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It is self-evident that you cannot be a servant of some thing that you do not serve.
1) why is one a servant of unrighteousness? He does/serves unrighteousness.
2) why is one a servant of righteousness? He does/serve righteousness.
Many have no problem with #1 yet #2 presents a theological problem for them.
You quoted Rom 10:3 but did you even notice how Paul said those Jew were lost for they had not submitted the righteousness of God? Those Jews could have been saved if they would have simply submitted/obeyed the righteousness commands of God.
You posted "Indeed until we have been accounted as righteous and spiritually transformed by God, we CANNOT do righteousness."
1) the bible does not teach this. And you are creating the impossibility of one being accounted as righteous when he has DONE NO righteousness at all.
2) it puts moral culpability upon God for those that are unrighteous for God has failed to "spiritually transform" them whereby they can be accounted as righteous.
3) John says as as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness he CONTINUES to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10. You are contradicting this by saying one CAN be of God while NOT doing righteousness.
E
No. My issue with you is you are a pharisee, and blind to it.
You teach works salvation. NOT salvation by grace.
Well if it could be lost. then it is not of grace, it is of works. and it is earned by your actions.
But don;t you keep saying you are not teaching works salvation? or earning salvation?
See, your talking out both ends, and contradicting yourself.
Pornography is breaking the law (do not fornicate or if your married, do not commit adultry) Only this is not a physical act. it is a mental act. which is still sin, and still as condemning as doing the physical act.
Now james said if you break the LEAST of the law, you are found guilty of the WHOLE law.
So are you not just as guilty as that man which is doing pornography, When you do not serve God or your neighbor with a selfless heart? or when someone cuts you off the road, and you yell profanities at him in anger?
Well according to james, Yes you are just as guilty.
so as we see, according to you. No person will ever get to heaven, because all people have a sin issue they are dealing with (no one is perfect)
Thus your question is nothing but a strawman. [/quote]
no. in my mind, ALL SIN is evil. Unlike you, I do not excuse my own sin, and judge others, I fall on my knees and admit t God I am an evil person not worthy of his salvation every day, And ask God to help me with my thoughts.
You could not do this, because then you would have to admit your not saved, because you would never admit you have evil thoughts, even though according to the law. You do!
You water down the law to suit your own personal agenda. and reject the law and grace of God
And your right, the issue is the heart.
My heart comes humbly before God every day. Because I know I am unworthy
Your heart goes prroudly before God every day saying "Thank God I am not like the sinner" because you think you are worthy.
Heart purity is doing everything with a selfless attitude. Not in order to get ANYTHING IN RETURN, it is unconditionally giving.
Something you know nothing about.
You teach works salvation. NOT salvation by grace.
Well if it could be lost. then it is not of grace, it is of works. and it is earned by your actions.
But don;t you keep saying you are not teaching works salvation? or earning salvation?
See, your talking out both ends, and contradicting yourself.
Pornography is breaking the law (do not fornicate or if your married, do not commit adultry) Only this is not a physical act. it is a mental act. which is still sin, and still as condemning as doing the physical act.
Now james said if you break the LEAST of the law, you are found guilty of the WHOLE law.
So are you not just as guilty as that man which is doing pornography, When you do not serve God or your neighbor with a selfless heart? or when someone cuts you off the road, and you yell profanities at him in anger?
Well according to james, Yes you are just as guilty.
so as we see, according to you. No person will ever get to heaven, because all people have a sin issue they are dealing with (no one is perfect)
Thus your question is nothing but a strawman. [/quote]
no. in my mind, ALL SIN is evil. Unlike you, I do not excuse my own sin, and judge others, I fall on my knees and admit t God I am an evil person not worthy of his salvation every day, And ask God to help me with my thoughts.
You could not do this, because then you would have to admit your not saved, because you would never admit you have evil thoughts, even though according to the law. You do!
You water down the law to suit your own personal agenda. and reject the law and grace of God
And your right, the issue is the heart.
My heart comes humbly before God every day. Because I know I am unworthy
Your heart goes prroudly before God every day saying "Thank God I am not like the sinner" because you think you are worthy.
Heart purity is doing everything with a selfless attitude. Not in order to get ANYTHING IN RETURN, it is unconditionally giving.
Something you know nothing about.
Where is the straw man?
What verse says God requires me to be perfectly flawlessly sinless?
When you posted "that standard was the law" What law are you talking about? The law of Moses? No one can be saved by keeping that law for 1) it does not justify but only brings God's wrath and 2) Christ took that law out of the way nailing it to His cross, Heb 10:9; Col 2:14 making it inactive, ineffective. Yet one is saved by obeying Christ's NT law/gospel for God will have vengeance upon those that "obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thess 1:8.
What verse says God requires me to be perfectly flawlessly sinless?
When you posted "that standard was the law" What law are you talking about? The law of Moses? No one can be saved by keeping that law for 1) it does not justify but only brings God's wrath and 2) Christ took that law out of the way nailing it to His cross, Heb 10:9; Col 2:14 making it inactive, ineffective. Yet one is saved by obeying Christ's NT law/gospel for God will have vengeance upon those that "obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Thess 1:8.
No, I am not perfectly sinless but as I have said many times, God is not looking for perfect sinlessness on my part but a faithful obedience. If I faithfully continue to walk in the light, 1 Jn 1:7, the Christ's blood continues to cleanse away ALL my sins when I am not perfectly obedient.
No verse tells me God will save me while I continue to disobey Him.
Again, Acts 2, after preaching the gospel to those Jews on Pentecost, they were pricked in their hearts and asked what must we "DO"?
Peter responded by giving them commands of God to be obeyed in order to be saved.
Peter did NOT tell them do not works and ye shall be saved. God was NOT going to save them without their obedience to Peter's command.
E
ever read the OT. Ever read paul? If your going to try to earn salvation, or not lose it, thats your standard. period!
lol. The NT law is the same as the law of moses. there is no difference, the moral law has always been the same. It was what condemned us before moses was given the law. after he gave it, In Christ's day, and today.
That is what jesus paid the penalty, the curse which comes from not being able to fulfill Gods moral law. He did it by fulfilling the TYPES of the mosaic law.
You are not obeying the gospel of Christ, your trying to EARN IT. That is DISOBEYING the gospel
Walking/following is a work, an obedient work and the Christian cannot continue to have all his sin cleansed away/be saved if he does not continue in the obedient work of walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7.
Lk 1:6 does NOT say John's parents were righteous before God by faith only. They were blameless, not because they were perfectly sinless, but because they walked/obeyed the commandments and statutes of God. God's OT law allowed for various types of sacrifices for sins and John's parents would have obeyed in keeping those sacrifices for sins leaving them blameless before God.
Abraham WALKED before God, walked here means he obeyed God, Heb 11:8,17. Walked does not mean he had belief only. And Paul said in Rom 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." Again, 'walk' means to obey God as Abraham did, we are to walk/obey in the steps of that faith of Abraham.
Those verses I quoted from the OT show how the word "walk" is used to refer to obeying God as "walking in the light" in 1 Jn 1:7 refers to an obedient work. Walking/obeying God is not legalism but is called "righteousness" as John's parents "walking" made them righteous not legalists, Lk 1:6.
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One is either walking in darkness or walks in the light, no inbetween.
1 Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Here walking in darkness is equivalent to not doing the truth. It is not possible for one who continues to walk in darkness/that continues to do not the truth to ever be saved. Obviously he must first do the truth to be saved...."But he that doeth truth cometh to the light" Jn 3:21. One is in the dark and remains in the dark until he doeth truth.
You are trying to find a way to get one to the light WITHOUT first DOING the truth.
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Christ's NT baptism of the great commission in Col 2:12 is not an anti-type to OT circumcision. If it were then only males could be baptized and would have to be baptized on the 8th day yet baptism for remission of sins is for all.
Col 2:11 when one is water baptized a spiritual circumcision takes place, a circumcision without hands where God does the work of removing the body of sin.
1) this removal of the body of sin (salvation/remission of sins) does not take place until one is baptized.
2) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen Col 2:12. Says nothing about a baptism "made without hands" but baptizo means a literal burial, immersion in water from which one is risen.
Lk 7:29 those that rejected John's baptism were saved to have been rejecting the counsel of God. So what can be said of those that refuse Christ's baptism of the great commission, Mt 28:19,20; Mk 15:15,16; Lk 24:47? They also are rejecting the counsel of God, rejecting the gospel:
Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."
Conversely, those that rejected Peter's gospel sermon rejected baptism. Then those that have not been baptized have not received the gospel.
well of course you can be to begin with, a servant becomes a servant BEFORE he begins to serve. It is only after being appointed a servant that he begins to serve. That is what Paul is talking about. That through coming to Christ, being accounted as righteous by God through faith in Christ and His sacrifice for us, and being saved we BECOME the servants of righteousness. Indeed that is what makes us the servants of righteousness, before that we were the servants of sin.
true but that is simply a definition. It does not describe HOW he became a servant of righteousness.
well it may for some but it presents no problems to those who believe in justification by faith ALONE. The point of becoming Christ's is to become His servants which means becoming servants of righteousness and being righteous..
You can only say that because you have not read Romans properly. The righteousness of God has been earlier defined. It does not mean obeying the righteous commands of God. It means NOT seeking our own righteousness by righteous living, but recognising our need for the righteousness of God upon us and in us. The Jews were dead keen on 'righteousness'. They tried to be the servants of righteousness. But they failed like you will. What they should have done was come under God's righteousness, so that their faith was counted as righteousness, God's righteousness.
That is precisely what it teaches. Read Romans through from the beginning. 'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God being accounted as righteous at no cost by His unmerited love and favour (grace) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus --to Him who doe not work (does not do righteous acts) but believes on Him Who accounts as righteous the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.' (Rom 3.24-2; 4.5)
which is exactly what Rom 4.5 teaches.
You cannot put moral culpability on the One Who determines what righteousness is. It is He Who determines what is righteous. They are unrighteous because they have broken His laws both the law in the conscience and the laws of Sinai. He has no responsibility towards sinners. They have chosen their own path. But He graciously chooses to act towards some of them.
True but this is the CONSEQUENCE of our being saved. I did not say one can be of God and not do righteousness. I said that our righteousness is the CONSEQUENCE of our being saved. If we do not do righteousness AFTER we have been saved it would be evidence that we had not been saved. Jesus Christ does not fail as our Saviour.
Your problem is that you do not have a Saviour Who is able to save.
true but that is simply a definition. It does not describe HOW he became a servant of righteousness.
well it may for some but it presents no problems to those who believe in justification by faith ALONE. The point of becoming Christ's is to become His servants which means becoming servants of righteousness and being righteous..
You can only say that because you have not read Romans properly. The righteousness of God has been earlier defined. It does not mean obeying the righteous commands of God. It means NOT seeking our own righteousness by righteous living, but recognising our need for the righteousness of God upon us and in us. The Jews were dead keen on 'righteousness'. They tried to be the servants of righteousness. But they failed like you will. What they should have done was come under God's righteousness, so that their faith was counted as righteousness, God's righteousness.
That is precisely what it teaches. Read Romans through from the beginning. 'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God being accounted as righteous at no cost by His unmerited love and favour (grace) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus --to Him who doe not work (does not do righteous acts) but believes on Him Who accounts as righteous the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.' (Rom 3.24-2; 4.5)
which is exactly what Rom 4.5 teaches.
You cannot put moral culpability on the One Who determines what righteousness is. It is He Who determines what is righteous. They are unrighteous because they have broken His laws both the law in the conscience and the laws of Sinai. He has no responsibility towards sinners. They have chosen their own path. But He graciously chooses to act towards some of them.
True but this is the CONSEQUENCE of our being saved. I did not say one can be of God and not do righteousness. I said that our righteousness is the CONSEQUENCE of our being saved. If we do not do righteousness AFTER we have been saved it would be evidence that we had not been saved. Jesus Christ does not fail as our Saviour.
Your problem is that you do not have a Saviour Who is able to save.
LOL putting it in red does not change its meaning. the Gospel is not doing righteousness. If it was it would be no Gospel. For none of us can do a righteousness which compares with the righteousness of God. To OBEY the Good News is to receive Christ as our Saviour, to commit our lives to Him for Him to save us, to be accepted as righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, and to experience the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
So I guess its you who will experience His vengeance
So I guess its you who will experience His vengeance
Elin quoted a verse saying no one was righteous. Yet Heb 11:4 says Abel was righteous.
Heb 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,..."
Abel was righteous for he did righteousness in his offering. His obedient work in offering was the witness that he was righteous. No obedient work = not righteous. Could Abel be called "righteous" if he did not obey God in his offering? No. So he could not be righteous while NOT doing as God said. Again, how can one be "right doing" if he does no "right doing" at all? How can one be a servant of righteousnes when he does no righteousness? Not possible.
Heb 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God" so Abel's faith INCLUDED the obedient work of offering unto God not void of obedient works. The Hebrew writer did not say "by faith only Abel obtained witness he was righteous".
E
lol. they do not get it.
It is not good news to say obey me in all these areas, But if you mess up once, Your doomed forever. so ya better not mess up, and if you do, you better get back on the path, and not mess up again. Oh, But if you do. Get back on that path. and dont do it again, Oh, But if you do.......
I think we get the picture of what Sea Bass teaches. that in a nutshell And it is not good news. thus it is no gospel.
and here you immediately reveal your error. The continual cleansing in the blood of Christ is for Christians. When Jesus says, he who is bathed 'needs only to wash his feet' He was speaking of this. So yes the Christian has to walk in the light (keep his life totally open to God's light) so that God will make his sins clear to him so that he seeks daily cleansing. But it is only effective because he has first been 'bathed' (has committed his life to Christ for salvation and trusted Him to save). John is talking to those who are already Christians, not preaching the Gospel.
True, but they had to come to this position by an initial faith in and commitment to God to be circumcised in heart. That had to precede their righteous walk,
True, but they had to come to this position by an initial faith in and commitment to God to be circumcised in heart. That had to precede their righteous walk,
E
Yet I can go get baptized (which is called in the bible a good work or righteousness) to earn salvation (because my focus is not on love but what I can get out of it) Yet what I have performed is an evil act of satan. Because it is a carnal work. (self centered or carnal)
Works don;t prove anything, the heart does. And you can not read anyones heart.
No, James said if we CLAIM we have faith, but do not have even one work (Zero zip nada works) our faith is dead. and their is no truth in us, We may believe in God, we do well. but we have no faith in God whatsoever, because those who have the faith of eph 2: 8-9 will do the works of eph 2: 10.
yet you claim one can be saved, do a bunch of works WHICH PROVES THEIR FAITH, yet still go to hell..
You do not teach james, you twist his words to suit your own gain. That is an evil work of satan. Not a righteous work of God.
Works don;t prove anything, the heart does. And you can not read anyones heart.
No, James said if we CLAIM we have faith, but do not have even one work (Zero zip nada works) our faith is dead. and their is no truth in us, We may believe in God, we do well. but we have no faith in God whatsoever, because those who have the faith of eph 2: 8-9 will do the works of eph 2: 10.
yet you claim one can be saved, do a bunch of works WHICH PROVES THEIR FAITH, yet still go to hell..
You do not teach james, you twist his words to suit your own gain. That is an evil work of satan. Not a righteous work of God.
I do not follow the OT laws but Christ's NT gospel. Where does it say that God requires me to be perfectly sinless. Even in the OT they had a hard time in trying to show the Jews God was not looking for flawless law keeping but a faithful obedience, 1 Sam 15:22.
This is the point Paul is making in Rom 4:4,5. Paul is writing to Jews in Rome that had become Christians yet those Jews were still clinging to the OT law. Paul used Abraham as an example when he pointed out that the OT law could not justify. All the OT law allowed for to be justified was flawless law keeping yet the Jew would eventually sin bring God's wrath upon the Jew, Rom 4:15. The law brought wrath for it required perfect law keeping which the Jew could not do. Abraham was an eacmple of one who sinned, who did not try to earn salvation by flawless law keeping (worketh not) but reckoned righteous by an obedient faith.
The gospel requires obedience to it by believing, Jn 8:24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5, confession, Mt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16. I obeyed these things therefore I have obeyed the gospel. Those who do not obey these things have "not obeyed the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" and God will have vengeance upon them, 2 Thess 1:8 for their lack of obedience. So no one is earning salvation by obedience to the gospel no more than Abraham earned his justification by obeying God in sacrificing Isaac, James 2:21. Your straw man is dying, on life support.
One is not a servant/slave of something he is not serving. Can I be already be a slave to cigarette smoking/cocaine when I do not smoke/use cocaine? Hardly.
Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
Rom 6:18 "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Order of events:
1) slaves of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) THEN slaves of righteousness.
They were not servants of righteousness until they first OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine.
How does one become a servant of sin? By doing sin. If you committed no sin then you would be sinless before God, justified having no sin. So one must DO sin to be a servant of sin. Likewise one must DO righteousness to be a servant of righteouness.
No verse teaches justification by faith alone but the bible say the EXACT OPPOSITE.."NOT justified by faith only" James 2:24.
I have read ROm 10:3 properly.
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
There are 2 completely different works spoken about in this verse:
1) going about to do their own righteousness
2) submitting unto the righteousness of God
Those Jews were lost for they were doing work #1 when they should have been doing work #2 to be saved. The faith only crowd does not want to see a distinction in these two works but try to lump all works together being alike saying a work is a work is a work when they are not.
The idea that God has the responsibility to act first upon mankind to "spiritually transform" man where he can then be rightoeus does put fault and blame upon God. Under this scenario if I am not righteous then it is not my fault but God's fault for failing to spiritually transform me first. You cannot make God 100% accountable and responsible for man being righteous the blame man if he is not righteous. Calvinism does this. But the bible teaches man has a role in his own salvation so if man is not righteous it's his own fault for failing to DO righteousness and not God's fault.
You posted "I did not say one can be of God and not do righteousness."
There are poster here doing their best in trying to find a way to get man to be righteous WITHOUT doing righteous for if he must do righteousness to be righteous then that is a "works based salvation" and he is "trying to earn his savlation" by doing righteous works.
If one cannot be of God and not do righteousness then that can onlhy mean he must do righteousness to be of God.
You post " I said that our righteousness is the CONSEQUENCE of our being saved."
Again, you try and get one FIRST saved THEN do righteousness as a consequence of having already been saved when John said as long as one does NOT do righteousness he continues to NOT be of God. You are trying to get one to be FIRST of God THEN do righteousness and that is not possible according to John's words.
Those in Rom 10:17,18 FIRST obeyed from the heart THEN were slaves of righteousness, You have it backwards from Paul and John.