own thing. Within a month I lose my job and could not keep a job at all. Now my reason for the change I don't exactly know, my heart started not to be in the right place. I decided to turn away, but I did go start going to Christian church again because I felt that it was "easier" (I hate putting it that way because it makes Torah observance seem hard, and it's not). I started down a path that basically lead to a choice of jail time or the military. I obviously chose the military. So I slightly start getting in to teaching the word during basic training, I even lead a few people to Christ. Now I wasn't teaching Torah to them, I stayed away from the subject. Now after the military, I realized how well my parents relationship had gotten. I decided to slowly get back into a walk in Torah and so far I feel my life has been blessed immensely, and I thank God for it every single day. My parents walk and my walk with the Lord are stronger than ever.

So now based off of that testimony, if all those positive things came out of just simply following Torah, and doing so with Yeshua in it. How is that wrong out evil or against God? I don't see it at all.

Do you think doing so is necessary for favor with God?

 

[Elin]

Just to sum that up, life has been a lot easier and less stressful when being Torah observant.

Others find it easier and less stressful when not being Christian observant.

 

[Elin]

Again, I hear what you're saying, but please understand that what I believe is not replacement theology - at all. No one replaces anyone - God creates in Christ one NEW man.

Number 3 above says, "in those promises and that chosenness we are united with but have not replaced Israel"

No, we are not united with Israel, but with those who have put their faith in Christ, whether Israel or Gentiles - the Body of Christ. What you're saying is that Israel doesn't have to believe on their Messiah. After the Cross, all mankind becomes partakers in the promise ONLY through faith in Christ and His Work.

The writer to the Hebrews calls it the 'new and living way'. And even Israel is subject to it.

-JGIG

All God's people are on the same footing this side of the cross.

 

[Elin]

no proof, just a matter of what's most likely... Jews, except for converts, need at least one Jewish parent, usually they have two... those parents also had Jewish parents... seems reasonable... and so on back to when the records still existed...

Actually, they need a particular Jewish parent.

 

[Elin]

so I'm thinking about this... if you're of Jewish heritage, then that might be different from gentile christians keeping Torah...

in the days of the apostles, there were areas with lots of Jewish people who believed that Jesus was the Christ... James tells Paul about this when Paul comes to Jerusalem... James doesn't seem interested in trying to get these Jewish believers to stop keeping Torah, rather he gives Paul advice on how to 'fit in'...

James did not give Paul advice on how to "fit in" when Paul went to Jerusalem.

And Paul, with no advice from James, had Timothy circumcised in order to be more effective in his work among the unconverted Jews.

Nor did the regulations Paul took to Antioch include prohibition of unclean foods according to the Mosaic law.

 

[Elin]

Well the instructions on following Torah are the same, but my personal opinion on what they were teaching was not to just jump and splash into Torah. My belief on it is they were teaching

First and foremost, come to salvation through Yeshua. Because you cannot follow Torah without Yeshua in it.
Second go to synagogue (church, however you want to put it) on sabbath (the 7th day sabbath), and they taught Torah their.
Third part 1 (for gentiles coming to salvation) not to just jump into Torah observance or opposite (don't be scared of it), take baby steps. For example start with just sabbath observance, and then when you're comfortable take another step.

We do not find Paul telling Gentiles to follow the Mosaic law anywhere in the NT.