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You do realize that your arguments and justifications for rejecting eternal security are ignorant right....you have to recieve the completed work of Christ by faith...Your first line above is ignorant...and does not justify your rejection of eternal security and jumps way to the left in an attempt to disprove biblical doctrine....!
More fluff here for sure....your line 2 is moot and has no bearing on eternal security....The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah and were attempting to justify their lives by tradition and religious adherance to the law which placed them in a LOST STATE......had they recieved Jesus they would have been born again and eternally saved, secure and justfied in Christ! Your reasoning and logic never ceases to amaze me.....not in a good way either.....!
And Jesus you are not......so your USE of real world examples is a farce at best!
And Jesus you are not......so your USE of real world examples is a farce at best!
That's good actually. But it still does not change the truth about how you observe the world around you and you know it. If you happen across the news and or if you see somebody do bad things in real life, you know they are bad because of what they have done. You don't say to yourself..... "Hmmm... I wonder if that axe murderer is a Christian?"
Of course, such extreme sins are denied for a believer in being a true Christian. However, the OSAS proponent will say they cannot stop sinning and they will have some type of sin in their life. Which means that other sins besides murder and rape are okay and will not send a believer to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. In other words, the OSAS proponent is not consistent in what they believe and they are condoning a sin and still be saved doctrine.
Also, you did not answer my question. Does a sin and still be saved doctrine sound like a doctrine that would come from a Holy God who does not condone or justify sin?
Also, you did not answer my question. Does a sin and still be saved doctrine sound like a doctrine that would come from a Holy God who does not condone or justify sin?
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This too reeks of ignorance and is an excuse to justify a false doctrine that you teach.....John was way more of a Christian then you will ever be and stated clearly that if we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us and we are decieved...so I have two questions for you....maybe three..
1. Are you without sin
2. Are you decieved
1. Are you without sin
2. Are you decieved
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I think part of the difficulty may be a misunderstanding of justification!
As I posted on another thread: If you want to understand justification look at your word processor!
Left justification aligns text with the left margin. Right justification aligns text with the right margin.
Full justification aligns text around an imaginary center crease. God's justification aligns our will with His will
He also quantifies sin and his sins are not that grieveous.......there are a few of them on this site who quantify sin into nice little neat boxes and they do not sin as grieveous as others do or thy just mess up every now and then all the while making justification into a work that one does instead of the completed act in Christ when it comes to our standing before God....!
dcon,
We all realize that Jason is very sincere, not very teachable, and often wrong.
pointing it out to each other may relieve frustration; but accomplishes little else.
We need to point out his errors, to keep others from stumbling into them; but to be surprised at his stubornness is unreasonable.
We all realize that Jason is very sincere, not very teachable, and often wrong.
pointing it out to each other may relieve frustration; but accomplishes little else.
We need to point out his errors, to keep others from stumbling into them; but to be surprised at his stubornness is unreasonable.
I can say the same for many here, as well. For if the error is in telling others that they must obey the teachings of Jesus Christ and thinking it is wrong that believers can get away with a sin and still be saved doctrine.... then by all means.... charge me as guilty. However, everything I have said has already been confirmed with Scripture and by way of using real world examples (of which you can never do with a false doctrine or belief like OSAS). For do you honestly believe God will reward His people with Heaven for doing evil against Him? I say thee nay. God is Holy, righteous, and just. He will not allow anyone to get away with sin or evil.
P
Doing an internet search is far from stalking.
If you do something on the internet it is public information, and to act outraged because you did something embarrassing is silly. You did it, not Dcon.
I have said this before, and as Marc noted, you don't listen to good advice. Altho I too disagree with Dcon and others here about sin, one should always judge themselves first, as scripture points out, so that we have no need of being judged by others. If you are a believer then other believers have, not only the right, but a duty to judge you.
You like seeing your name on the screen. You have the appearance of being prideful, and the bible has a few things to say about pride. I would suggest,and do so without bitterness or anger, that you look in the mirror. Everyone, including me, have things we need to improve on. Physically and spiritually. To not believe that is to display arrogance and pride. Think about it Jason.
If you do something on the internet it is public information, and to act outraged because you did something embarrassing is silly. You did it, not Dcon.
I have said this before, and as Marc noted, you don't listen to good advice. Altho I too disagree with Dcon and others here about sin, one should always judge themselves first, as scripture points out, so that we have no need of being judged by others. If you are a believer then other believers have, not only the right, but a duty to judge you.
You like seeing your name on the screen. You have the appearance of being prideful, and the bible has a few things to say about pride. I would suggest,and do so without bitterness or anger, that you look in the mirror. Everyone, including me, have things we need to improve on. Physically and spiritually. To not believe that is to display arrogance and pride. Think about it Jason.
How many of us have wanted to sample the world and what it has to offer? Only to find that the sample leaves us broken and bleeding.......Then and only then when we are at the bottom do we consider that what was laid out for us as safe and secure truly is and finally we see it and start reaching for Jesus who never wanted us to stray in the first place. God loved us so much that even when we come limping home He sees us from afar and comes Running to meet us throws His arms of Love around us and says My Child You are Home! I Love You!
Thank You Father for Loving us so much You have done everything to ensure our safe return. It cost Jesus His life... Oh please help me give my life to You and use me how you see fit even unto death if needed.....Love you Dad......Blond.
Thank You Father for Loving us so much You have done everything to ensure our safe return. It cost Jesus His life... Oh please help me give my life to You and use me how you see fit even unto death if needed.....Love you Dad......Blond.
Question for you Does scripture ever show that despite what both David and Peter did,does scripture ever show they LOST their faith? Or was it that the faith that remained caused them to turn around and repent? See Jesus tells Peter something BEFORE he denies Jesus 3 times.
Luke 22
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”[SUP] 33 [/SUP]But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”
Did Peter ever go INTO UNBELIEF or was it BECAUSE his faith REMAINED and he returned to Him? Now on the other hand Jesus is warning Peter that his faith COULD FAIL because of what he is about to do.
So knowing that was there any time that you could actually say you went into full blown UNBELIEF? Or was it your FAITH that caused you to return?
For the record I do not believe in either OSAS or that works maintains your salvation. What maintains ones salvation is whether one REMAINS in faith or not. No one will be declared righteous in unbelief.
Now that being what is left out from the other side is that certain sins will KILL one's faith faster then others. Does anyone get the connection between what certain sins REQUIRED as a penalty under the Mosaic law and the list of sins that Paul wrote said WOULD NOT ENTER INTO the Kingdom.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[SUP][a][/SUP]
Galatians 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 22
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Anyone see the pattern here?
Murder (Hatred,discord,fits of rage) - Death
Adultery (sexual immorality,orgies,homosexuality) - Death
Idolatry (Greedy,selfish,ambitions,witchcraft) - Death
Etc,etc,etc. See the pattern?
Luke 22
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said,[SUP][c][/SUP] “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”[SUP] 33 [/SUP]But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then He said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.”
Did Peter ever go INTO UNBELIEF or was it BECAUSE his faith REMAINED and he returned to Him? Now on the other hand Jesus is warning Peter that his faith COULD FAIL because of what he is about to do.
So knowing that was there any time that you could actually say you went into full blown UNBELIEF? Or was it your FAITH that caused you to return?
For the record I do not believe in either OSAS or that works maintains your salvation. What maintains ones salvation is whether one REMAINS in faith or not. No one will be declared righteous in unbelief.
Now that being what is left out from the other side is that certain sins will KILL one's faith faster then others. Does anyone get the connection between what certain sins REQUIRED as a penalty under the Mosaic law and the list of sins that Paul wrote said WOULD NOT ENTER INTO the Kingdom.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[SUP][a][/SUP]
Galatians 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 22
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Anyone see the pattern here?
Murder (Hatred,discord,fits of rage) - Death
Adultery (sexual immorality,orgies,homosexuality) - Death
Idolatry (Greedy,selfish,ambitions,witchcraft) - Death
Etc,etc,etc. See the pattern?
Sad so many threads that could have been good and used to God's glory end up slinging dirt and digging up stuff that does not add to the thread but makes it more of a free for all....Anyway to restore peace and good will Here everyone I brought cookies....
Have a cookie....
Maybe we can shake hands and get back to giving God glory.......
Have a cookie....
Maybe we can shake hands and get back to giving God glory.......
E
lol, I can see this is going no where.
I guess you have never been anyplace where a person is hanging out with sinners, drunks, and protitutes, and not been condemned by the religious people as being a drunkard and having sex with those prostitutes.
I made an error saying addict. I admited to it, and you still want to carry on this war, when as I already said, that was not the point, I was arguing against someone who said we should not be around these people. when jesus was,
was I wrong in that?
E
Your not listening to a word I am saying, If your not going to listen, they why bother responding?
Your scripture reference has nothing to do about what I said, because that is what the author said about him, not what the Jewish Sadducee and pharisees said about him.
we have religious churches today, holier than though satan pits who say the same thing about a child of God who goes to bring the word of the lord to sinners they claim they are one of them, that was my point, the whole thing I said related to that, and your sitting here and going to argue that I said jesus was a sinner, when I never said anything even remotely like that!
Your scripture reference has nothing to do about what I said, because that is what the author said about him, not what the Jewish Sadducee and pharisees said about him.
we have religious churches today, holier than though satan pits who say the same thing about a child of God who goes to bring the word of the lord to sinners they claim they are one of them, that was my point, the whole thing I said related to that, and your sitting here and going to argue that I said jesus was a sinner, when I never said anything even remotely like that!
E
wow you people focused on one thing, and not the jist of the conversation.
lets just all jump on Jasons bandwagon and not hang out with sinners, not bring the word of God to the world. and lets just all be nice and cosey in our churches, and hide from the world so we do not sin (which is a lie) I lived that world and I know it happens.
Jesus was called a bastard child. he was convicted of hanging out with sinners, and I guarantee they tried to use him doing that (just like people do today) to say he was one of them.
it was for that reason he could not be the son of God, because the son of God would not do that. It EXCUSED THEIR BLINDNESS.
lets just all jump on Jasons bandwagon and not hang out with sinners, not bring the word of God to the world. and lets just all be nice and cosey in our churches, and hide from the world so we do not sin (which is a lie) I lived that world and I know it happens.
Jesus was called a bastard child. he was convicted of hanging out with sinners, and I guarantee they tried to use him doing that (just like people do today) to say he was one of them.
it was for that reason he could not be the son of God, because the son of God would not do that. It EXCUSED THEIR BLINDNESS.
E
You did not answer my question. so I will ask again.
The law states, if you do not obey every word written, you are under a curse (death)
So how can we fall back into condemnation, when we still sin, causing us to STILL be condemned by the law (in other words, we have NEVER met its standard, even AFTER being saved)
As james said, you break even the least of the law. your condemned (guilty) of breaking the whole law.
so are you going to answer? or keep going in circles?
Context Context! That passage speaks of the jews as a nation being cut off, and having what was theirs handed to gentiles. the warning is that if we as gentiles do not continue on, we will be cut off, andthe church will be handed back to isreal.
Nice try though.
Again, Does not prove your point.
A child adopted by God can not continue in sin, The JUST lives in faith, if they have no faith, then they draw back. (a dog returns to his vomit)
No conditions there, only positions. Your either adopted by God, thus empowered to do his commands, or your not adopted by God, and although you may be following his commands, your not doing the. Your a wolf in sheeps clothing, God sees your heart, and he knows those works are bloody rags, and worthless.
Not by works of righteousness which WE HAVE DONE, by BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US.
Stop trying to save yourself. Your fighting a losing battle.