A question...

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the creator of all things is the one who defined right and wrong, it is our place to seek His word and His face, and live according to how He would guide us, (prov. 3:5-6) when we begin to "reason" with ourselves whether or not its right in our eyes we can be led astray, but if we always stick to the unfailing stability of the scriptures as our guide then we will walk as he empowers us too and not according to fleshly inclinations...
 
A question for you 'Biblical Scholars',

is Morality, which by some is defined as the principles of discerning what is right or wrong, based on those who 'do good ' (good people) these being Moral people, and those who live in Immorality, doing that which is immoral as defined by those who 'boast in Morality'...

is Morality -------> a benchmark for being a christian? and is being Moral , good enough to Merit the Kingdm of Heaven?

-------------------------------

I look forward to the answers and dialogue! have a great Monday!

I know many atheists, evolutionists and secular humanists that are good moral people, but that does not save them one bit.
It has only made them a god unto their self
 

Very well.

By oldhermit


As we move from creation to the garden there develops an emerging discontinuity between man and his association with forbidden things. When man is unconstrained by revelation, he quite naturally draws conclusions based upon how he relates to the world around him. Man allows what he experiences to influence how he defines what is relevant. Once man learns to link the natural to the eternal, he learns to represent human events in quite a different way. One cannot build a triadic picture of reality based upon experiential logic. Human rationalization operating on its own cannot properly context the relationship of man to the natural world. Building a triadic picture of reality is only possible when one learns to represent human experience in the light of revelation. To do this, one must allow revelation to transcend experiential logic.


There is an example of triadic structure that demonstrates how the natural world and the supernatural world relate to one another in the eternal continuum. At the beginning of man’s history in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mentioned in the context of man’s relationship both to God and to the natural world. The text never seems to indicate that in the beginning there was any prohibition to the tree of life but that man was only denied access to the tree of knowledge. It was not until after the fall of man that God placed an angel with a flaming sword at the east of the garden to prohibit man’s access to the tree of life. The way in which Adam chose to represent these trees would reflect his understanding of his association with both God and the natural world. As the narrative unfolds, it becomes clear that access to the tree of life was predicated upon man’s observance of the divine prohibition of the other. Man was to have absolutely no contact with the tree of knowledge. God had provided every tree of the garden for man’s use and pleasure, but this tree was to be left strictly alone. These two trees stand as symbols of a world beyond man’s sensory existence. The tree of forbidden knowledge represents the holiness, the superiority, and the sovereignty of God. It suggests that God always reserves unto Himself the things that belong exclusively to him. It is not merely the tree that has exclusivity, but what that tree represents. As a whole, man is never content to abide by prohibitions. Here, he desires the one thing he is denied. How characteristic this has proven to be of human nature!


Although man was given the highest place of honor as the crowning creation of God with dominion over all creation, this tree was a reminder that even man is not God. Man must stand in the index position of this triadic structure and link the tree of knowledge that he can see to the will of God whom he cannot see. He must also link this tree to revealed consequences that he cannot see and has never before experienced. For Adam to properly relate to both worlds he must learn to link the eternal world to the natural world by bringing God’s warning to bear upon his relationship to this tree. He must learn how to define the nature of his relationship to this tree based on what God had told him about it. Now, this epistemology did not just apply to this tree but extended to everything in man’s dominion. He must understand his relationship to all of his domain based upon this triadic epistemology. God had already defined his function in creation and man must relate to his world according to the words of the Lord.



From the beginning, man was confronted with a decision in his association with this icon of good and evil. This tree was a symbol of an unseen reality. There is a particular type of knowledge man was not equipped to handle and should not seek to obtain. The accessibility of the tree shows that man was also given the ability to obtain this knowledge. The prohibition laid down by God says that this knowledge is destructive to man. This reinforces man’s position as a subordinate creature to what is unseen. God had said, “From this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shalt not eat of it; for in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die.” Here is a divine standard given to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Since God has decreed that punishment will follow disobedience, the validity of God’s word is upheld. Divine judgment preserves divine justice because it is through the exercise of justice that God protects his holiness. Observance of this revelation becomes a matter of life and death. The ethics were simple; God said, “Don’t touch it.” This did not require a human analysis of ethics to decide what might be the right thing to do. Contact with the tree was evil both because God said it was evil, and because of what man would suffer as a result.


We know, because of how this tree is interpreted by the physical senses in the text that man, left on his own, could not arrive at this conclusion. Adam could not see what the tree represented. He could only see the physical dynamics of the tree. For the rest, he must rely upon what God had told him about the tree. Man requires instruction from God to protect him from that which he has no point of reference to understand. As the Creator, God understood things about the nature of man and his relationship to his environment that man did not know and was not created to know. Man was not endowed with the capacity to distinguish between good knowledge and evil knowledge. This truth has not changed. The knowledge provided by this tree was not a necessary component for man to fulfill his role within his assigned environment.


The environment of the garden supplied every conceivable human need. He was even given access to the tree of life and the garden was a secure environment where man had no experience with fear, shame, and disgrace. These were yet unknown elements. It was an aesthetic environment where God controlled access to knowledge. There were certain things that man knew by design, but the prohibition of the tree says that there were those things which man should never want to know or seek to know.


In the garden, man enjoyed the presence of God and the full awareness of God. God knew that through disobedience man would be exiled from this controlled and protected environment and from his fellowship with God. By violating God’s prohibition, man challenged the sovereignty of God. Man does not have the authority to mandate a standard of moral conduct. The text of Genesis shows us that this level of knowledge belongs exclusively to God. Because man chose to behave sinfully, he is now confronted with a new reality. Adam is now aware of a particular type of knowledge that will forever change the way mankind represents the relationship he has with the natural world and with his God. It also laid a foundation by which humanity would forever be forced to choose between these two epistemologies. Should we represent reality based on revelation from God or should we rely on those things learned from pragmatic experiences? Which one will we depend upon to tell us the truth about what is relevant?


Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a revealed ethical standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.


When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.


She relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relied instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belongs to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.


Satan’s temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knew nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent created doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that she was already like God. He creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best but he is also able to supply it.


Satan then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever---".
good and bad is not a soul. ie feelings that can cause an action.
when did he know that he had a soul. or emotions. even paul tries to convey emotions and actions together.

9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
these are mostly feeling that express an action.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Galatians 5
 
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever---".
good and bad is not a soul. ie feelings that can cause an action.
when did he know that he had a soul. or emotions. even paul tries to convey emotions and actions together.

9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
these are mostly feeling that express an action.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Galatians 5

Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a revealed ethical standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.
 
would a song cause a emotional response, or physical action.

Both, AS David was led into the presence of the LORD thru Music! indeed...
---------------------------------

Evil men understand not Judgment, but they that seek the LORD understand All things. INdeed!
 
Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a revealed ethical standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.
i agree they did mot know the difference between good and bad.

an action building an ark, abraham believed god, and was give a promise.when did this action or belief, have anything to do with good or bad., ( Righteousness in god eyes ie paul gal 3. )

define good and bad, is not the same as a built in soul, ie senses like taste, touch,

with out the soul or senses they will always be there. to determine a reaction or response gal 5
 
would define, be used before discernment.

Its Discernment WHICH makes you DEFINE.. now the Source of that Discernment? some are talking about 'revelation' knowledge, Yes there is revelation 'knowledge'.. but what is the Source, who was the one in the Garden, telling Eve,

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.




 
i agree they did mot know the difference between good and bad.

an action building an ark, abraham believed god, and was give a promise.when did this action or belief, have anything to do with good or bad., ( Righteousness in god eyes ie paul gal 3. )define good and bad, is not the same as a built in soul, ie senses like taste, touch,

with out the soul or senses they will always be there. to determine a reaction or response gal 5
Because God said do it, and they obeyed. This is good. This is obedience to the revealed ethic.
 
Both, AS David was led into the presence of the LORD thru Music! indeed...
---------------------------------

Evil men understand not Judgment, but they that seek the LORD understand All things. INdeed!
if your save by grace a gift, ware would judgement be.

7 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;Luke 6
 
Regarding post #39:
1. I asked for a hamburger and you gave me a side of beef. I haven't received this kind of good-headache in a while. (Good-headache - when I'm so intent on reading and thinking over what I'm reading, it gives me a headache.) So give me time to digest. I don't have any questions yet, but I haven't digested it all. (I quit to write this about 2/3rds through -- I'm serious about the headache -- so there's a good chance there may be no questions.)

2. Please, please tell me you wrote this before. This isn't really how your mind works as a quick response, is it? (If it is, I feel like my thought processes just went down to first grade levels again. lol)

3. Hubby would love this, but there's no way I'd ever talk him into joining anything online even to read this. Can I e-mail it to him? And, if I can, how?

4. Who are you Oldhermit? And that's not a Yankee Who, that's a Southern Who. (Yankee vs. Southerner. The question is "Who's that fellow over there?" Yankee answer, "John." Southern answer, "You know Sam down the street? The man with the two rottweilers and three bloodhounds? That's his boy John, who has been away for college at Duke for the last three years to study... and... and... and..." I'm asking the Southern Who, as in how did you get to the point in life you can write something like this? Or, "Who are you?"

Because, Man! I haven't been blown away like this since back in the olden days when I subscribed to a Biblical Journal with nothing but multiple PhD men (Not Dead Guys lol) who spent decades learning what they were writing about and could still do a 25 page academic piece on tongues of all things.

Wow, heavy-duty. Glad I practiced patience for this. Now all I have to do is figure out how to digest it all.

Wow! Thanks. Someone didn't go deaf in the ears appreciating this.
 
Because God said do it, and they obeyed. This is good. This is obedience to the revealed ethic.
firstly we know god knows good and bad.

the point is when did humans understand things, like the soul. anger must be mastered as god told cain.
for example.
you still ,can have sexual feelings yet its a part of you, that needs to be mastered it dose not stop being a part of you, something need to be mastered yet cannot be removed as it has a built in function to determine a emotion.



illness can it be mastered,

so if god never told them how did they define good and bad.
 
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if your save by grace a gift, ware would judgement be.

7 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;Luke 6


that is Revealed from Heaven, Romans declares that, and His Own , His elect will discern, when the Righteous Judgment of God is poured out upon the wicked, and its focus upon those who hold out the Truth in 'un righteousness'... Romans declares that... His Elect, will discern that.. as it will be revealed to them thru the Paraclete. indeed...

For the Wrath of God is Revealed from Heaven Against all ungodliness and Unrighteousness of men, who hold the Truth in unrighteousness;

Notice they hold the Truth and proclaim it in Un righteousness... un righteousness by those who hold out the Truth or Hold it in their hands? profess it , teach it, preach it? that Un righteousness is uni belief in the complete Appeasement of Jesus the Christ, as Justification and Righteousness, 'they deny the imputed Righteousness of God' and create their own, claiming Christ and then adding a yoke to it.. some other aspect to set them apart from RIGHTEOUSNESS, which Faith in Christ , His work Alone.. today you have a planet that holds out the Truth in un righteousness.. how many different groups or sects or divisions of Christ are there? when the Word says He is not divided? mmmm the Final Global Apostate Corporate Whore, the Harlot of Revelation 17 will be a 'bride' that does just this.. totaLLY apostate and will Come under the HAND OF JUDGMENT OF THE ETERNAL as foretold in Revelation.. if your WISE, you will see this corporate 'whore' who calls itself the 'bride of christ'.. quickly filling up as we Near the time of Daniels 70th week.. the COMING Man of sin , needs a congregation, AND he will get his congregation, his bride, a WEEDY ONE, to be exact.
 
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever---".
good and bad is not a soul. ie feelings that can cause an action.
when did he know that he had a soul. or emotions. even paul tries to convey emotions and actions together.

9 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
these are mostly feeling that express an action.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.Galatians 5
Really, really? You can read all that, digest it that quickly and respond that quickly?

Same question -- Who are you? (Southerner answer please.)

(Man! I feel really dumb now! And, my headache just got worse.)
 
Regarding post #39:
1. I asked for a hamburger and you gave me a side of beef. I haven't received this kind of good-headache in a while. (Good-headache - when I'm so intent on reading and thinking over what I'm reading, it gives me a headache.) So give me time to digest. I don't have any questions yet, but I haven't digested it all. (I quit to write this about 2/3rds through -- I'm serious about the headache -- so there's a good chance there may be no questions.)

2. Please, please tell me you wrote this before. This isn't really how your mind works as a quick response, is it? (If it is, I feel like my thought processes just went down to first grade levels again. lol)

3. Hubby would love this, but there's no way I'd ever talk him into joining anything online even to read this. Can I e-mail it to him? And, if I can, how?

4. Who are you Oldhermit? And that's not a Yankee Who, that's a Southern Who. (Yankee vs. Southerner. The question is "Who's that fellow over there?" Yankee answer, "John." Southern answer, "You know Sam down the street? The man with the two rottweilers and three bloodhounds? That's his boy John, who has been away for college at Duke for the last three years to study... and... and... and..." I'm asking the Southern Who, as in how did you get to the point in life you can write something like this? Or, "Who are you?"

Because, Man! I haven't been blown away like this since back in the olden days when I subscribed to a Biblical Journal with nothing but multiple PhD men (Not Dead Guys lol) who spent decades learning what they were writing about and could still do a 25 page academic piece on tongues of all things.

Wow, heavy-duty. Glad I practiced patience for this. Now all I have to do is figure out how to digest it all.

Wow! Thanks. Someone didn't go deaf in the ears appreciating this.

Yes, the work is mine and is published under my real name. This is just part of my teaching outline on Genesis which I incorporated from a previous work of mine on Triadic Reality and the Nature of God.
 
Regarding post #39:
1. I asked for a hamburger and you gave me a side of beef. I haven't received this kind of good-headache in a while. (Good-headache - when I'm so intent on reading and thinking over what I'm reading, it gives me a headache.) So give me time to digest. I don't have any questions yet, but I haven't digested it all. (I quit to write this about 2/3rds through -- I'm serious about the headache -- so there's a good chance there may be no questions.)

2. Please, please tell me you wrote this before. This isn't really how your mind works as a quick response, is it? (If it is, I feel like my thought processes just went down to first grade levels again. lol)

3. Hubby would love this, but there's no way I'd ever talk him into joining anything online even to read this. Can I e-mail it to him? And, if I can, how?

4. Who are you Oldhermit? And that's not a Yankee Who, that's a Southern Who. (Yankee vs. Southerner. The question is "Who's that fellow over there?" Yankee answer, "John." Southern answer, "You know Sam down the street? The man with the two rottweilers and three bloodhounds? That's his boy John, who has been away for college at Duke for the last three years to study... and... and... and..." I'm asking the Southern Who, as in how did you get to the point in life you can write something like this? Or, "Who are you?"

Because, Man! I haven't been blown away like this since back in the olden days when I subscribed to a Biblical Journal with nothing but multiple PhD men (Not Dead Guys lol) who spent decades learning what they were writing about and could still do a 25 page academic piece on tongues of all things.

Wow, heavy-duty. Glad I practiced patience for this. Now all I have to do is figure out how to digest it all.

Wow! Thanks. Someone didn't go deaf in the ears appreciating this.
I read it all within 10 minutes of him posting it.....It was really good. I was thinking it sounded like something someone with a PhD would write too.....
 
that is Revealed from Heaven, Romans declares that, and His Own , His elect will discern, when the Righteous Judgment of God is poured out upon the wicked, and its focus upon those who hold out the Truth in 'un righteousness'... Romans declares that... His Elect, will discern that.. as it will be revealed to them thru the Paraclete. indeed...

For the WrathofGod is Revealedfrom Heaven Against all ungodliness and Unrighteousness of men, who hold the Truth in unrighteousness;

Notice they hold the Truth and proclaim it in Un righteousness... un righteousness by those who hold out the Truth or Hold it in their hands? profess it , teach it, preach it? that Un righteousness is uni belief in the complete Appeasement of Jesus the Christ, as Justification and Righteousness, 'they deny the imputed Righteousness of God' and create their own, claiming Christ and then adding a yoke to it.. some other aspect to set them apart from RIGHTEOUSNESS, which Faith in Christ , His work Alone.. today you have a planet that holds out the Truth in un righteousness.. how many different groups or sects or divisions of Christ are there? when the Word says He is not divided? mmmm the Final Global Apostate Corporate Whore, the Harlot of Revelation 17 will be a 'bride' that does just this.. totaLLY apostate and will Come under the HAND OF JUDGMENT OF THE ETERNAL as foretold in Revelation.. if your WISE, you will see this corporate 'whore' who calls itself the 'bride of christ'.. quickly filling up as we Near the time of Daniels 70th week.. the COMING Man of sin , needs a congregation, AND he will get his congregation, his bride, a WEEDY ONE, to be exact.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose Galatians 2
 
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose Galatians 2


DOES the Grace of God allow you TO make Righteous Judgement? or are we to just go blindly on in this Walk, not testing or not offending somebody else, because we may call 'their' Doctrine , not in line with His Word.??? we just need to all love each other.. does the Grace of God allow you to make Righteous Judgment as it pertains to the Things of the Spirit?
 
Really, really? You can read all that, digest it that quickly and respond that quickly?

Same question -- Who are you? (Southerner answer please.)

(Man! I feel really dumb now! And, my headache just got worse.)

LOL. Please don't feel dumb. You can always go back to Speak Your Mind and recoup for a while.