Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Jesus is good and did not condone anyone to sin. Christ existed in the Old Testament, too. He made many pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament. However, your view of God in the Old Testament is exactly as those of atheists, though. You are not even giving God the benefit of the doubt when looking at certain verses (Searching for an alternate explanation in trying to defend God). You are quick to assume the wrong thing. God would not want you to do that. Look deeper and ask God to help you to understand His Word. I say this in love and in truth. If you will only ask, He will reveal the truth to you. But if you do not believe all of God's Word is true, then you cannot receive the truth. You first, have to take the step of faith that God's Word is true.
Genocide attributed to God in old testament.
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The people that God had the Israelites destroy were not like your next door neighbor who were good law abiding citizens. These were very sinful people who were involved in the evil satanic worship of other gods and in many cases, they treated others very horribly. These enemies of Israel were not looking to make peace with Israel, they were seeking to hurt and destroy them.
Sorry I have not been clear, I was referring to the Israelites being punished for their wrongs.
About the those enemies of Israel trying to destroy them,? have you read what you have written? who is the offender and who the defender , so you go to kill the people in another country and then complain they want to destroy me?
Are you serious????????
where is your sense of reality?
About the those enemies of Israel trying to destroy them,? have you read what you have written? who is the offender and who the defender , so you go to kill the people in another country and then complain they want to destroy me?
Are you serious????????
where is your sense of reality?
You have to be condescendent with them for their sense of nationalism, is like I will not go to another country and criticize why they are proud about regardless they are right or wrong it is their nation it is their pride. that is a completely different matter. Americans are proud they have taken the land from the Mexicans, rigth or wrong is not to me to criticize, the same with the early Christians, also you have to note that in the old days, criticize will mean dead penalty, I will be dead 100 times I have said what I said in other times, also in our days access to information is possible and you able to really search for any thing in the bible with the help of electronics and details what were difficult to uncover before are much easy done this days.
Thanks for your words, and your sane intention. I have prayed and meditated this things for years, and chosen some paragraphs which have no alternative explanation.
1.- Rape of a war prisoner.
2.- The selling of a Daughter as a slave.
3.- Ethnic cleansing in name of God.
I also wish this bits were not in the bible but they are there, and is completely out of character to me. also I suppose will be out of character to any normal person.
Any way Thanks for your words. God Bless you.
1.- Rape of a war prisoner.
2.- The selling of a Daughter as a slave.
3.- Ethnic cleansing in name of God.
I also wish this bits were not in the bible but they are there, and is completely out of character to me. also I suppose will be out of character to any normal person.
Any way Thanks for your words. God Bless you.
K
Quote "even did not judged an adulterous woman caught in the very act of adultery" But He did judge her.He knew she was a sinner,she knew He knew she was a sinner,everybody knew she was a sinner. What He didnt do was condemn her.We assume she went her way and sinned no more.If she did she would have been condemned like every other sinner.
Quote " a God who did not care about justice " Isaiah 30- For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.
Ps 37 -For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.
Is 61-For I the Lord love justice...
Quote " I said the old testament can not be accepted literally... Really? The Ot foretold Christs birth, the cross and the Savior of the world,the Messiah has come. Do we take that literally? How can you take one verse literally and not another? How do you know what is literal and what isn't?
Quote "But I also have some neurones in my brain, and I am able to see the signature of legends " So you do not believe the Bible is the infallible word of God,like it claims to be.
[h=3][/h]
G
Ivan,
I understand.
Do you believe the OT and NT are inspired by God?
If you don't, then further discussion is futile. Please let me know what you believe. Please.
I believe NT is inspired.
I believe and affirm: God is the one who brought about the Israelite conquest of Canaan as recorded in the OT.
Why do I believe that statement? A number of reasons.
Here's one: The NT teaches God is the one who gave Israel the land of Canaan.
Let's focus on that. Please.
Okay. NT says God directed and commanded Israel to go in and destroy the Canaanites.
Let's just stop and note that. Please.
Okay. How does the NT affirm God being the leader of the conquest?
It relies on the OT. That is, it AGREES with the OT account of conquest. The NT agrees, God was the one who commanded Israel to go and conquer. God was the power behind Israel's success. He wanted all the Canaanites destroyed: men, women, and children. That was God's command to Israel.
Okay. Let's just stop. Just consider that. Let's say it is true. Let's not argue about the human side of it for now. Let's just accept it for now. Please. Ivan, pause here. Try to see what I am saying. Okay?
Now then. God commanded, led, and empowered Israel in conquering Canaan. That is affirmed by Old and New Testaments.
Therefore, if we believe that to be true, but then we affirm this: "Israel went into Canaan and killed men, women, and children. They committed those killings without God's approval. And the only reason the OT says God approved it all has to do with Israel. They wrote their history in the OT. And so they conjured up a way to validate their killing. They pointed the finger to God. He told us to kill."
Ivan: This will be last attempt to get things clear. Please be patient. Let's pause. Maybe go back and reread what I wrote before proceeding.
Okay. If we say we believe NT affirms God behind the conquest, but then we also say Israel lied in their record of the conquest then we create a contradiction.
If you believe NT, you must also believe OT as it is recorded. NT agrees with the OT.
I will post another post that addresses the human side of all this.
I understand.
Do you believe the OT and NT are inspired by God?
If you don't, then further discussion is futile. Please let me know what you believe. Please.
I believe NT is inspired.
I believe and affirm: God is the one who brought about the Israelite conquest of Canaan as recorded in the OT.
Why do I believe that statement? A number of reasons.
Here's one: The NT teaches God is the one who gave Israel the land of Canaan.
Let's focus on that. Please.
Okay. NT says God directed and commanded Israel to go in and destroy the Canaanites.
Let's just stop and note that. Please.
Okay. How does the NT affirm God being the leader of the conquest?
It relies on the OT. That is, it AGREES with the OT account of conquest. The NT agrees, God was the one who commanded Israel to go and conquer. God was the power behind Israel's success. He wanted all the Canaanites destroyed: men, women, and children. That was God's command to Israel.
Okay. Let's just stop. Just consider that. Let's say it is true. Let's not argue about the human side of it for now. Let's just accept it for now. Please. Ivan, pause here. Try to see what I am saying. Okay?
Now then. God commanded, led, and empowered Israel in conquering Canaan. That is affirmed by Old and New Testaments.
Therefore, if we believe that to be true, but then we affirm this: "Israel went into Canaan and killed men, women, and children. They committed those killings without God's approval. And the only reason the OT says God approved it all has to do with Israel. They wrote their history in the OT. And so they conjured up a way to validate their killing. They pointed the finger to God. He told us to kill."
Ivan: This will be last attempt to get things clear. Please be patient. Let's pause. Maybe go back and reread what I wrote before proceeding.
Okay. If we say we believe NT affirms God behind the conquest, but then we also say Israel lied in their record of the conquest then we create a contradiction.
If you believe NT, you must also believe OT as it is recorded. NT agrees with the OT.
I will post another post that addresses the human side of all this.
G
Ivan,
I am not advocating hate or disdain or hate toward anyone.
My main concern is not geographical or national borders. My concern is truth. As you know, there is no perfect society, no perfect culture, no perfect government. That said, I am thankful that I was born America. But this is not about my country or your country or Arabs. It is about truth.
Did God command Israel to kill men, women, and children in Canaan?
Yes.
God commanded His people to kill infants! What kind of God is that?
As a believer in the inspiration of OT and NT, I accept it.
But remember, the OT contains 37 books. Those books shed light on why God gave such a command.
Those books also reveal God. Contrary to popular belief, the OT reveals a loving God.
Just some thoughts to remember, consider:
1. God is God. He sovereign.
2. God's command to kill Canaanites does not at all suggest God rejoices in the death of the wicked.
3. Israel had to do the killing. It is presumptuous to say Israel was more than willing to go in and slaughter. (Remember, God commanded Israel to wipe out the nations in Canaan. Israel failed. They did not do what they were told. They left many Canaanite people alive. So it was not as if Israel was having a good old time and just couldn't wait to kill, kill, and kill! People only assume such things.)
4. The Canaanites were a very corrupt people. Offered children to gods. Committed abominations; idolatry, sodomy, torture, slavery, etc. The sin of the Canaanites was full. It was as in the days of Noah.
5. Children were killed. Yes. But think about that. Those children died. Where do you suppose their blessed little souls went? Yes. To God.
6. And the conquest is for the Bible student but a step toward a greater injustice. An injustice that God permitted, allowed. One He worked along side of, not banishing it nor altering it in the least bit. And Ivan, even the slaughter of the infants at the time of young Jesus wasn't enough to change God's mind. He marched right along. He was bringing the Lamb to the slaughter.
He looked all around. His Lamb spotless. Innocent. He delivered His Son up to sinners. That's God's answer to all our complaints and charges against Him.
God is love. He is just. He is Almighty, eternal. He knows, sees all. Who are we to charge God with genocide? I dare not. It is most foolish. It is arrogant. It is outlandish.
So let's stop the charges and the twisting of scripture just so we can appease OUR conclusions, OUR emotions, OUR logic.
I am not advocating hate or disdain or hate toward anyone.
My main concern is not geographical or national borders. My concern is truth. As you know, there is no perfect society, no perfect culture, no perfect government. That said, I am thankful that I was born America. But this is not about my country or your country or Arabs. It is about truth.
Did God command Israel to kill men, women, and children in Canaan?
Yes.
God commanded His people to kill infants! What kind of God is that?
As a believer in the inspiration of OT and NT, I accept it.
But remember, the OT contains 37 books. Those books shed light on why God gave such a command.
Those books also reveal God. Contrary to popular belief, the OT reveals a loving God.
Just some thoughts to remember, consider:
1. God is God. He sovereign.
2. God's command to kill Canaanites does not at all suggest God rejoices in the death of the wicked.
3. Israel had to do the killing. It is presumptuous to say Israel was more than willing to go in and slaughter. (Remember, God commanded Israel to wipe out the nations in Canaan. Israel failed. They did not do what they were told. They left many Canaanite people alive. So it was not as if Israel was having a good old time and just couldn't wait to kill, kill, and kill! People only assume such things.)
4. The Canaanites were a very corrupt people. Offered children to gods. Committed abominations; idolatry, sodomy, torture, slavery, etc. The sin of the Canaanites was full. It was as in the days of Noah.
5. Children were killed. Yes. But think about that. Those children died. Where do you suppose their blessed little souls went? Yes. To God.
6. And the conquest is for the Bible student but a step toward a greater injustice. An injustice that God permitted, allowed. One He worked along side of, not banishing it nor altering it in the least bit. And Ivan, even the slaughter of the infants at the time of young Jesus wasn't enough to change God's mind. He marched right along. He was bringing the Lamb to the slaughter.
He looked all around. His Lamb spotless. Innocent. He delivered His Son up to sinners. That's God's answer to all our complaints and charges against Him.
God is love. He is just. He is Almighty, eternal. He knows, sees all. Who are we to charge God with genocide? I dare not. It is most foolish. It is arrogant. It is outlandish.
So let's stop the charges and the twisting of scripture just so we can appease OUR conclusions, OUR emotions, OUR logic.
You have put me in a huge problem, now I have to accept the old testament as literal or reject the New testament.
Your arguments are quite compelling, except for one little detail, there is about 2000 years between the events we discussing in the old testament and the new testament, in 2000 years there is a feeling of desensitization, is like How the British feel about loosing America as a colony, today nothing. before probably was a big deal.
Time is also a factor.
I agree with your in the the people of the New testament used the old testament as reference, and probably take the writing literally, but Jesus did caused a moral revolution in that society, they tried to make Jesus condone the stoning of a woman, the woman was saved by Jesus intervention, He decided against the law with his famous phrase "The one who has not sin throw the first stone".
In the old testament, we see the opposite to this, the Israelite sinners kill the allegedly more sinner Canaanites, all on the order of God, that in all his love will stop the life of this Canaanite people no mater of age, and the biggest sin of the Israelites was not obeying God and not have killed all of them, and let some mercy/lust/convenience in their harts and let some of them to live. (lust: to use the woman, convenience: to get slaves).
And What Jesus said to the Jews of his day: "If this miracles have been done in Sodom .... they will have repented"
The interesting thing about acts of "God" in the old testament is that God always fail.
1.- repented of Creating men (Bad design, bad education, bad guide?)
2.- Destroyed all humanity. (then humanity became as corrupt as before)
3.- Then tired of humanity decides to try with a small group (Israel) the also fail to obey
(They are as bad as anyone, kill, sell daughters as slaves, rape women pseudo legally, visit prostitutes, kill the others but keep the prostitutes alive, they made an agreement, sodomise other Israelites (story of levite that gives woman to be raped to save is bum), make human sacrifices (history of father burning his daughter to dead as a sacrifice of war, base on a promise made under the influence of the "spirit") If you think I am making this up I am happy to send the exact biblical references, but for a biblical person like you, you should be familiar with this.
I have compelling reasons to think the old testament cannot be taken literally, I still accept it like the word of God in the sense of the moral laws and prophecies, and cannot be taken literally unless you make God as human as anyone of us.
Thanks
Those numbers aren't exactly accurate. The peace loving are the minority.
And the crusades demonstrated a church leadership thought to go forth and kill Muslims long ago. While Muslim wars demonstrated they felt the same about the infidels.
Islam translates to submission. There is no peace in being forced to submit. Be it to a demonic moon god or the man who argues he is that creatures earthly emissary.
And Islam has never in its history been a religion of peace.
[video=youtube;g7TAAw3oQvg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85027636&v=g7TAAw3oQvg&x-yt-ts=1422503916[/video]
And the crusades demonstrated a church leadership thought to go forth and kill Muslims long ago. While Muslim wars demonstrated they felt the same about the infidels.
Islam translates to submission. There is no peace in being forced to submit. Be it to a demonic moon god or the man who argues he is that creatures earthly emissary.
And Islam has never in its history been a religion of peace.
[video=youtube;g7TAAw3oQvg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85027636&v=g7TAAw3oQvg&x-yt-ts=1422503916[/video]
I do not believe God would proclaim " Thou Shall not kill. " and then order his people to exterminate complete groups of people. God does not want us killing one another, God wants us to love one another, even our enemies.
Until we can realize that mankind has perverted the bible, we will continue in error, and reveal God as a monster, you can not justify parts of the old testament in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In attempting to do so we continue to justify killing and enslavement and persecution, such things are not of God.
just a thought.
Until we can realize that mankind has perverted the bible, we will continue in error, and reveal God as a monster, you can not justify parts of the old testament in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ. In attempting to do so we continue to justify killing and enslavement and persecution, such things are not of God.
just a thought.
Your video Clip is far from convincing. The guy has a pretty weird take on what constitutes a "radical".
And then makes a quantum leap that everybody he calls a 'radical' is a terrorist or potential terrorist.
IF you concur with his logic, one can only assume that you advocate that all Muslims be slaughtered like Midianites, Amalekites etc etc etc..
Well, the precedent is set.
Yep, you god sure is Love
And then makes a quantum leap that everybody he calls a 'radical' is a terrorist or potential terrorist.
IF you concur with his logic, one can only assume that you advocate that all Muslims be slaughtered like Midianites, Amalekites etc etc etc..
Well, the precedent is set.
Yep, you god sure is Love
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All of them? How do you know this is what would have happened?
And somehow the women were punished, not for something they actually did, but something Israel would do in the future? Not only would I question how you know what the women would have done in the future, but how can it be justice to be punished for crimes you haven't actually committed? Not only that, but wouldn't Israel be responsible for it's own sin? Why are these women being punished for actions committed by Israel [in the future]? And why think that Israel would have followed a bunch of widows into idolatry?
All of them? Based on what? Even the youngest who wouldn't be able to remember the conflict when they grew up?
So they would be forced into "marriage" thus we can relax a little with the comfort that it wasn't total genocide. At least those who weren't killed were forced into marriage to produce Israelite sons. Though we also have to ask, would those sons be true Israelites or would they be 50% Israelite?
I think you have little support for your reasoning.
And somehow the women were punished, not for something they actually did, but something Israel would do in the future? Not only would I question how you know what the women would have done in the future, but how can it be justice to be punished for crimes you haven't actually committed? Not only that, but wouldn't Israel be responsible for it's own sin? Why are these women being punished for actions committed by Israel [in the future]? And why think that Israel would have followed a bunch of widows into idolatry?
All of them? Based on what? Even the youngest who wouldn't be able to remember the conflict when they grew up?
So they would be forced into "marriage" thus we can relax a little with the comfort that it wasn't total genocide. At least those who weren't killed were forced into marriage to produce Israelite sons. Though we also have to ask, would those sons be true Israelites or would they be 50% Israelite?
I think you have little support for your reasoning.