Hebrews 6:1-6

[eternally-gratefull]

God is not looking for flawless keeping of Christ's NT law but a faithful obedience. The disobedient cannot be saved while they continue to live in their disobedience.

Again, a straw man.

God gave us the standard if we want to earn our salvation, that standard was the law. You have failed to live up to Gods standard. as have I and everyone else in this room.

Thus we are left with the cross. or eternal death as per the law.

Thats your two choices. pick one or the other, in the end, that is what you will be judged by.

 

[SarahM777]

Again, a straw man.

God gave us the standard if we want to earn our salvation, that standard was the law. You have failed to live up to Gods standard. as have I and everyone else in this room.

Thus we are left with the cross. or eternal death as per the law.

Thats your two choices. pick one or the other, in the end, that is what you will be judged by.

Can one say they love Christ if one does NOT obey? Can one say they have faith in Christ if one does not obey?

 

[valiant]

Eg,

Can you explain if one says that the MOTIVATION for good works is love,how is that person is being SELF RIGHTEOUS? Can love ever BOAST? Can love ever think more highly of itself?

there is a difference between SAYING that the motivation is love from it actually being so. many a person SAYS he/she are acting in love when in fact they have other motives, including self-righteousness. The inquisition claimed that it was acting in love, when its motive was arrogance and self-righteousness. in fact saying that my motive is love might be an indication of my self-righteousness, it sounds so noble.

1 Corinthians 13

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

this is true love, there are few who demonstrate it. and those who claim to do so are usually self-righteous

Now please explain how obeying OUT OF LOVE can be SELF RIGHTEOUS. This should be good.

it can't, but saying you obey out of love is usually self righteous. the one who truly loves will be humble enough not to claim to do so or even think it themselves. they will leave others to judge.

 

[valiant]

Can one say they love Christ if one does NOT obey? Can one say they have faith in Christ if one does not obey?

but that is not the question eg was answering, the question was how one can be saved.

true love is the consequence of salvation not its cause.

 

[SarahM777]

there is a difference between SAYING that the motivation is love from it actually being so. many a person SAYS he/she are acting in love when in fact they have other motives, including self-righteousness. The inquisition claimed that it was acting in love, when its motive was arrogance and self-righteousness. in fact saying that my motive is love might be an indication of my self-righteousness, it sounds so noble.

[/COLOR]


this is true love, there are few who demonstrate it. and those who claim to do so are usually self-righteous



it can't, but saying you obey out of love is usually self righteous. the one who truly loves will be humble enough not to claim to do so or even think it themselves. they will leave others to judge.

So are YOU able to judge the motives of the heart? If so when did you judge all the motives of YOUR OWN HEART? So when you,Eg and others say you obey out of love are you all self righteous yourselves?

 

[SarahM777]

but that is not the question eg was answering, the question was how one can be saved.

true love is the consequence of salvation not its cause.

Can one be saved if they DO NOT SHOW ANY SIGNS OF OBEYING?

 

[valiant]

God is not looking for flawless keeping of Christ's NT law but a faithful obedience. The disobedient cannot be saved while they continue to live in their disobedience.

Are you never disobedient? If you say 'no' I don't believe you. We are all disobedient in many ways without even realising it. The reason we need saving is because naturally we are disobedient to God's ways. Only Christ can work constant obedience in us. It is the CONSEQUENCE of salvation. God does not say 'if you are a little bit obedient I will save you'. He says, 'I will save you while you are still ungodly if you come to me through Jesus Christ and what He has done for you. They are thus saved BEFORE they commence obedience. Indeed were they not the could not commence true obedience.

you want to be saved by your own obedience with a little help from God. But God saves WITHOUT WORKS. Works will follow as a consequence of being saved. You put the chicken before the egg .

 

[valiant]

Can one be saved if they DO NOT SHOW ANY SIGNS OF OBEYING?

your question is ambiguous and cannot therefore be answered.

One MUST be saved before one shows signs of obedience. For at that stage one is ungodly. But once one is saved then obedience will follow.

 

[SarahM777]

your question is ambiguous and cannot therefore be answered.

One MUST be saved before one shows signs of obedience. For at that stage one is ungodly. But once one is saved then obedience will follow.

Are you really sure about? Can anyone be saved if they do not obey the Gospel? Is anyone saved BEFORE or AFTER they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Can anyone be saved if THEY DO NOT DO the FIRST command that Jesus tells us to do?

 

[mailmandan]

"Walking in the light" where walking is a work, an obedient work in doing what the word of Christ, the light, says to do.

Walking in the light is directly related to following Jesus, who said, "I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life" (John 8:12). Walking in darkness is the exact opposite of walking in the light. To walk is to con*duct one*self in a cer*tain man*ner; to live; to walk. Walk*ing in the light is syn*ony*mous for the Chris*t*ian way of life. Those who walk in the light practice righteousness and not sin and also love their brother and those who walk in darkness practice sin and not righteousness and hate their brother (1 John 2:9-11; 3:9-10).

Lk 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Did they walk in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord in order to become righteous or because they were righteous by faith? Which is cause and which is effect? Do you believe blameless means they lived sinless, without fault or defect, flawless perfect lives 100% of the time?

Gen 17:1 "

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

What does Genesis 15:6 say? Abraham walked before God, became perfect and it was merited to him for righteousness? NO. Abraham BELIEVED the Lord and it was credited to him for righteousness. Abraham walked before God because he was a righteous man, not in order to become a righteous man.

Lev 18:4 "

Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God."

Lev 26:3,12 "If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;....And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.....And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me....Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins."

1 Kings 8:61 "Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day."

Rom 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

I could have posted more verses on an obedient walking but according to you, all the walking cited above is legalism.....unless you argue one can be saved by NOT keeping Christ's commands/NOT walking in the light/NOt walking according to Christ's word.

So the only thing you see when you read these verses is salvation by works/legalism? I NEVER said that all the walking cited above is legalism. It's not legalism when it's done for the right reason with the right motivation. Salvation by works is NOT the right reason or the right motivation. I am not arguing that those who do NOT keep Christ's commands and walk in darkness not walking according to Christ's word will be saved anyway. That is descriptive of lost unbelievers, not born again believers. Keeping Christ's commands/walking in the light according to Christ's word is descriptive of those who are saved. You continue to put the cart before the horse.

Col 2:12-14 I have faith/trust in the work of God when He did the work of removing my body of sin when I obeyed in submitting to water baptism. Some do not have this faith/trust in God refusing to be baptized where by God will cut away their body of sin also.

Without faith in Christ we don't obey by getting water baptized. We just get wet. Works apart from faith is not obedience. You have faith/trust in water baptism/works to save you (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) and your faith/trust is not exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption to save you (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). We are saved by grace through faith and not by water and works.

In Colossians 2:12, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God. Physical circumcision was not necessary for salvation in the Old Testament, for Abraham was saved when he BELIEVED before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6). The same applies to physical water baptism in the New Testament (Acts 10:43-48). Raised with Him through faith in the working of God. The working of God is Spirit baptism and raising Him from the dead, not water baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 4:24). Notice, "by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into ONE BODY..." (1 Corinthians 12:13). Also notice, "It shall be imputed to us who BELIEVE IN HIM who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.." (Romans 4:24). That is God's work. The object of our faith in receiving salvation is Christ's finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24), not water baptism.

In regards to refusing to be water baptized. In Luke 7:29, we read - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. I don't believe that baptism magically made them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Just like becoming a disciple of Jesus is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision that is made prior to becoming water baptized. Refusing to become a disciple of Jesus is signified in refusing to be baptized.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg,

Can you explain if one says that the MOTIVATION for good works is love,how is that person is being SELF RIGHTEOUS? Can love ever BOAST? Can love ever think more highly of itself?

1 Corinthians 13

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I asked Sebass this question back in post # 567

Good question. I especially like the bolded part. Here we have in writing from the mouth of God that true love keeps no record of wrongs. This is the love God for us.

Then it expands. It is patient, Kind, NOT SELF SEEKING, ALWAYS protects, not easily angered, and perseveres.

This is the love God has for us. If we see this in him, and TrUST that he is this kind of God. then we have the ability to have faith in him, At which point, we have the capacity to share this love with others.

Some thoughts.

1. Nothing in this list is self focused (for gain of anything)
2. This love does not expect you to return the favor. it loves you no matter what (otherwise it is self focused, and not love)
3. This love is the love God has for us, which the more we mature in Christ, the more capacity we have to live it out in our lives, but we will never be perfect at it.
4. Since ANYTHING which falls short of these guidelines is SIN. And we can not do it perfectly, it proves we can not be sinless.
5. WHat many do not understand, is that failure to do all of these, is just as bad in God's eyes as committing murder, rape or adultry (which we do, because we do not have these characteristics, or are not following them at the time.) and why people like sea bass and Jason do not realise how sinful they are, because their minds are focused on their pet sins, and not on the love God wants us to do.

This was his response in post # 578

Now please explain how obeying OUT OF LOVE can be SELF RIGHTEOUS. This should be good.

Here is his problem.

He thinks love is obeying commands (law) he has it backwards, Love is not the act of obeying Gods commands, Obeying Gods commands are the fruit of acting in faith and love.

He is acting to recieve something. Not acting because he loves, he is focused on rules. not focused on people.

Jesus ws not focused on rules. he was focused on people. that focus led him to the cross. and my salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can one say they love Christ if one does NOT obey? Can one say they have faith in Christ if one does not obey?

See, you asked it backwards, which is the root of the problem.

Can one have faith and love, and never do a thing the one he CLAIMS to have faith in, and love, says.

If I say I love you, bet NEVER serve you. Do I really love you?

If I say I trust you, but never take your advice, do I really trust you?

 

[Skinski7]

Are you never disobedient? If you say 'no' I don't believe you. We are all disobedient in many ways without even realising it. The reason we need saving is because naturally we are disobedient to God's ways. Only Christ can work constant obedience in us. It is the CONSEQUENCE of salvation. God does not say 'if you are a little bit obedient I will save you'. He says, 'I will save you while you are still ungodly if you come to me through Jesus Christ and what He has done for you. They are thus saved BEFORE they commence obedience. Indeed were they not the could not commence true obedience.

you want to be saved by your own obedience with a little help from God. But God saves WITHOUT WORKS. Works will follow as a consequence of being saved. You put the chicken before the egg .

The simple truth is that God saves without the obedience to the letter of the law of Moses.

Don't be so foolish to throw obedience itself out the window.

The Bible teaches very clearly that we are to obey from the heart and that by doing so we are set free from sin. Obey what? Righteousness. In other words we are to DO the right thing from the heart.

The Bible teaches obedience unto salvation, not salvation unto obedience.

What many people do it try to mix "obedience unto righteousness" with "not of works of the law" together and thus hold to a position where "doing" is considered legalism.

What saves a sinner is the implanted Logos within our hearts. A sinner must "receive" the implanted word within and that can ONLY occur if one first repents and thus forsakes the service of evil. In other words one cannot "follow Jesus" if one refuses to stop "following Satan." Thus the adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, cheating, lusting etc. stops BEFORE salvation because salvation is being saved FROM those things.

Jesus saves us FROM our sins, He doesn't save us IN them.

Let God be thanked that we HAVE obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine once delivered and have therefore been set free FROM sin and made into servants of righteousness. Obedience unto righteousness, righteousness unto holiness, the end of which is everlasting life.

It is all so very simple. Just DO what Jesus said to DO.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So are YOU able to judge the motives of the heart? If so when did you judge all the motives of YOUR OWN HEART? So when you,Eg and others say you obey out of love are you all self righteous yourselves?

why would I go around and BRAG about how well I obey? Thats not what we are called to do. That would make me a self righteous bigot. and a liar (because under the law. I still do not obey very well, and am condemned)

We are called to serve others. If you serve others, you are obeying. but your focus is not on obeying, that is why the law will NEVER make anyone righteous (in saving them eternally, or being morally upright people) because it was never intended to do such a thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can one be saved if they DO NOT SHOW ANY SIGNS OF OBEYING?

Are you God? Only he can tell how well one is obeying, Your going to judge when Even Jesus said judge not lest ye yourself be judged?

Can one who has faith, and never do a thing the person he CLAIMS to have faith in suggests?

To many people are stuck in the obeying part. and fail to see the faith and love part.

 

[SarahM777]

Are you God? Only he can tell how well one is obeying, Your going to judge when Even Jesus said judge not lest ye yourself be judged?

Can one who has faith, and never do a thing the person he CLAIMS to have faith in suggests?

To many people are stuck in the obeying part. and fail to see the faith and love part.

Sorry EG,

But this what Jesus PLAINLY says

John 15

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. [SUP]12 [/SUP]My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [SUP]14[/SUP]You are my friends if you do what I command. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is my command: Love each other.

John 14

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John writes this


2 John 1


[SUP]4 [/SUP]It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Good luck on trying to divorce OBEYING Him from LOVING HIM. Jesus ties the two so close together that He even says the ONE THAT LOVES HIM OBEYS HIS COMMANDS. Your beef is with Jesus.

 

[Skinski7]

Are you really sure about? Can anyone be saved if they do not obey the Gospel? Is anyone saved BEFORE or AFTER they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Can anyone be saved if THEY DO NOT DO the FIRST command that Jesus tells us to do?

The Bible teaches "repentance unto salvation."

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The fruit of godly sorrow is...

1. Carefulness.
2. A clearing of wrongdoing.
3. Indignation over sin.
4. A fear of God.
5. A vehement desire for righteousness.
6. A zeal for truth and righteousness.
7. Revenge against sin (ie. makes things right, restitution, conduct change).

In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Clear - hagnos
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

That is what Paul taught regarding repentance.


Paul also taught that we are saved from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of Moses could not do that. Salvation is of the Spirit which is why we must WALK after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us who WALK after the Spirit. Hence...

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The Galatians had fallen into the error of thinking that somehow going back to the law of Moses would perfect them. Their focus had shifted from "walking according to the Spirit" to "obedience to the letter of the law," hence them seeking physical circumcision.

So many people today twist the writings of Paul to argue in favour of any position of "obedience unto righteousness" being MANDATORY as being a "works salvation." These people are both deceived and liars, whether they be well intentioned or not. Without obedience none will see God. Without doing none will enter the kingdom.

I read statements like this,

"They are thus saved BEFORE they commence obedience. Indeed were they not the could not commence true obedience."

It is sickening. The thought that one can be "saved" and still disobedient to God is so stupid and foolish. The thought that one can still be in rebellion and yet be justified at the same time. Pure nonsense.

These people literally believe that a murderer or child molester can be "saved in position" and thus "accepted by God" whilst the murder and molestation continues. Unbelievable.

Who is fooling who here?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry EG,

But this what Jesus PLAINLY says

John 15

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. [SUP]12 [/SUP]My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. [SUP]14[/SUP]You are my friends if you do what I command. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is my command: Love each other.

John 14

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love me, keep my commands. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [SUP]17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[SUP][c][/SUP] in you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John writes this


2 John 1


[SUP]4 [/SUP]It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Good luck on trying to divorce OBEYING Him from LOVING HIM. Jesus ties the two so close together that He even says the ONE THAT LOVES HIM OBEYS HIS COMMANDS. Your beef is with Jesus.

lol.

so that proves you right?

Can you tell what a person does in his heart? you can read minds? so you can judge people by their intentions?

news flash.

works are produced by faith, not the other way around (works do not produce faith) like sea bass, skinski ( I see he drove in) and Jason. are preaching.

 

[valiant]

Are you really sure about?

yes

Can anyone be saved if they do not obey the Gospel?

well it depends on what you mean by 'obey the Gospel'. the problem in this discussion is that words are flung around which are ambiguous and cannot therefore be directly answered,,

if someone rings me up and says 'you have just been bequeathed a hundred million pounds/dollars by a stranger' that is good news. do I 'obey the good news (gospel)' by accepting it? of course. It really means 'will you accept it in view of the fact that it will completely change your life'. If I say 'yes' that is obedience. But certainly it has no merit. For me it is all gain. No one will say 'what a good man he is to accept it'. (they might say what a brave man).

Thus obeying the Gospel by accepting it has similarly no merit. It is accepting something that is all gain for me. If the Holy Spirit works in my life (1 Peter 1.2) and Jesus Christ says 'if you put your trust in My willingness and power to save you I will give you total forgiveness and a new life within you because I died for you and rose again, what merit is there in accepting it? None. The Holy Spirit has made me feel it was acceptable, and impels me to accept it, and I would be a fool not to accept it. And at that moment I am saved (Eph 2.8-10; Titus 3.4-7). I have done no act of righteous obedience. I have simply received a free gift of immense value.

Is anyone saved BEFORE or AFTER they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

in a very real sense it is BEFORE. I actually repent and believe because the Holy Spirit works within me to sanctify me to respond (1 Pet 1.2). In another sense it is at the time that I repent and believe and Jesus clinches the 'deal'. It is never AFTER.

Remember that it is Jesus Christ Who is doing the saving, not me. At the moment I respond and believe He saves me permanently. In the words of Titus 3.4-7 I have been saved once for all. But it began when He purposed to save me and sent His Holy Spirit to begin the saving work. All I do is respond.

Then having accepted me into salvation and having accounted me as righteous and reconciled me to God He begins the process of making me holy. I am being saved. But it is not something that is dependent on me (although I may hinder it for a time). It is His work from start to finish. I simply respond. It is all a free gift. No merit is attached to me.

Can anyone be saved if THEY DO NOT DO the FIRST command that Jesus tells us to do?

what is that? if you mean love my neighbour as myself that follows salvation. It results from His work within me. I CANNOT do it truly unless I am already saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes



well it depends on what you mean by 'obey the Gospel'. the problem in this discussion is that words are flung around which are ambiguous and cannot therefore be directly answered,,

if someone rings me up and says 'you have just been bequeathed a hundred million pounds/dollars by a stranger' that is good news. do I 'obey the good news (gospel)' by accepting it? of course. It really means 'will you accept it in view of the fact that it will completely change your life'. If I say 'yes' that is obedience. But certainly it has no merit. For me it is all gain. No one will say 'what a good man he is to accept it'. (they might say what a brave man).

Thus obeying the Gospel by accepting it has similarly no merit. It is accepting something that is all gain for me. If the Holy Spirit works in my life (1 Peter 1.2) and Jesus Christ says 'if you put your trust in My willingness and power to save you I will give you total forgiveness and a new life within you because I died for you and rose again, what merit is there in accepting it? None. The Holy Spirit has made me feel it was acceptable, and impels me to accept it, and I would be a fool not to accept it. And at that moment I am saved (Eph 2.8-10; Titus 3.4-7). I have done no act of righteous obedience. I have simply received a free gift of immense value.

So true, in order to receive it, you first had to have faith that what you were being offered was real and not a scam. otherwise you would not have taken it. whch is why it is so hard for people to beieve in faith alone, they can't believe the God of the universe would offer something so precious to someone who does not deserve it, or even know him.

instead they want to work for it. and mock the git itself. because the giver already paid for it with his work.