When does the rapture occur?

[VCO]

yes at Christ's coming, the general resurrection and final judgment




I wouldn't take riding lessons if I were you LOL you won't need them He comes back with His angels at His second coming, not seven years later.




we reign as priests NOW



we ARE the 144,000



Funny that God's promise to Abraham was a heavenly inheritance (Heb 11.10-16) which replaced the earthly one.



But the land of Israel is to be burned up and totally destroyed (2 Peter 3.10-13) except for those who murder the Greek



Yes at Christ's second coming.



LOL that's what we all say.



In a more wonderful way than Israel ever imagined. As He said to Abraham he would receive a HEAVENLY inheritance

Have you ever counted how many verses YOUR THEOLOGY contradicts?

Everything I teach and believe squares with SCRIPTURE.

You do not believe that Every Word of the Bible was Inspired by GOD do you?

If so, you do not believe that God is intelligent enough to SAY WHAT HE MEANS.

It sad how you turn a BLIND EYE to what the Scriptures actually say, because it does not fit what you WANT TO BELIEVE.

WE ARE NOT ISRAEL, AND WE ARE NOT THE 144,000. Never have been and never will be.

How much plainer could GOD have said it.


Revelation 7:4-10 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

{THOSE ABOVE are the 144,000 JEWS, it says so. And HERE Below IS THE CHURCH ALREADY IN HEAVEN.}
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

 

[JesusIsAll]

Are you suggesting then that Christians haven't already been dying in a horrible manner for two thousand years? Because God wouldn't let that happen?

This is the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and devils, persecution of the believer we were abundantly abundantly warned of by the Lord. It's an entirely straw man, vacuous argument that's a bit too old, as we're talking about the tribulation wrath of God being laid on the world, the seals opened by Christ Himself to begin the judgments, not the persecution of the evil elements of the world. There is no connection, zero, and a vast difference. God does not have any desire to persecute his spotless, blood-washed bride, like Satan does. Is the difference between God and Satan so unclear to some of you? So, what Holy Spirit are you getting such failed distinctions from?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Or let's put it this way. God at this time restrains Satan to a considerable degree, but the majority world and powers-that-be he dominates, with false and vicious religions like Islam, etc. This is the same world that would crucify Christ. The tribulation, on the other hand, will be a time of God removing restraint, allowing the world to come completely under Satan's thumb, with the inevitable all hell breaking loose, like no other time in history. God, Himself, is going to bring this on the world, the Lord opening the seals to begin the events of the apocalypse, saying, more or less, "Evil world, you want Satan, you've got him." But just as the Lord spared Noah and his before His wrath of the flood, and Lot and his before His destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, He does see to His elect's safety from His own judgment on evil men. It's theologically ludicrous that God would say, on the one hand, you're spotless in the blood of Christ, on the other hand that He's going to, Himself, lay His wrath on innocents, something that, rather, the devil makes a career of. The truth? Some of you just don't seem to even know your God by any common sense, as He is, also, known in His word. It's weird, of those claiming, presumably, Holy Spirit eyes.

 

[RickyZ]

As His Child, you were not ordained to Receive His Wrath.... Christ took that for you.. do you realize what Christ did for you at the bloody tree? what He endured for you? when you come to that understanding, then you will Realize He will NOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH a 2nd time Upon His own.. that is Double Jeopardy, doesnt work in the True Kingdom of Heaven, on TV yes. with Alex.. but not in the Kingdom of Heaven, Paul says we are not Ordained to Wrath but to Salvation.. if God pours Out His Wrath Upon His Own, then that makes God a liar and Paul a liar, which they are not.. sorry..

One must understand the difference between judgment and wrath in order to see their way clearly in this.

 

[VCO]

One must understand the difference between judgment and wrath in order to see their way clearly in this.

And one must believe and receive the biblical JESUS as LORD which means MASTER; and make sure they are not following a Counterfeit Jesus Christ.

 

[GaryA]

This is the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and devils, persecution of the believer we were abundantly abundantly warned of by the Lord. It's an entirely straw man, vacuous argument that's a bit too old, as we're talking about the tribulation wrath of God being laid on the world, the seals opened by Christ Himself to begin the judgments, not the persecution of the evil elements of the world. There is no connection, zero, and a vast difference. God does not have any desire to persecute his spotless, blood-washed bride, like Satan does. Is the difference between God and Satan so unclear to some of you? So, what Holy Spirit are you getting such failed distinctions from?

Or let's put it this way. God at this time restrains Satan to a considerable degree, but the majority world and powers-that-be he dominates, with false and vicious religions like Islam, etc. This is the same world that would crucify Christ. The tribulation, on the other hand, will be a time of God removing restraint, allowing the world to come completely under Satan's thumb, with the inevitable all hell breaking loose, like no other time in history. God, Himself, is going to bring this on the world, the Lord opening the seals to begin the events of the apocalypse, saying, more or less, "Evil world, you want Satan, you've got him." But just as the Lord spared Noah and his before His wrath of the flood, and Lot and his before His destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, He does see to His elect's safety from His own judgment on evil men. It's theologically ludicrous that God would say, on the one hand, you're spotless in the blood of Christ, on the other hand that He's going to, Himself, lay His wrath on innocents, something that, rather, the devil makes a career of. The truth? Some of you just don't seem to even know your God by any common sense, as He is, also, known in His word. It's weird, of those claiming, presumably, Holy Spirit eyes.

I refer you to this already-given 'what-I-was-going-to-say' answer:

One must understand the difference between judgment and wrath in order to see their way clearly in this.

While it is true that the book with the seven seals represents 'judgment', this does not mean that each 'seal', 'trumpet', and 'vial' represents "a 'portion' of the Wrath of God being laid on the world"...


Show me how Seal #5 fits [ directly ] into the "Wrath of God being laid on the world" definition.


The "opening of the [ individual ] seals" ( themselves ) do not represent the "issuing of [ individual ] judgments" ( or the "laying on" of any of the Wrath of God ) upon the world. When examining the seven seals, remember:

~ The number '7' is the number of 'completion'.

~ In this context ( The book is about judgment. ), a seal on a book or scroll signifies two things:

1. Whatever is contained in the book or scroll has been 'declared' by whatever authority placed the seal.

- i.e., 'judgment' has been declared upon the wicked.

2. Only one who has authority to open the seal may do so.

- i.e., only Jesus has the authority to execute that 'judgment' on the wicked.

~ Only after all [ seven ] of the seals have been 'opened', may the book be 'opened'.

The book is about judgment. The things that John sees when Jesus opens the seals are the "precursor set up" for the judgment.


Look at the following passage:


Revelation 6:

[SUP]9[/SUP] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [SUP]10[/SUP] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [SUP]11[/SUP] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Note that 'the souls under the alter' are still awaiting judgment and vengence ( i.e., Wrath of God ).

"Four seals previously opened. Fifth seal now opened. No vengence ( Wrath of God ) as of yet."

The point I am making here is that there are things that may be considered 'judgment' - yet, they are not part of the Wrath of God.


The Wrath of God is defined for us very clearly in this passage:


Revelation 15:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... [SUP]6[/SUP] And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. [SUP]7[/SUP] And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. [SUP]8[/SUP] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


Note that the trumpet events are not included in the Wrath of God -- albeit, they are certainly part of that which may be called Judgment.

In a way - the things associated with the opening of the seals may even be considered ( in an "overall" sense ) to be part of the Judgment. However, they are not part of the Wrath of God.

Judgment is the 'declaration' against the wicked. It represents the guarantee of consequences.

The Wrath of God is the execution of the sentence of that Judgment.


The things that are associated with the 'seals' have to do with the "carrying out" of the 'judgment'.

The things that are associated with the 'trumpets' have to do with the "carrying out" of the 'sentence'.

The things that are associated with the 'vials' have to do with the "carrying out" of the 'execution'.


Understand?

 

[Bowhunter2394]

You know when the Harpazo Happens, and it will, those who are still aruging about its 'timing'.. when it does Happen, afterwards WILL STILL BE ARGUING about it.. lolz.. smh.. incredible.. lamps were 1/4 full, not Full.. most of those will take their place in History as they get global membership into that Global Apostate Corporate Lady, the Word calls the Great Harlot! the Whore of Revelation 17.. indeed!

some will be saved out of it.. so therefore, you sons of Jacob ARE NOT CONSUMED!

 

[valiant]

Have you ever counted how many verses YOUR THEOLOGY contradicts?

have you considered how much of yours is pure fantasy? especially your manipulating of the seventy sevens?

Everything I teach and believe squares with SCRIPTURE.

hahahahahahahahaha

You do not believe that Every Word of the Bible was Inspired by GOD do you?

yes and I don't twist the Greek and Hebrew to fit into my ideas,

If so, you do not believe that God is intelligent enough to SAY WHAT HE MEANS.

He speaks to people in the environment that they are.

It sad how you turn a BLIND EYE to what the Scriptures actually say, because it does not fit what you WANT TO BELIEVE

.

Don't cry too hard. Just wait til you see I'm right

WE ARE NOT ISRAEL,

of course we are Israel. It is crystal clear in the New Testament. Rom.11.12-24; Gal 3.29; 6.16; Ephe 2.11-22; 1 Pet 2.9; James 1.1. When Jesus came Israel divided into two, Messiah believers and Messiah rejecters. The Messiah rejecters were cut off from Israel. All who believed in the Messiah were grafted in and became part of Israel. Israel has always welcomed Gentile proselytes.

AND WE ARE NOT THE 144,000. Never have been and never will be.

we are NOW the 144,000

How much plainer could GOD have said it.

true. see Rom 11.12-24; Gal 3.29; 6.16; Ephe 2.11-22; 1 Pet 2.9; JaMES 1.1

Revelation 7:4-10 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

THATS WHY JAMES 1.1 CALLS CHRISTIANS 'THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL'.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

THOSE ABOVE are the 144,000 JEWS, it says so.

I see no mention of Jews they are the true Messiah believing Israel, the church of Christ.

And HERE Below IS THE CHURCH ALREADY IN HEAVEN.}

[SUP] ][/SUP]

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude whichh no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; [SUP]10 [/SUP] and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

A final picture of the redeemed though the centuries.

 

[VCO]

have you considered how much of yours is pure fantasy? especially your manipulating of the seventy sevens?
. . .

of course we are Israel. It is crystal clear in the New Testament. Rom.11.12-24; Gal 3.29; 6.16; Ephe 2.11-22; 1 Pet 2.9; James 1.1. When Jesus came Israel divided into two, Messiah believers and Messiah rejecters. The Messiah rejecters were cut off from Israel. All who believed in the Messiah were grafted in and became part of Israel. Israel has always welcomed Gentile proselytes.

we are NOW the 144,000

true. see Rom 11.12-24; Gal 3.29; 6.16; Ephe 2.11-22; 1 Pet 2.9; JaMES 1.1

THATS WHY JAMES 1.1 CALLS CHRISTIANS 'THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL'.

. . .

AND in ROM.11:25 PAUL makes a distinction between ISRAEL and Gentile Christians:

Romans 11:25-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs,
[SUP]29 [/SUP] since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

COME IN to what? Did you not know that the WORD Church is NOT in the original Greek?

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

Deuteronomy 23:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] The children born to them in the third generation may enter the LORD’s assembly.

THAT is what you were grafted into, NOT ISRAEL.

The program in the 70 "sevens" (9:24)

9:24. Daniel was first informed that God's program would be consummated in 70 "sevens." Since Daniel had been thinking of God's program in terms of years (v. 1; cf. Jer. 25:11-12; 2 Chron. 36:21), it would be most natural for him to understand these "sevens" as years. Whereas people today think in units of tens (e.g., decades), Daniel's people thought in terms of sevens (heptads).
. . .
At the end of the 490 years God will finish the transgression of Israel. The verb "to finish" (kālāʾ) means "to bring something to an end." Israel's sin of disobedience will be brought to an end at Christ's second coming when she repents and turns to Him as her Messiah and Savior. Then she will be restored to the land and blessed, in answer to Daniel's prayer.
. . .
Thus the first two segments of the important time period—the 7 sevens (49 years) and the 62 sevens (434 years)—ran consecutively with no time between them. They totaled 483 years and extended from March 5, 444 b.c. to March 30, a.d. 33.
. . .
According to Daniel 9:26 the Anointed One was not "cut off" in the 70th "seven"; He was cut off after the 7 and 62 "sevens" had run their course. This means that there is an interval between the 69th and 70th "sevens." Christ's crucifixion, then, was in that interval, right after His Triumphal Entry, which concluded the 69th "seven." This interval was anticipated by Christ when He prophesied the establishing of the church (Matt. 16:18). This necessitated the setting aside of the nation Israel for a season in order that His new program for the church might be instituted. Christ predicted the setting aside of the nation (Matt. 21:42-43). The present Church Age is the interval between the 69th and 70th "sevens."

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Israel's Future, Part 1

1:1 James. The half-brother of the Lord Jesus (see Introduction: Author and Date; cf. Gal. 1:19; 2:9). bondservant. See note on Romans 1:1. twelve tribes. A common NT title for Jews (cf. Matt. 19:28; Acts 26:7; Rev. 7:4). . . . . But James’s primary audience was those who were scattered because of persecution
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

"To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." It is obvious that James is referring to the believers in Israel. He is writing to the Christian Jews of that day. After all, the early church was 100 percent Jewish for quite a period of time. A few Gentiles became believers, and then a great revival broke out in the heart of the Roman Empire in the area of what is Turkey today. That is where the seven churches of Asia Minor were located. But James, evidently writing before this took place, is addressing the Jewish believers.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

The letter is addressed to the 12 tribes scattered among the nations. James was writing to the Jews dispersed from their homeland. The technical term "scattered" (diaspora) occurs in only two other places in the New Testament (John 7:35; 1 Peter 1:1). It refers to the Jews who were scattered among the Gentiles as their ancestors had been in the days of the Captivity. Though the 12 tribes of Israel are scattered, they are never lost. They are again listed at the close of biblical history in the Book of Revelation: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin (Rev. 7:5-8; cf. 21:12).
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

The Letter is addressed to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, literally which are in the Dispersion (Gk., Diaspora). These people were Jews by birth, belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. Because of Israel's sin, the people had been driven from their native land and were now dispersed in the countries surrounding the Mediterranean.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

To the twelve tribes.

The Jews are often so designated. See Acts 26:7. Scattered abroad. Rather “of the Dispersion,” a term applied to Jews outside of Judea.
Johnson's Notes on the New Testament.

James primarily uses the phrase to represent the Jewish Christians living outside of Palestine, perhaps due to persecution after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1-3).
Layman's Bible Commentary - Layman's Bible Commentary – Volume 12: Hebrews thru Revelation.

To the twelve tribes - Of Israel; that is, those of them that believe.
Which are scattered abroad - In various countries. Ten of the tribes were scattered ever since the reign of Hosea; and great part of the rest were now dispersed through the Roman empire: as was foretold, Deuteronomy 28:25, etc. Deuteronomy 30:4.
Explanatory Notes upon the New Testament.

 

[PlainWord]

Harvest has 4 parts (leviticus)

1st firstfruits (Jesus and those in paradise)
2nd main harvest (The living and the dead 1 thes 4)
3rd corners (Those left behind)
4th gleaners (stragglers,Jews christians hiding and found.....martyred.......possibly the 144k)


That is just the way it is pw. Your clumping into one is NOT biblical

Show me the passage that gives you 4 parts to the harvest. You are speculating. Actually you are splitting one resurrection into 4 to fit your rapture timing. However, if the rapture is at the end, which is the clear teaching, only one resurrection for the righteous is needed, which is very biblical.

 

[JesusIsAll]

You're not going to like this, but sometimes a flush is required of all our blather and scripture needs posting again, to cleanse this thread. I know it's painful, how you just want to put one hand over your eyes and hit the scroll bar with the other hand, but it's for your own good.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:8-10 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Luke 21:33-36 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Interesting of Geneva Bible: 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition, which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work; only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Revelation 19:11-14)

Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

Genesis 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

Psalms 27:4-5 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple. For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

Isaiah 26:19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers [wedding chambers], and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[PlainWord]

Getting creative are we ? Church and israel? You made that up son

No, I interpreted a spiritual passage written in apocalyptic literary style designed to hide the true meaning. You, and many others, want to literalize a spiritual passage. The entire chapter of Revelation 11 is spiritual loaded with Biblical symbols as is most of the book. For you to read it literally would be like trying to read Chinese braille with gloves on.

So you see 2 men who breathe fire from their mouths and burn up their enemies. You see a literal Beast crawling out of a bottomless pit who first wages war with 2 men, like a science fiction movie - Godzilla maybe, then you see this giant beast killing the two fire breathing men. This whole thing about the 2 witnesses is right out of Hollywood. It isn't literal my friend.

John isn't taking an actual reed down to measure a temple which doesn't exist.
The two witnesses aren't really olive trees and lampstands
Godzilla isn't going to crawl out of a bottomless pit
The "Great City" Sodom and Egypt is not an actual city. Sodom was destroyed long ago. We are told it is a spiritual place, not a real place. We are told it is the same spiritual place that Christ was killed. Guess what??? A spiritual place, is not a literal place. It isn't literal Jerusalem. It isn't literal Sodom and it isn't literal Egypt.

What does Paul say?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We wrestle against spiritual invisible evil forces. Thus Israel and the Church will be killed in the spiritual realm. They will lose the war of public opinion and sentiment in the world. This has pretty much already happened (or in the process of happening) if you ask me. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry. It isn't for everyone to understand.

 

[PlainWord]

As His Child, you were not ordained to Receive His Wrath.... Christ took that for you.. do you realize what Christ did for you at the bloody tree? what He endured for you? when you come to that understanding, then you will Realize He will NOT POUR OUT HIS WRATH a 2nd time Upon His own.. that is Double Jeopardy, doesnt work in the True Kingdom of Heaven, on TV yes. with Alex.. but not in the Kingdom of Heaven, Paul says we are not Ordained to Wrath but to Salvation.. if God pours Out His Wrath Upon His Own, then that makes God a liar and Paul a liar, which they are not.. sorry..

The wrath happens at His coming, not during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is of Satan and God's wrath is in response to it. Paul tells us:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

So when is God's Wrath? When the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven.

Who is God repaying? Those who trouble "us."

How are those troubling us? With "Tribulation."

Seems pretty clear to me, but I guess lost on many.

 

[VCO]

The wrath happens at His coming, not during the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is of Satan and God's wrath is in response to it. Paul tells us:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

So when is God's Wrath? When the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven.

Who is God repaying? Those who trouble "us."

How are those troubling us? With "Tribulation."

Seems pretty clear to me, but I guess lost on many.

Can you read English?

Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

 

[PlainWord]

Can you read English?

Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood (this is a lunar eclipse);
[SUP]13 [/SUP] the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

As a matter of fact, I read English quite well. Do you? Can you point out where in the passage you provided does it state that the period being discussed is during the Great Tribulation?

Let me test your reading skills.

Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Do you see any similarity between the two passages? I will highlight in BOLD GREEN to make it easier for you. The Mat 24 passage locates this as being "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION". Oops. The Trib is over before the Wrath of the Lamb begins.

So, what does this mean? It means the entire passage of Rev 6:12-17 is AFTER the Tribulation has ended. I know, it's hard to understand, but stick with it and try to open your mind to new ideas as yours are wrong.

 

[VCO]

Show me the passage that gives you 4 parts to the harvest. You are speculating. Actually you are splitting one resurrection into 4 to fit your rapture timing. However, if the rapture is at the end, which is the clear teaching, only one resurrection for the righteous is needed, which is very biblical.

WHY? So you can SCOFF some more?

2 Peter 3:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."



1. The Dead in Christ Rise First, OT and NT Saints - 1 Thess. 4:16.

2. Then Church-age Saints that are still alive at that time - 1 Thess. 4:17.

3. Then Seven Years later the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation already in HEAVEN spiritually have their bodies Resurrected and the combination of all three is CALLED "The FIRST Resurrection or the Resurrection of the Righteous" - Rev. 20:4-5, Acts 24:15, & Mat. 25:46.

4. The Unbelievers of ALL TIME are also raised from the DEAD, 1000 Years Later to face HIS ETERNAL JUDGEMENT - Rev. 20:5, & Mat 25:46.



The 144,000 enter HIS 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom in their MORTAL BODIES. They are the continuation of GOD's Promise to Jacob that they will possess the land of Canaan as an Everlasting Covenant; so THEY DO NOT DIE in the Great Tribulation - Rev. 7:3 & 9:4. The 144,000 are sealed on the forehead, and are NOT the Church; because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in us - Eph. 4:30.

 

[PlainWord]

Does it matter which order seals are removed from a scroll? Notice Christ starts by removing "ONE OF THEM," it does not say He removed the "First One." After He removes the first one, then it gives the order in which he removes them, i.e., second, third, fourth etc...

6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”

Look at the below. Do we know which of the 7 Christ removes first? Is it the top one, bottom one, or one in the middle? We don't know and it doesn't matter.

Can a scroll be read until all 7 seals are removed? No

What do the seals of a scroll do? They prevent the contents of the scroll from being read

Who is supposed to know what a sealed scroll says? The person(s) it is written to

Who was Revelation written to? His Servants

 

[PlainWord]

WHY? So you can SCOFF some more?

I do not scoff at the returning of Christ. I scoff at your timing for the return of Christ because it conflicts with the timing Christ gives us. That is a big difference.

1. The Dead in Christ Rise First, OT and NT Saints - 1 Thess. 4:16.

YES, AGREED!!!

2. Then Church-age Saints that are still alive at that time - 1 Thess. 4:17.

What about them? Saints are Saints. There is no such thing as a Pre Trib Saint and a Trib Saint. You make that distinction but the Bible contains no such distinction. The reason the Bible never makes such a distinction is because there is no distinction. A saint is a saint. When a saint dies, he or she goes to heaven.

3. Then Seven Years later the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation...

There is no Seven years later. When Christ comes, He defeats His enemies and gathers His ELECT. The 7 years, as you call it, come before Christ returns and I'm talking ANY return.

"The FIRST Resurrection or the Resurrection of the Righteous" - Rev. 20:4-5, Acts 24:15, & Mat. 25:46.

This happens on the LAST DAY - John 6:40, 44, 54 and other places. This does not happen before the Tribulation and no passage ever tells you it does.

4. The Unbelievers of ALL TIME are also raised from the DEAD, 1000 Years Later to face HIS ETERNAL JUDGEMENT - Rev. 20:5, & Mat 25:46.

Revelation 20 does seem to tell us this. Other passages such as Dan 12 and Mat 13 and 24 seem to indicate a more simultaneous resurrection but I can certainly see the wicked being resurrected 1,000 years later. I am not really focused on the wicked right now other than to want to help them come to Christ.

The 144,000 enter HIS 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom in their MORTAL BODIES. They are the continuation of GOD's Promise to Jacob that they will possess the land of Canaan as an Everlasting Covenant; so THEY DO NOT DIE in the Great Tribulation - Rev. 7:3 & 9:4. The 144,000 are sealed on the forehead, and are NOT the Church; because we are sealed by the Holy Spirit in us - Eph. 4:30.

There is a lot of speculation in the above statement.

 

[sltaylor]

There is one mention of being caught up (raptured) in revelation that catches my eye.
Right before the 7th and last trumpet John is told not to write something down because in the days when the Angel is about to sound the 7th trumpet the mystery of God will be accomplished.

I find that phrase of the mystery being accomplished very interesting.
There is a mystery of Christ in us, the hope of Glory.

And then there is what happens right after that trumpet, a woman gives birth to a son and the child is snatched up to God.

I think this had something to do with the mystery being accomplished. And at the LAST TRUMPET of all places...

There is a woman spoke of in the NT. She represents the heavenly Jerusalem. Paul quotes from Isaiah 54. He said we are her children.

Isaiah called this woman Zion in chapter 54.
ISAIAH CALLS her ZION in chapter 66 as well and says she delivers a son.
Isaiah then call THIS 'Son' a nation and a country.

This is still the same woman who is our mother. So these children represent a singular 'son', and a nation and country.

There is a woman who gives birth right after the last trumpet. I believe this is Zion, delivering her 'son', and that child is CAUGHT UP TO GOD.

Ok, so is this our mother. YES.
Peter calls us a chosen poeple, a HOLY NATION.
This son is the body of Christ, who as ISAIAH SAYS, IS BORN IN AN INSTANT.

I've tried to say it before. But this is the LAST TRUMPET this happens at. There is a woman, her son is CAUGHT UP. This son is the NATION of us all, who represent one, the body of Christ, in him we are all 1.

At the transformation the glory inside all of us is revealed.
This happens at the last trumpet.
There are 7 trumpets.
The mystery of God is accomplished at the last one.
Her children are transformed and CAUGHT UP.
THE SON, is the Body of Christ, who represent one, but are also a holy nation, as ISAIAH and Peter declared.


1 Peter 2:9-But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood,*a holy nation...a holy nation, just like Isaiah 66 says her children are.



Right after we are woken up, and caught up, there is war in heaven which also fulfills Habakkuk 2. That prophecy 'spoke of the end'.
The debtors 'suddenly ARRISE', and then he becomes our victim.
The only one we are victims of is Satan. Our debt has been paid.
The debtors suddenly arising are us, remember, Habakkuk says this vision spoke of the end, and then he becomes our victim.
The VERY SAME THING happens right after the 'son' is caught up.

So in my opinion, and I know there are many other, the only woman ever prophesied to have children is the Heavenly Jerusalem, she is our mother, and we are caught up and transformed,....all of this right after the last trumpet.

That being said, I was a revelation 6th seal kind of guy. I don't think we are taken up right then though. I want to believe that. I think we receive some kind of sheltering while this is going on, to fulfill what David says, you will only observe these things froma distance. But I keep coming back to the woman giving birth and the mystery being accomplished then.

 

[VCO]

Does it matter which order seals are removed from a scroll? Notice Christ starts by removing "ONE OF THEM," it does not say He removed the "First One." After He removes the first one, then it gives the order in which he removes them, i.e., second, third, fourth etc...

6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”

Look at the below. Do we know which of the 7 Christ removes first? Is it the top one, bottom one, or one in the middle? We don't know and it doesn't matter.

Can a scroll be read until all 7 seals are removed? No

What do the seals of a scroll do? They prevent the contents of the scroll from being read

Who is supposed to know what a sealed scroll says? The person(s) it is written to

Who was Revelation written to? His Servants

I cannot believe modern men cannot think through how a scroll would be sealed seven times in Bible times. The erroneous picture above, is NOT your fault, MOST OF THE ARTISTS of today, GOT IT TOTALLY WRONG. No way would there be seven seals on ONE EDGE as pictured. The entire prophesy would have been written, and then rolled back up placing a seal between each event, if that is where the author wanted. Therefore the last event would be rolled up, and the sealed placed before any part of that last written event could be seen. Then it would be rolled some more, and another seal placed, between events, awaiting the one that has the AUTHORITY to break that seal; before readers could read that part. And so on, and so on. Therefore the DEEPEST seal in the scroll, would be the last seal; and the ONE on the outer edge would be the FIRST SEAL. Like I said it does not take a genius to figure that out, YET, most artists today picture all seven on the OUTER EDGE. This artist at least got that right, even though he was not a very good artist: