Hebrews 6:1-6

[JesusIsAll]

Why don't we just call a spade a spade? Man has much vanity, man a proud but fearful creature, and man is uncomfortable with lack of control. Man prefers to believe what he wants to believe, rather than face uncomfortable truths, which will even knock him clean off that pedestal. Psycho man tries to control others. These are none theological issues, as the Bible is clear. The issue is the scary confrontation that we are stupid, vain creatures, who can't save ourselves, are not really all that much, can't stand before Holy God in anything remotely related to our own right, saved or not. It's demeaning, ego deflating and indicating a complete lack of control, to concede we don't have the power to avoid screwing up the entire planet or boiling water (proven if you look at our history, as well as the now). That's a scary thought, a demeaning thought, but it's the stark truth. A broken and stupid, lost creature who can do nothing to save oneself, prostrate before God, is where wisdom begins, and you're just not at the point, "Not me, but Thee," if you think you can do anything to impress God and assist in the sparing of your sorry rear, do anything but to admit you helped crucify Christ, yet need to fall at His feet for mercy, and get off that high horse that is ego, sinful pride of life, creature hubris. Tell me you'll die perfect for your works, that you've done one thing that makes you better in the eyes of God, and I'll tell you you're a deluded liar, and that you need to stop trying to make people doubt what is the Christian faith. I've got news. You've never fooled me for one second, you know who you are, trying to bicker away the faith and push buttons, in that faux sheep's outfit. I scarcely know what your good works can even be, you who barely leave the message board bicker, long enough to do anything else but eat and sleep!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Not a single one of those verses states that Jesus bore the literal punishment you deserved as your substitute.

The iniquity of all was put on Jesus in the sense that He died for the sins of the whole world.

People like you just beat a drum and assert something without any evidence at all. Not only that but you have to throw reason out the window and embrace nonsense.

It is so stupid to believe that a holy and righteous God would literally punish an innocent in order to excuse the guilty. The Bible clearly states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Jesus died in order that the consciences of sinners be purged of their transgressions.

His death has nothing to do with any "sin debt owed" being paid. There is not a single passage anywhere in the Bible which teaches such a thing. Sure one can quote "bore our sins" or "bore our iniquities" but what one cannot quote is "bore our penalty as a substitute rendering it not due anymore." That notion is unbiblical.

Elin, you are a parrot who just repeats the same thing. Like a parrot there is no substance behind the words, it is just rote repetition. A conversation with you is akin to a conversation with a wall.



It is quite astounding that so many people actually believe that God punished a third party in their place thus rendering any wrongdoing they do in future as already "paid for." It is even more astounding that people actually believe that the obedient track record of Jesus is reckoned to their account. Thus these people believe God is actually a great pretender, God is pretending they are righteous whilst they are still manifestly wicked and they also think that God's wrath was satisfied because he took His wrath out on an innocent instead of them.

It is the most asinine and stupid thing to believe.

Anyone can dig into history and see how the different views of the Atonement developed...

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is that many people abide in a comfort zone of their own imagination and to step outside the box, so to speak, would raise too many questions.

If Penal Substitution is taken away from people then what do that have? Suddenly their sin is "not" paid for and a realisation of being fully accountable comes into the equation. Suddenly conduct matters and forgiveness is recognised as being conditional, just like the Bible teaches.

Anyway, I am likely speaking to walls so no need to go on unless someone has a specific question.

All I can say to your post is that you KNOW Neither the Son who died on that Tree, God manifest in the flesh, Jesus the Christ, neither do you know the FATHER who sent Him... your 'doctrine' is not Truth.. the Person of Jesus the Christ, The Gift of Righteousness, He is Truth.. sorry... you remind me of the Scribes and Pharisee's of Jesus Day.. walking around with their doctrine.. sound in the Word.. but with out Eternal Life.. smh... lolz.. smh.. so much of that today!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Then said they unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither Know me, nor My Father: if ye had known Me, ye should have known my Father also. John 8 Indeed!

 

[valiant]

Not a single one of those verses states that Jesus bore the literal punishment you deserved as your substitute.

The iniquity of all was put on Jesus in the sense that He died for the sins of the whole world.

People like you just beat a drum and assert something without any evidence at all. Not only that but you have to throw reason out the window and embrace nonsense.

It is so stupid to believe that a holy and righteous God would literally punish an innocent in order to excuse the guilty. The Bible clearly states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Jesus died in order that the consciences of sinners be purged of their transgressions.

His death has nothing to do with any "sin debt owed" being paid. There is not a single passage anywhere in the Bible which teaches such a thing. Sure one can quote "bore our sins" or "bore our iniquities" but what one cannot quote is "bore our penalty as a substitute rendering it not due anymore." That notion is unbiblical.

Elin, you are a parrot who just repeats the same thing. Like a parrot there is no substance behind the words, it is just rote repetition. A conversation with you is akin to a conversation with a wall.



It is quite astounding that so many people actually believe that God punished a third party in their place thus rendering any wrongdoing they do in future as already "paid for." It is even more astounding that people actually believe that the obedient track record of Jesus is reckoned to their account. Thus these people believe God is actually a great pretender, God is pretending they are righteous whilst they are still manifestly wicked and they also think that God's wrath was satisfied because he took His wrath out on an innocent instead of them.

It is the most asinine and stupid thing to believe.

Anyone can dig into history and see how the different views of the Atonement developed...

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is that many people abide in a comfort zone of their own imagination and to step outside the box, so to speak, would raise too many questions.

If Penal Substitution is taken away from people then what do that have? Suddenly their sin is "not" paid for and a realisation of being fully accountable comes into the equation. Suddenly conduct matters and forgiveness is recognised as being conditional, just like the Bible teaches.

Anyway, I am likely speaking to walls so no need to go on unless someone has a specific question.

But the punishment was not borne by a third party, it was borne by the Judge Himself. We were bought with a price (1 Cor 6.20). He was offered up as a guilt offering on our behalf (Is 53.10). He was our Passover lamb (1 Cor 5,7). If the Passover lamb was not a penal substitute, what was? God's wrath was on Egypt and each lamb was offered for an individual and was slain so that the firstborn might be spared. He died for sin once for all, the righteous One for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God (1 Pet 3.18). He was slain to propitiate the Judge for our sins (Rom 3.24-25; 1 John 2.2). For by one single offering (of Himself) He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified (Heb 10.14). We (who believe) are redeemed though His blood (Eph 1.7). 'Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity' (Tit 2.14). Redemption requires the payment of a price (1 Cor 6.20). While we were yet sinner Christ died for US (Rom 5.8).

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The bible teaches one must be obedient before he can be saved. Having faith is obedience. So one must have an obedient faith before he can be saved, cannot be saved in faithlessness.

Where is the scripture in context?

 

[Skinski7]

But the punishment was not borne by a third party, it was borne by the Judge Himself. We were bought with a price (1 Cor 6.20). He was offered up as a guilt offering on our behalf (Is 53.10). He was our Passover lamb (1 Cor 5,7). If the Passover lamb was not a penal substitute, what was? God's wrath was on Egypt and each lamb was offered for an individual and was slain so that the firstborn might be spared. He died for sin once for all, the righteous One for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God (1 Pet 3.18). He was slain to propitiate the Judge for our sins (Rom 3.24-25; 1 John 2.2). For by one single offering (of Himself) He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified (Heb 10.14). We (who believe) are redeemed though His blood (Eph 1.7). 'Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity' (Tit 2.14). Redemption requires the payment of a price (1 Cor 6.20). While we were yet sinner Christ died for US (Rom 5.8).

Let us try and think outside the box of "popular theology" for a minute. Can you do that?


Not a single passage you referenced states anything about Jesus "paying any kind of sin debt owed as a substitute for the one who ows it." That view is imposed on the text and has been done so for the past 400 years when that view was first developed.

Jesus indeed died on our behalf as a sin offering. Jesus indeed purchased us. Sinners are indeed redeemed through His blood and many other things. What is not true is that Jesus "paid the sin debt you owe therefore cancelling it out."

God freely forgives sins. Forgiveness is not payment.

If you owe a fine due to having committed an offense and then someone pays that fine on your behalf is the fine forgiven? No it isn't. The fine is paid in full.

Jesus paid for YOU. The purchase was for YOU. Jesus suffered on our behalf as an example for us to follow and in doing so He purchased His bride. We had previously sold ourselves into sin through disobedience and had thus forfeited our inheritance. It is through Jesus Christ that the purchased vessel (us) is redeemed (redeem literally means to be set free by payment of a ransom). The ransom price was the blood of Christ which solidified the New Covenant whereby we are able to be partakers in the Ministry of Reconciliation.

The sinner is the offending party, not God. It is the sinner whom has to change in order for reconciliation to take place. The Penal Model reverses this and puts the burden on God to change. That is why under the Penal Model it is taught that God "punishes a substitute" and then "pretends the wicked are in fact righteous." The Penal Model has God changing as the basis of reconciliation. Consider that.

The Bible teaches that it is the sinner who has to change. A sinner forsakes that which caused emnity between them and God, namely sin. The sinner approaches God in repentance and faith by the blood of Jesus seeking a cleansing of their past history of rebellion, ie. a forgiveness of sins and a purging of the associated guilt. If that does not take place there can be no reconciliation.

This understanding has been lost due to the teaching of all the Substitution Models, ie. Satisfaction/Moral Government/Penal Substitution.

I challenge you to look at the history of all those models and you will discover that none go back further than the 11th Century.

The Bible is very clear on this subject. The problem is people have listened to theologians and have uncritically believed what they have been told. People have then formed an emotional attachment to what they have been told because they have invested their perception of "salvation" into it and thus to seriously question it will prove very uncomfortable.

My view is a minority view. My view is a very unpopular view. My view is considered heresy by the learned theologians in the seminaries and by the majority of those who graduate from those seminaries.

Jesus did warn us that MANY would be deceived. Jesus also warned that FEW would be saved. Jesus also told us to "count the cost" and that if we are "to find life we have to lose it." Who teaches that today?

If the light in us be darkness how great is that darkness?


We have to change, not God. Jesus died to affect change in us, not to establish some legal transaction where God can overlook present wickedness and pretend we are righteous.

Please consider these things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, I understand what you mean now, and can see where you're coming from. I mean I always felt you said the right things, I just felt that much of the time they were saying the same thing as you were, just in a different way. This makes sense, and even though I don't think that they always mean it that way necessarily, I agree that the wording can and does make a huge difference depending on the readers perspective. I see your point clearly now, and thank you for taking time to explain it to me even after my less than loving comment yesterday. I was out of line and was in fact doing exactly what I was trying to call you out for. I just love it when I realize I'm being a hypocrite AFTER the fact. This will also be the end of my questioning of your views, lol so I won’t be popping up in every thread you post on or anything like that. 8^P One last Thanks for the conversation and willingness to answer my questions.

no problem, you had questions and asked, if more people would do this,we would not have so much confusion

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Penal Substitution doctrine is the great conscience neutraliser.

wrong

It is a great conscious exciter, and sustainor. and empowers us to love God

What better what for God to PROVE how much he loves us.

There is no hope in your gospel. only fear, and death

 

[Elin]

Nope. . .

A doctrine "invented" by the prophet 2,600 years ago.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." (2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
laid on him our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.

Not a single one of those verses states that Jesus bore the literal punishment you deserved as your substitute.

These Scriptures speak for themselves.

And each can decide for himself whether you have unseated them or not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let us try and think outside the box of "popular theology" for a minute. Can you do that?

Do what? Take the word of God. destroy it twist it and manipulate it so we can puff ourselves up. Place salvation on us, and take it away from God. Make Gods gift of eternal life a lie? because it is no gift at all?

no thanks. Take your gospel of self righteousness someplace else.

 

[MarcR]

But here is the REAL question that is NOT addressed WHO DID those things out of faith? Who DID the work of building the ark? Did God SPEAK the ark into being or did Noah build the ark because He believed God and OUT OF FAITH he built the ark?
Did God do the sacrifice FOR Abel or did Abel do all the prep work to offer the sacrifice out of FAITH? None of those works God DID FOR THEM. None of the works that the men and women of faith did,were done OUT OF RESPONSE in belief.

That is a HUGE distinction that must be made. You can not find anywhere in scripture that there is NO RESPONSE out of faith. Faith always has a DOING with it.

This can quickly become a circular argument.

You see Noah, in faith, building the ark in obedience to God.

I see the Holy Spirit placing in Noah the will and the ability to build the ark.

 

[Skinski7]

Do what? Take the word of God. destroy it twist it and manipulate it so we can puff ourselves up. Place salvation on us, and take it away from God. Make Gods gift of eternal life a lie? because it is no gift at all?

no thanks. Take your gospel of self righteousness someplace else.

The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ.

That means we may be partakers of eternal life on the condition we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation for those whom DO that.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sinning against God brings death. Abiding in Jesus Christ brings life.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ patiently continue in doing good. seeking glory, honour and immortality. This is why there is no rebellion in true salvation. This is why it is foolish to believe that one can engage in wickedness and remain "eternally secure."

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

It is not I who twist the Bible. It is not self righteous to contend for wholehearted obedience to God. Wholehearted obedience to God is the only means by which we may be made the righteousness of God in Him. We have to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

A manifest reality that few experience because they received not a love of the truth that they might be saved.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

''Think outside the Box of Popular theology?''

mmmmmm let me tell you this.. OPEN YOUR HEART AND YOUR EYES.. not your mind.. Open your Heart and Your Eyes... lolz... When God opens your Heart to the Truth and reveals it to you.. then you will 'see' and 'hear'.. and then You will Understand what Calvary is all about.. until then.. your mind with all your doctrine.. keeps you from the Kingdom of Heaven.. It Truly does.. Jesus was Right. these people honour me with their lips.. but their Hearts are far from me.. smh..

 

[Skinski7]

Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is how we are saved by grace through faith.

The grace which saves teaches us and leads the way.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It is by faith that we abide in that grace and walk in the Spirit. In doing so we are purified by our faith for faith purifies the heart.

We can do nothing lest we abide in Jesus. Abiding is a walk and thus involves doing. Faith and doing go hand in hand because faith actually is doing. Faith and obedience are one and the same thing and that is why faith without works is dead.

Faith is not passive. Faith is the active dynamic by which we do the will of God. God leads, we follow. That is all God asks of us. If we repent of our evil and rebellion God is willing to grant us clemency so long as we continue to abide in Him and walk as He walked.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is in this manner that the love of God is perfected in us and whereby we also love our neighbour as ourselves.

Love.

 

[Skinski7]

Jesus gave Himself for us so that...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

All iniquity.

Make us pure.

Make us zealous for righteousness.

What a wonderful thing. It is indeed a wonderful thing that the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The salvation of God is indeed effectual in saving us FROM sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.



Satan has managed to convince MANY people that they are saved IN sin. These people continue to serve sin and continue to argue in favour of ongoing wickedness for they teach that the sin can never stop. How tragic. Their minds have been immunised from an experiential reality of being "saved FROM sin" being possible.

Satan is indeed a master theologian who has fooled millions.

 

[valiant]

Let us try and think outside the box of "popular theology" for a minute. Can you do that?

if by popular theology you means PAUL's theology, no thanks. It was Paul who taught in Romans that God had condemned us to death for our sins, and that Jesus Christ suffered so that we could be 'accounted as righteous'. If you don't accept that then you have no Gospel.

Not a single passage you referenced states anything about Jesus "paying any kind of sin debt owed as a substitute for the one who ows it." That view is imposed on the text and has been done so for the past 400 years when that view was first developed.

it seems to me that you are simply arguing about words. If Jesus bore our sin in His own body on the cross, so that we might die to sin in Him (see ourselves as having died with Christ - Rom 6.1-11) how is that not substitution? And He died the death to which we were sentenced. How is that not penal?.

Jesus indeed died on our behalf as a sin offering. Jesus indeed purchased us. Sinners are indeed redeemed through His blood and many other things. What is not true is that Jesus "paid the sin debt you owe therefore cancelling it out."

well if He did not pay the sin debt that we owe, how is it that it IS cancelled out? God no longer has anything against us. We owed God death because of sin. Christ died in our place. our debt is cancelled out. Thus He paid the sin debt that we owe.

God freely forgives sins. Forgiveness is not payment.

He freely forgives sins because the debt has been paid by Another. Forgiveness is a consequence of 'payment'. The sentence of death rested on us because of our sin. Christ Jesus bore the consequences of that sin. What is that but His 'paying' for our sins?

If you owe a fine due to having committed an offense and then someone pays that fine on your behalf is the fine forgiven? No it isn't. The fine is paid in full.

Are you denying that God forgives US because Christ died for us? It is not the fine that is forgiven but US. The fine is paid in full. That is substitutionary atonement.

Jesus paid for YOU. The purchase was for YOU.

Absolutely, because I was a sinner and He bought me from under the penalty of sin.

Jesus suffered on our behalf as an example for us to follow

This is true but it is a minor part of the truth. The major part is that He suffered on our behalf in order to 'buy' us from under the penalty of sin.

and in doing so He purchased His bride. We had previously sold ourselves into sin through disobedience and had thus forfeited our inheritance. It is through Jesus Christ that the purchased vessel (us) is redeemed (redeem literally means to be set free by payment of a ransom). The ransom price was the blood of Christ which solidified the New Covenant whereby we are able to be partakers in the Ministry of Reconciliation.

But the slave had sinned and was under sentence of death. A righteous God COULD NOT allow him to be bought from under that sentence unless the full requirements of the sentence were met. The ransom price was paid sufficient to satisfy the sentence. We could NOT be set free until the sentence requirements had been met. It was substitutionary. The blood also sealed the new covenant but that is a separate issue.

The sinner is the offending party, not God. It is the sinner whom has to change in order for reconciliation to take place.

But when the sinner changes, God changes as well. He does not change His essential nature, but He changes in His attitude towards the sinner. If His wrath (His determination that the consequences of sin should be met) was not assuaged He could not be reconciled.

The Penal Model reverses this and puts the burden on God to change.

That is complete nonsense. It is God Who demands the penalty. He will not change His attitude towards the sinner until the penalty has been paid. But once the penalty has been paid, AND the offending individual has acknowledged his sin and asked forgiveness, God does change in His attitude towards that person. He does not change essentially Indeed it is because He cannot just overlook sin that the penalty had to be paid. But His attitude towards that forgiven sinner does change.

That is why under the Penal Model it is taught that God "punishes a substitute" and then "pretends the wicked are in fact righteous." The Penal Model has God changing as the basis of reconciliation. Consider that.

God pretends nothing. Tell me. If I manufacture a robot and somehow give if freewill and I know it will go around causing huge damage, who is to blame? I AM. The Creator created man and man went around causing huge damage, something which the Creator knew he would do. It was not, of course, sin, for God cannot sin against Himself. Who finally has to accept the responsibility? God has. Thus He took on Himself the consequences of our sin. Justice was satisfied.

He then puts to our account the righteousness of the One Who suffered. He has taken OUR blame because He made us. As a consequence we are blame free, we are righteous.

The Bible teaches that it is the sinner who has to change. A sinner forsakes that which caused emnity between them and God, namely sin. The sinner approaches God in repentance and faith by the blood of Jesus seeking a cleansing of their past history of rebellion, ie. a forgiveness of sins and a purging of the associated guilt. If that does not take place there can be no reconciliation.

Very true. But in order for a righteous God to accept the sinner, the sentence of death on the sinner has to be paid for. God cannot be reconciled to the sinner until the death requirement of the sentence has been satisfied. SOMEONE MUST DIE. And it must be a related party. In the even the Creator of the miscreant stepped down from His judgment throne and said, 'I will offer My infinite life in the place of each sinner.'

This understanding has been lost due to the teaching of all the Substitution Models, ie. Satisfaction/Moral Government/Penal Substitution.

But did you ever have any real understanding? It is GOD WHO gave us the model.

I challenge you to look at the history of all those models and you will discover that none go back further than the 11th Century.

I have looked at all the models. And the only one which satisfies all points is the one that INCLUDES penal substitution. Of course it is a far greater matter than just that. Penal substitution would have left us forgiven but powerless. But it has to be the starting point of God's dealings with us.

The Bible is very clear on this subject.

I agree as I have shown you.

The problem is people have listened to theologians and have uncritically believed what they have been told.

I listen to everyone. But I finally make my own decision. I am not uncritical. But I see quite clearly that a just and righteous God cannot deal with man in mercy until the righteous requirements of His righteous sentence have been satisfied in full. An that requires the death of a substitute and representative.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ.

yep.

And how can God make us who were dead in sin to be alive in Christ, and this life be said to be eternal?

By taking our sin on his flesh (he who knew know sin was MADE SIN FOR US) and paying the price we owe.

Without this, there is no life. only death.

Good luck trying to pay the penalty of sin yourself. the penalty of sin is DEATH, the GIFT of God is life.

 

[SarahM777]

This can quickly become a circular argument.

You see Noah, in faith, building the ark in obedience to God.

I see the Holy Spirit placing in Noah the will and the ability to build the ark.

Therein lies the problem. One side without the other IS INCOMPLETE. BOTH ARE TRUE. Faith and works are BOTH part of the picture. If one only has faith or works by themselves without the other that person CAN NOT BE saved. A faith only without works is DEAD. But works without faith are works for self righteousness and they can never remove sin. Works can only do one thing and one thing only and that is a it is TEST for us to see if one is in the faith or remaining in the faith.

Can you answer the question Do you love Jesus IF you do not do what He commands? Is the proof that we believe in our words alone or is the proof of the truth of that faith in our words and DEEDS? Or is talk cheap? Is it all talk and no walk?

 

[psychomom]

This can quickly become a circular argument.

You see Noah, in faith, building the ark in obedience to God.

I see the Holy Spirit placing in Noah the will and the ability to build the ark.

Therein lies the problem. One side without the other IS INCOMPLETE. BOTH ARE TRUE. Faith and works are BOTH part of the picture. If one only has faith or works by themselves without the other that person CAN NOT BE saved. A faith only without works is DEAD. But works without faith are works for self righteousness and they can never remove sin. Works can only do one thing and one thing only and that is a it is TEST for us to see if one is in the faith or remaining in the faith.

Can you answer the question Do you love Jesus IF you do not do what He commands? Is the proof that we believe in our words alone or is the proof of the truth of that faith in our words and DEEDS? Or is talk cheap? Is it all talk and no walk?

i just jumped in (classic ellie ), but aren't you both saying the same thing, and both right?

the faith God gives causes doing.
and there is no good doing without the faith God gives.

when God rescues us, He changes our 'wanter'.
we begin to love the things He loves, and hate the things He hates.
we love Him and others because He first loved us. (amazing!)

so we do as He bids, but it's not even us doing the doing.
'k....confusing psychomom out. ♥

 

[SarahM777]

i just jumped in (classic ellie ), but aren't you both saying the same thing, and both right?

the faith God gives causes doing.
and there is no good doing without the faith God gives.

when God rescues us, He changes our 'wanter'.
we begin to love the things He loves, and hate the things He hates.
we love Him and others because He first loved us. (amazing!)

so we do as He bids, but it's not even us doing the doing.
'k....confusing psychomom out. ♥

You're right,and I am just as guilty of that. We get so focused on trying to make our points and we don't stop long enough to think through what the other person is really saying. And we don't stop long to think if the other person DOES have a valid point ALSO.

And to those that I have done so I do apologize for it,I was wrong to do so.