Genocide attributed to God in old testament.

[ivanc0]

Could some one please coment on:

Numbers
31 The Lord said to Moses, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. [SUP]11 [/SUP]They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, [SUP]12 [/SUP]and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]“They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, [SUP]18 [/SUP]but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead [SUP]23 [/SUP]and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. [SUP]24 [/SUP]On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”
[h=3]Dividing the Spoils[/h][SUP]25 [/SUP]The Lord said to Moses, [SUP]26 [/SUP]“You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. [SUP]28 [/SUP]From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. [SUP]30 [/SUP]From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, [SUP]33 [/SUP]72,000 cattle, [SUP]34 [/SUP]61,000 donkeys [SUP]35 [/SUP]and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, [SUP]37 [/SUP]of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;
[SUP]38 [/SUP]36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;
[SUP]39 [/SUP]30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;
[SUP]40 [/SUP]16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— [SUP]43 [/SUP]the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, [SUP]44 [/SUP]36,000 cattle, [SUP]45 [/SUP]30,500 donkeys [SUP]46 [/SUP]and 16,000 people. [SUP]47 [/SUP]From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the Lord commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses [SUP]49 [/SUP]and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. [SUP]50 [/SUP]So we have brought as an offering to the Lord the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.”
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. [SUP]52 [/SUP]All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the Lord weighed 16,750 shekels.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]53 [/SUP]Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord.




Not only they commited Genocide, but they got Rich as well.

 

[ivanc0]

and what about:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32

and the virgen women remained virgen or the Israelites took some benefit ?

and what about the virgen men? even if is few days old?

 

[kaylagrl]

Could some one please coment on:

Numbers
31 The Lord said to Moses, [SUP]2 [/SUP]“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. [SUP]11 [/SUP]They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, [SUP]12 [/SUP]and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]“They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, [SUP]18 [/SUP]but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead [SUP]23 [/SUP]and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. [SUP]24 [/SUP]On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”
Dividing the Spoils

[SUP]25 [/SUP]The Lord said to Moses, [SUP]26 [/SUP]“You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. [SUP]28 [/SUP]From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. [SUP]30 [/SUP]From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, [SUP]33 [/SUP]72,000 cattle, [SUP]34 [/SUP]61,000 donkeys [SUP]35 [/SUP]and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, [SUP]37 [/SUP]of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;
[SUP]38 [/SUP]36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;
[SUP]39 [/SUP]30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;
[SUP]40 [/SUP]16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— [SUP]43 [/SUP]the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, [SUP]44 [/SUP]36,000 cattle, [SUP]45 [/SUP]30,500 donkeys [SUP]46 [/SUP]and 16,000 people. [SUP]47 [/SUP]From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the Lord commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses [SUP]49 [/SUP]and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. [SUP]50 [/SUP]So we have brought as an offering to the Lord the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.”
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. [SUP]52 [/SUP]All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the Lord weighed 16,750 shekels.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]53 [/SUP]Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord.




Not only they commited Genocide, but they got Rich as well.

The Midianites seduced Israel into idolatry, going after false gods. They tried to put Israel under a curse...

So Balak son of Zippor, who was king of Moab at that time, 5 sent messengers to summon Balaam son of Beor, who was at Pethor, near the Euphrates River,in his native land. Balak said:“A people has come out of Egypt; they cover the face of the land and have settled next to me. 6 Now come and put a curse on these people, because they are too powerful for me. Perhaps then I will be able to defeat them and drive them out of the land. For I know that whoever you bless is blessed, and whoever you curse is cursed.”

Then the women seduced the Israelites...


While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods.3 So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the Lord’s anger burned against them.
4 The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord’s fierce angermay turn away from Israel.”
5 So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.”

A plague hit the Israelites because of their sin...

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people.

That is why the women were also punished.

 

[kedge]

Atheists accuse God of crimes against humanity shocker, who would of thunk it eh?

 

[PeterJens]

There is a serious point here. The question you have to ask is can God authorise a group to wipe out another whole group?
The simple answer is yes, and communities were doing it to each other throughout history. It was only in modern warfare where the rules became have one army fight another, and the conclusion will resolve who rules.

The second issue is, can a community as a whole be guilty of death because of their behaviour. Again the answer is yes.
A community can take cannabilism as their ethic, or betrayal, or be completely eaten up with violence and sexual abuse, child and human sacrifice. When a community becomes so degenerate your only means of dealing with it is open warfare, either kill or be killed, there are little other options.

Today we now have other options, prisons, wealth, re-education, civil government etc. We are aware of a common culture and understanding across all social groups of respect and family co-hesion etc. It would be inconceivable we would come across a community so disfunctional that death was the only option, but there are such groups, who commit suicide rather than submit etc.

Israel where in a particular point in history, with enemies who were happy to try and destroy them, who represented groups who God had judged, and through a leadership of Moses and Joshua displayed direct one to one communication. It was not like this communication could be faked, or was not without authority. Rebel openly against God and simply the ground opened up below you, or you were burnt alive.

Go back to today. There is no direction like this or a leadership with such authority, or a group in such rebellion, or into such evil and destruction. So such action could not be justified.

Does this stop humans claiming the right to act against people, and performing such acts out of hatred and fear? No.
The interesting question is now, if such a group who murder and destroy others ruled, what would you consider justice against them? Such issues have arisen in South Africa, Rwanda, Bosnia, Turkey, Iraq, ISIS.
Many muslim groups are calling for annihilation of other muslim groups, which just perpetuates the cycle of violence and hatred. So unfortunately the issue will not go away in our life times.

 

[valiant]

The difference between our doing it on our own initiative and God actually commanding it is that God has the RIGHT to do it as the Judge of all the world.

The men had to die because they would simply in the future have joined other similar tribesmen and have fostered vengeance against Israel. The women had to die because they would have led Israel astray after idols. The young boys had to die because they would have grown up demanding vengeance on Israel. They would have seen it as their duty. The young girls would become wives of Israelite men and produce sons who were faithful to Israel. Thus it was not total genocide.

God was protecting Israel at a very precarious time in their existence.

 

[Pumicestone]

..... The men had to die because they would simply in the future have joined other similar tribesmen and have fostered vengeance against Israel. (surprise, surprise)
The women had to die because they would have led Israel astray after idols. (Or been converted to Judaism?)
The young boys had to die because they would have grown up demanding vengeance on Israel. (surprise, surprise)

On this basis, I guess you want to kill 1 billion+ Muslims ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Any battles/wars in which the Israelites were involved, were against unbelievers/idolaters .

. . . . all to protect the blood line from which would come the Messiah . . . .

 

[valiant]

On this basis, I guess you want to kill 1 billion+ Muslims ?

I was writing for people who use their intelligence. As far as I am aware God has not through a generally recognised inspired prophet commanded that all Muslims should be killed. Maybe I have missed something?

In this case it was not me who made the decision. It was GOD. I can only ask why God did it, and why He made the provisions that He did.

But these Midianites in their multiple tribes were people who had already called on a famous false prophet to denounce Israel and paid over a considerable amount of gold for the purpose, and they were hovering on Israel's border awaiting their chance. God saw the huge threat that they were.. Their evil intentions were clear. And they would be a continual threat on Israel's borders while the fighting men were away leaving their families mainly defenceless. Their destruction was a reasonable act of self defence. They had proved themselves the belligerents.

God did not require that ALL Midianites be so dealt with, only those in Moab.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Heres another in Amalek and the reason as is shown here

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses,

Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Exodus 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

It shows the reason the LORD would have war against Amalek here

Duet 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;

Duet 25:18 How he met theeby the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.

So Amalek showed no mercy even in smiting the feeble of them (not fearing God in that very doing).

Duet 25:19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

1Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember thatwhich Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Therefore no mercy is being shown back Amalek

2Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

He was even angry at Saul when His wrath wasnt fully executed here...

1Sam 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. (read back here).

God being willing to show his wrath

Whereas Jeus said, ye have heard hate your enemies (even as Amalek was considered an enemiy)

But now I say unto love your enemies.

There they were to execute his wrath, whereas we execute His mercy (avenging not ourselves but leaving room for wrath) for its His to avenge.

But it also says judgment without mercy will be shown to those who have shown no mercy, And that seemed to be the start of the whole thing with Amalek

(Because Amalek showed no mercy to the feeble in Duet 25:17-18).

It does speak of God being willing to show His wrath (which is also what King Saul did not do ) in the very execution of it (to the fullest) is that which Samuel (the Prophet) finishes in His place ...

Who might give us further insight as to why in His words....

1Sam 15:3 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Even as it says...

Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

And again...

Duet 19:21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Then Jesus says

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said,
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

His serverity and his goodness are shown even here, even as His wrath and his mercy are shown.

In Amalek showing no mercy seemed to receive Gods judgment (even wrath) without mercy.

All judgment being given to the Son, being our King and Captain, reminds them of what ye "have heard" (in the past) but now what He says to us. Even as Moses said ye shall hear ye him (on things)

There is still wrath, we are just not appointed to it in Jesus Christ

 

[Pumicestone]

..... God did not require that ALL Midianites be so dealt with, only those in Moab.

Only a Yank could defend such genocide of men, women and children - old folk, civilians, non-combatants.
I know, "collateral damage".
And it still goes on.
Barbarians.

 

[Utah]

On this basis, I guess you want to kill 1 billion+ Muslims ?

I don't want to kill anyone, I just want to eradicate islam.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Only a Yank could defend such genocide of men, women and children - old folk, civilians, non-combatants.
I know, "collateral damage".
And it still goes on.
Barbarians.

God demanded all the Amalekites to be dealt with though, and Saul warned the Kenites depart from among the same to be spared because they shewed kindness to the children of Israel.

And Saul aid unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites.

God is not a Yank (or Amercian) in ordering Saul to do the following

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

God had them wiped out

 

[JesusIsAll]

Atheists accuse God of crimes against humanity shocker, who would of thunk it eh?

Really. It's fundamental that Holy God owes no rebellious, sinful man anything, any of us but what cosmic criminals deserve, and the horse we rode in on, this why they call it grace. Leave it up to an atheist to be oblivious to the simplest tenants of the faith. (But which somehow never stops them from pontificating on the faith...)

 

[MarcR]

I think that the answer to the OP is more basic than any I have read on this thread.

If, as I do, one believes in a creator God, then He, by virtue of creation, has the right of any creator over His creation.
This includes the right to destroy by any means at his disposal.

Unless or until I am able to create a better universe [not at all likely]; I lack the authority to question His acts or means.

 

[kaylagrl]

On this basis, I guess you want to kill 1 billion+ Muslims ?

He didn't say he wanted to kill anyone.He was talking about Gods justice.He didnt say anything about killing a person.

 

[kaylagrl]

Only a Yank could defend such genocide of men, women and children - old folk, civilians, non-combatants.
I know, "collateral damage".
And it still goes on.
Barbarians.

You have a problem with the Bible,take it up with the Creator.Valiant isn't advocating anything.He's explaining the Bible verses. God creates life,He can take life.He is completely just.But I see you dont believe any of that so I just wasted my breathe Im sure.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, I have a few things to say.....

1. God did not commit genocide
2. if you will call this set of scriptures genocide what would you label the flood which wiped out the entire human race (except for 8 adults) and the entire animal, plant, insect, bird kingdom except for what was on the ark?
3. God was removing idolaters and threats to his chosen people
4. The whole book of Joshua is about conquest and war and even Samuel had to hew Agag to pieces because Saul did not do what was commanded.....
5. Even within this rightful act as directed by God we find mercy...any children killed who had not yet reached the point of knowing their guilt before God would be found safe under the blood.....I do believe in the age of accountability and had they been allowed to grow up as idolaters they would have perished in their sins and ended up in hell.

God will have mercy upon whom he chooses and has 100% complete authority to take and or command to take life........!

 

[JimmieD]

On this basis, I guess you want to kill 1 billion+ Muslims ?

Isn't this a non-sequitur?

Only a Yank could defend such genocide of men,

Not to state the obvious here, but the person you're responding to has a British flag on top of their name.

Your apology is accepted.

'Merica.

 

[AngelFrog]

Well yeah. When only 9 people are left alive as God drowns the entire population of the world that qualifies as genocide.