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E
Better yet, how can we obtain salvation when we can not live up to Gods standard (the law). I am glad you think you are above the law, and have fulfilled it in yourself.
Those of us who have been saved, do obey gods commands. Because we have been shown Gods love to learn how to love him and others.
Maybe one day you will find this love, but as long as your to proud to repent, I doubt that will ever happen.
Dude it's not in your authority to proclaim things like "Maybe one day you will find this love, but as long as your too proud to repent, I doubt that will ever happen." Who are you to say that to him?
You KNOW he's not saved? How do you know that? These kind of comments are way arrogant brother and I see you making them WAY too often. What authority did God give to you that we don't have. YOU don't get to proclaim others salvation or lack thereof. You are pointing out others arrogance all the time, yet are blind to your own. You should really try to keep that in check man, it is NOT Christ like in any way. Also I think you just like arguing with him out of pride, not in love or in a helpful way, but the same venom over and over. I think you both should have dusted off your shoes a long time ago. Not a great way to represent Christ brother.
You KNOW he's not saved? How do you know that? These kind of comments are way arrogant brother and I see you making them WAY too often. What authority did God give to you that we don't have. YOU don't get to proclaim others salvation or lack thereof. You are pointing out others arrogance all the time, yet are blind to your own. You should really try to keep that in check man, it is NOT Christ like in any way. Also I think you just like arguing with him out of pride, not in love or in a helpful way, but the same venom over and over. I think you both should have dusted off your shoes a long time ago. Not a great way to represent Christ brother.
E
forgive me if I would rather be like christ and the apostles and expose a false teacher so no one else falls for his false teaching.
how do I know he is not saved? by the gospel he preaches.
so lets be hypocrites is that what your saying? it is ok for them to say we excuse our sin and are not saved, but not alright for us?
how do I know he is not saved? by the gospel he preaches.
so lets be hypocrites is that what your saying? it is ok for them to say we excuse our sin and are not saved, but not alright for us?
Amen brother E.G.,
Brother James is still learning and God will teach Him the same things He has taught us, discernment. Through His Word,through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Through many sufferings and hard lessons yet to come. Father will show him and instruct him as he has done us in our walk with Christ brother E.G.
If we looked back to the dawning of His Holy Spirit in our hearts and lives (Praise Father, in Christ Jesus and in the name of Father,Son, and Holy Spirit) what did we see brother E.G.? Did we not think all who claimed to be Christian were in fact Christian only to look back and realize that the most wicked men pretend to be Christian so they could cloak themselves and blend in with the beloved children of God to devour them?
Lot's of work that God has done in us through Christ Jesus that brother James is yet to learn. He will know soon enough when he is brought into the furnace of affliction and then he will be just like us afterward.
Until then brother James be slow to judging your real brothers here at CC like E.G. Pray and read the scriptures daily and nourish up on milk for you will grow in understanding and God will lead you into all truth opening the eyes and ears of your understanding . Also be of sober mind lest you continue to be beguiled by the enemy and his children and become unfruitful in your faith. We will be praying for you as we continue to do so for all of our brothers and sisters.
Brother James is still learning and God will teach Him the same things He has taught us, discernment. Through His Word,through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Through many sufferings and hard lessons yet to come. Father will show him and instruct him as he has done us in our walk with Christ brother E.G.
If we looked back to the dawning of His Holy Spirit in our hearts and lives (Praise Father, in Christ Jesus and in the name of Father,Son, and Holy Spirit) what did we see brother E.G.? Did we not think all who claimed to be Christian were in fact Christian only to look back and realize that the most wicked men pretend to be Christian so they could cloak themselves and blend in with the beloved children of God to devour them?
Lot's of work that God has done in us through Christ Jesus that brother James is yet to learn. He will know soon enough when he is brought into the furnace of affliction and then he will be just like us afterward.
Until then brother James be slow to judging your real brothers here at CC like E.G. Pray and read the scriptures daily and nourish up on milk for you will grow in understanding and God will lead you into all truth opening the eyes and ears of your understanding . Also be of sober mind lest you continue to be beguiled by the enemy and his children and become unfruitful in your faith. We will be praying for you as we continue to do so for all of our brothers and sisters.
if we could never have salvation before we obeyed His commands we would never have salvation We obtain salvation because we are sinners with no power and no hope and come to the Saviour asking Him to save us. At that moment we receive salvation. Obedience follows if we are truly saved. And having been saved once for all we begin to go through the process of 'being saved'. Our bodies have been washed, we need to go on washing our feet.
a man is saved whilst he is still ungodly. (Rom 4.5) The CONSEQUENCE is that He will love and begin to obey Christ.
W
Seems like people are talking about different things. When God first comes to us.....Either we have some light or knowledge of God, although deep and covered, or God open our eyes and ears for a moment to here his call and see spiritual things. This is one point linearly. But after , we start walking ,Christ in us, sometimes yield to the flesh. We learn, we also let God work in us, outward and inward, Then we Stand, upright by the Holy Spirit, we do the works of God by believing on Jesus, we labor to enter into his rest, and Sabbath. Eph. speaks of sitting with Christ in heavenly places. And beseeches us to walk worthy of the calling were in we are called, and to stand in the strength of the lord and the power of His might against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness, and we stand in Christ ,having done all to withstand that evil day.
Those lost Jews in Acts 2 heard Peter's sermon, understood it and realized their lost condition and asked what they must do. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. They were lost yet able to obey Peter's command to be saved. Refusing to obey would have left them lost.
Christ saves those that obey Him (Heb 5:9) not those that continue in disobedience.
Those that are ungodly and remain that way will be lost 2 Pet 3:7.
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
God justifies the ungodly, but how? Does God justify the ungodly while the ungodly continues in their ungodliness? No. Does God justify the ungodly while the ungodly remain faithless? No. Does God justify the ungodly when they have faith only? No. God justify the ungodly when the ungodly does obedient works? Yes.
James 2:25 "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"
Rahab was ungodly, a harlot. How was she justified by God? By an obedient work.
The ungodly are not unconditionally justified but justified conditionally by their obedient works.
Christ saves those that obey Him (Heb 5:9) not those that continue in disobedience.
Those that are ungodly and remain that way will be lost 2 Pet 3:7.
Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
God justifies the ungodly, but how? Does God justify the ungodly while the ungodly continues in their ungodliness? No. Does God justify the ungodly while the ungodly remain faithless? No. Does God justify the ungodly when they have faith only? No. God justify the ungodly when the ungodly does obedient works? Yes.
James 2:25 "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"
Rahab was ungodly, a harlot. How was she justified by God? By an obedient work.
The ungodly are not unconditionally justified but justified conditionally by their obedient works.
W
In order to come to God we must believe that He Is, and the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him! And that belief is counted for righteousness The issue of works, such a long discussed subject here.I think obedience does have some bearing on this , for Christ learned obedience through the things he sufferd. And when we speak of works ,are we thinking our works or the Holy Spirit's work with in us? Is our belief in the promise and the Spirit working in and through us, and a new birth into Gods family and a change in our nature. Paul said we have this treasure (Spirit ) in earthen vessels (body) so that the excellency of the power may shown to be of God and not ourselves. Maybe none of this matters because many who profess themselves wise and bear Christ name don't have any power of the Spirit so there would be nothing to show the world anyway. Paul also said he was delivered unto death daily that the life Of Jesus would be manifest in his mortal flesh. So what are we talking about here, being righteous before being righteous?????? Our first act of obedience and righteousness is Believing in God!!Today if you hear his voice, harden not your heart, as in the days of provocation when they tempted in the wilderness.What were they tempted to do? to not trust in God's complete Rest for them. Their clothes did not ware, water out of rock, manna, meat from heaven, But they did not want to live in this rest. The same rest that has been left unto us says Heb. Tell me how righteous the Holy Spirit in you is???? Or praise God for his great grace and mercy and GreaT LOVE WHEREBY HE HAS ADOPTED US, and has given us His own nature through the Holy Spirit of Christ.Im getting dizzy by watching so many chase their own tails. and if you don't want to be obedient ...Don't and if you do want to obey his voice do it But as you know the whole world lies in wickedness, and if they persecuted Jesus they will persecute you, because his Spirit dwells in you, for you will reign with him ,if so be that you also suffer with him. I struggle with this all the time. With keeping my eye single I mean, as buying and possessing not , as using this world but not abusing it, and confess that I am a stranger and pilgrim here and wait patiently with long suffering for that which is to come.PRAISE GOD
so they were saved because they obeyed Peter?. I can see you are a good Roman Catholic.
They were saved because the Holy Spirit was mightily at work and 'sanctified' them so that they sought Christ, which is the way any true 'conversion' takes place (1 Peter 1.2).
Sorry but you are so very wrong. He saves those who come to Him in their desperate plight and unable to do anything about it. So in their ungodly state they call on Him to be their Saviour (Rom 4.5). If they are truly saved obedience will follow.
True, but they cannot make themselves godly. If they are to be saved it is Christ Who transforms them so that they become godly once they have put their trust in Him (Ephes 2.8-10)
This contradicts all that you have said.
Yes I can see you are a good Roman Catholic. According to Rom 4.5 He accounts them as righteous while they are still ungodly. At the same time He works a new creative work in them which produces in them a desire to be godly (2 Cor 5.17; John 3.1-7). So YES He justifies them simply as a consequence of them putting their trust in Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.
You must have different Bible from me. My Bible does not speak here of being justified by GOD. James said 'I by my works will show you my faith'. Thus he is speaking about being justified in MEN's eyes.
Rahab was justified in God's eyes when she believed God and showed favour to the men. God saw her faith in Him and it was accounted to her for righteousness. This is demonstrated by the previous description of how Abraham was justified. It was in MEN's eyes that she was justified by her works. To them her words revealed her faith.
The ungodly who believe in Jesus Christ and put their trust in Him for salvation are IMMEDIATELY accounted as righteous by God by faith without works (Eph 2.8-9; Rom 3.24; 5.1; 8.1). Their justification is complete, full and permanent.
As a consequence they are born from above by the Spirit of God and become a new creation. Old things pass away and everything becomes new. What they then become shows men that they have been justified by God BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (Rom 3.28; Eph 2.8-10; Titus 3.4-7)
They were saved because the Holy Spirit was mightily at work and 'sanctified' them so that they sought Christ, which is the way any true 'conversion' takes place (1 Peter 1.2).
Sorry but you are so very wrong. He saves those who come to Him in their desperate plight and unable to do anything about it. So in their ungodly state they call on Him to be their Saviour (Rom 4.5). If they are truly saved obedience will follow.
True, but they cannot make themselves godly. If they are to be saved it is Christ Who transforms them so that they become godly once they have put their trust in Him (Ephes 2.8-10)
This contradicts all that you have said.
Yes I can see you are a good Roman Catholic. According to Rom 4.5 He accounts them as righteous while they are still ungodly. At the same time He works a new creative work in them which produces in them a desire to be godly (2 Cor 5.17; John 3.1-7). So YES He justifies them simply as a consequence of them putting their trust in Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.
You must have different Bible from me. My Bible does not speak here of being justified by GOD. James said 'I by my works will show you my faith'. Thus he is speaking about being justified in MEN's eyes.
Rahab was justified in God's eyes when she believed God and showed favour to the men. God saw her faith in Him and it was accounted to her for righteousness. This is demonstrated by the previous description of how Abraham was justified. It was in MEN's eyes that she was justified by her works. To them her words revealed her faith.
The ungodly who believe in Jesus Christ and put their trust in Him for salvation are IMMEDIATELY accounted as righteous by God by faith without works (Eph 2.8-9; Rom 3.24; 5.1; 8.1). Their justification is complete, full and permanent.
As a consequence they are born from above by the Spirit of God and become a new creation. Old things pass away and everything becomes new. What they then become shows men that they have been justified by God BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS (Rom 3.28; Eph 2.8-10; Titus 3.4-7)
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no faith is not obedience. you do not say to yourself 'now I will exercise faith'. you have faith because you receive the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His saving work and your response is to believe and commit yourself to Jesus Christ for salvation. There is no merit in it. You are simply receiving a welcome gift.
Of course if you are truly saved obedience will follow. But you are not saved because of your obedience. You obey because you have already been saved. Salvation is free and without works because Jesus paid the whole price.
Your problem is that you look at the two ends and fail to see the most important part in the middle, because your church has filled you with incorrect ideas which you read in to what the Bible says..
Of course if you are truly saved obedience will follow. But you are not saved because of your obedience. You obey because you have already been saved. Salvation is free and without works because Jesus paid the whole price.
Your problem is that you look at the two ends and fail to see the most important part in the middle, because your church has filled you with incorrect ideas which you read in to what the Bible says..
Eg,
Can you explain if one says that the MOTIVATION for good works is love,how is that person is being SELF RIGHTEOUS? Can love ever BOAST? Can love ever think more highly of itself?
1 Corinthians 13
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I asked Sebass this question back in post # 567
This was his response in post # 578
Now please explain how obeying OUT OF LOVE can be SELF RIGHTEOUS. This should be good.
Can you explain if one says that the MOTIVATION for good works is love,how is that person is being SELF RIGHTEOUS? Can love ever BOAST? Can love ever think more highly of itself?
1 Corinthians 13
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I asked Sebass this question back in post # 567
This was his response in post # 578
Now please explain how obeying OUT OF LOVE can be SELF RIGHTEOUS. This should be good.
It is not self-evident at all. The wonder of the Gospel is that one can become accepted as righteous in God's eye without a speck of one's own righteousness.
You are of those who 'being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the finish of the Law (by which men seek to establish their own righteousness) UNTO righteousness (His righteousness) to everyone who believes' (Rom 10.3-4).
We are freely (without effort or cost) accounted as righteous by God's undeserved love and favour (grace) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through His blood (Rom 3.24-25). It is ALL of God without works (verse 28).
as your premiss is wrong, your conclusion is wrong. Indeed until we have been accounted as righteous and spiritually transformed by God, we CANNOT do righteousness. Until that has taken place nothing we do is seen as righteous by God.
You are of those who 'being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the finish of the Law (by which men seek to establish their own righteousness) UNTO righteousness (His righteousness) to everyone who believes' (Rom 10.3-4).
We are freely (without effort or cost) accounted as righteous by God's undeserved love and favour (grace) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through His blood (Rom 3.24-25). It is ALL of God without works (verse 28).
as your premiss is wrong, your conclusion is wrong. Indeed until we have been accounted as righteous and spiritually transformed by God, we CANNOT do righteousness. Until that has taken place nothing we do is seen as righteous by God.