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yahweh's children aren't trying to declare the future or some such thing.
they are at peace in union in yahshua, telling the truth to one another, rejoicing in union with yahweh, living his life, talking to one another every day about yahshua(jesus) and yahweh, and taking care of the poor among them as yahweh's WORD SAYS ...
just try finding even a small group that tells the truth to each other all the time.... that's hard enough as it is....
they are at peace in union in yahshua, telling the truth to one another, rejoicing in union with yahweh, living his life, talking to one another every day about yahshua(jesus) and yahweh, and taking care of the poor among them as yahweh's WORD SAYS ...
just try finding even a small group that tells the truth to each other all the time.... that's hard enough as it is....
fivefold ministry
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
Yahweh Shalom
The 5 fold ministry or offices is a Later reign concept put forward by Peter Wagner and his NAR group.
It justifies authority and domination concepts, where you are answerable to their "spiritual" leadership. The problem is Jesus did not exercise dictatorship over peoples lives like they do, which is more like personality cults, where the figure head is deemed an apostle.
Now the prophets of this group accept that 80% of their prophecy is wrong. So rather than having authority they are actually forgeries, trying out to see if someone will hirer them.
Look at the prophets Elijah, Ezekiel etc. they were specific men speaking the warning to Israel about judgement if they did not repent. In a sense as christians we are all prophets, preaching the word of Jesus, repent and believe and you will be saved.
The apostles were only authorative from other believers because they had seen Jesus, and they could give guidance. But you will notice even Peter needed a change of heart about gentiles, and the office was a descriptive title to their special role in the church which has now been transfered to paper.
The other 3 ministries are what the church has been doing since its beginning, and is essential for decipleship and growth.
The error the NAR is making is to put 3rd heaven experiences at the same level as the bible, rather than dubious stories or hallucinations of a questionable kind.
You get a kind of idea, the bible is old and fixed, but that guy over there told me what God wants me to know today about the angel of wealth, or this gem or this gold dust shows this place is blessed because an angel has passed by.
Now think about this. If your words need this kind of support with superstition, are you speaking the word of God, or just making up stories to get attention. Look on you tube and the race to the bottom is on, who can claim the most number of angelic visitations, or gems, or special events. These groups are getting closer to the catholic church and its fascination with artifacts rather than changed hearts. I mean you can buy or fake a gem, but changed hearts either exist or they do not, and if you have no clue what the gospel really is, which would you preach if push came to shove, and you have to put food on the table of a failing ministry?
It justifies authority and domination concepts, where you are answerable to their "spiritual" leadership. The problem is Jesus did not exercise dictatorship over peoples lives like they do, which is more like personality cults, where the figure head is deemed an apostle.
Now the prophets of this group accept that 80% of their prophecy is wrong. So rather than having authority they are actually forgeries, trying out to see if someone will hirer them.
Look at the prophets Elijah, Ezekiel etc. they were specific men speaking the warning to Israel about judgement if they did not repent. In a sense as christians we are all prophets, preaching the word of Jesus, repent and believe and you will be saved.
The apostles were only authorative from other believers because they had seen Jesus, and they could give guidance. But you will notice even Peter needed a change of heart about gentiles, and the office was a descriptive title to their special role in the church which has now been transfered to paper.
The other 3 ministries are what the church has been doing since its beginning, and is essential for decipleship and growth.
The error the NAR is making is to put 3rd heaven experiences at the same level as the bible, rather than dubious stories or hallucinations of a questionable kind.
You get a kind of idea, the bible is old and fixed, but that guy over there told me what God wants me to know today about the angel of wealth, or this gem or this gold dust shows this place is blessed because an angel has passed by.
Now think about this. If your words need this kind of support with superstition, are you speaking the word of God, or just making up stories to get attention. Look on you tube and the race to the bottom is on, who can claim the most number of angelic visitations, or gems, or special events. These groups are getting closer to the catholic church and its fascination with artifacts rather than changed hearts. I mean you can buy or fake a gem, but changed hearts either exist or they do not, and if you have no clue what the gospel really is, which would you preach if push came to shove, and you have to put food on the table of a failing ministry?
The 5 fold ministry is defined in Ephesians 4 and is not a concept.
Eph 4.11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the [SUP][d][/SUP]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; [SUP]13 [/SUP]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [SUP][e][/SUP]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [SUP][f][/SUP]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
There were also NT prophets.
Eph 4.11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for the equipping of the [SUP][d][/SUP]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; [SUP]13 [/SUP]until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [SUP][e][/SUP]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [SUP][f][/SUP]which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
There were also NT prophets.
Well now, did Yahweh tell us in John 16.12-15 that the Holy Spirit would show us things to come?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
P
fivefold ministry
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
As far as prophets and apostles;
Apostle simply means "sent" or "sent to build churches"
Prophets are called and gifted and annointed to serve the body. In rev it says "the trestimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"
"I precieve......this or that" "I see in the spirit" .....visions,dreams,warnings......all part of the prophetic
"Seer" (see-er) is what a prophet is sometimes called
M
fivefold ministry
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
1. Prophets
2. Apostles
3. Pastors
4. Evangelist
5. Teachers
Do all of these still applicable these days?? Because some says Prophets and Apostles are already been fulfilled
and out dated this current times. Thanks for the answer in advance
Under this scenario you would have given a word of knowledge, which is you will be a Prophet, while prophesying.
1 Cor 14.3 says all men that speak words that edify, exhort and comfort to other men carry out general prophecy. Anyone can speka words of edification, exhortation and comfort. This is also the Romans 12 motive gift of prophecy and exhorter.
The gift of prophecy is 1 of 3 vocal gifts found in 1 Cor 12 and as you stated is usually a step ordering or in season word fitly spoken to someone, that is, as you correctly stated, a confirming word that God has already spoken to someone and it confirms to them, what God has already stated. The same rules apply here, the word needs to edify, exhort, strengthen and comfort the hearer.
A prophet today should operate in 1 or more of the revelation gifts and 1 or more of the vocal gifts found in 1 Cor 12.
1 Cor 14.3 says all men that speak words that edify, exhort and comfort to other men carry out general prophecy. Anyone can speka words of edification, exhortation and comfort. This is also the Romans 12 motive gift of prophecy and exhorter.
The gift of prophecy is 1 of 3 vocal gifts found in 1 Cor 12 and as you stated is usually a step ordering or in season word fitly spoken to someone, that is, as you correctly stated, a confirming word that God has already spoken to someone and it confirms to them, what God has already stated. The same rules apply here, the word needs to edify, exhort, strengthen and comfort the hearer.
A prophet today should operate in 1 or more of the revelation gifts and 1 or more of the vocal gifts found in 1 Cor 12.
M
Prophecies line up with scripture, are confirmed by other ministers and also by God with the individual. A prophecy does not have a sale by date and does not need to be pushed. It could come true twenty years later. You never know had the father not pulled the plug she could have made it. Maybe if he was told and accepted it would have been different. You never know.
Taking church traditions as superior to scholarly interpretations of Bible words like prophet and apostle is what casues denominations, divisions of believers over mostly traditions. It's a vicious circle of troubles.
The Bible doesn't limit apostleship to only those who knew Jesus in the flesh and wrote scripture. Judas was an apostle, who wrote no scripture that we know of, and broke with fellowship with Jesus. In fact all the 12 abandoned Jesus, which can't be said of all who set out to follow Jesus these days. How many of the 16 apostles listed in the Bible actually contributed logos for us to read? Luke wrote two of the N.T. books. Was he an apostle? How about Mark? Apostle? I think that should help disqualify one traditional requirement of an apostle.
The Greek 'apostolols' is descriptive of, among Greeks, a delegate, ambassador, messenger of. The word was not invented by the Greeks for Christin use pertaining to Jesus. The Greek language was adopted by those who recorded the scriptures in Greek.
There are many messengers/ambassadors of the gospel commissioned by the Holy Spirit today, some temporary, some for decades. I agree a "missionary" can be equated with "apostle", as many missionaries have been sent around the world, establishing churches like Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, Mark. Who can number them?
As long as there is some tribe in this world needing to hear about Jesus, there is need for an apostle to go and lead them to Christ, then help them grow as a church congregation.
No prophets today? Two are coming to speak to the world, written of in Revelation 11:3-12 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
It isn't told what they prophesy or testify about. Could it include the immediate future for their hearers?
The disciples of John that Paul found, in Acts 19. They spoke with tongues and prophesied. All we know about their knowledge was they were not familiar concerning the Holy Spirit, that they carried on John the Baptist's ministry those 16 years after John. Did they tell the future? Or did they simply forth-tell spiritual insight freshly given by the Spirit? Perhaps Paul didn't learn anything new from that, but for those men that experience served as confirmation of that baptism Paul offered.
Acts 11:27-30 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
What scripture makes the ministry of prophet invalid? Where else did the Word predict that drought? Is it impossible for a modern prophet, even a Christian that doesn't yet God will use him or her as a prophet, could be used to warn other Christians of something dire to prepare for? Might our modern disbelief of that office being valid be based on disbelief of other gifts and Bible teachings that we've been taught to reject?
So there are two cases of prophetic utterances, among people not elsewhere recorded as close followers of Jesus. We know that all disciples but the 12 abandoned Jesus upon hearing him utter that about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, so those departed disciples were disqualified for another modern requirement of "apostle", not to mention "prophet", as those who had to be with Jesus from John the baptist days until the resurrection. Well, one list says John to the cross.
The Bible doesn't limit apostleship to only those who knew Jesus in the flesh and wrote scripture. Judas was an apostle, who wrote no scripture that we know of, and broke with fellowship with Jesus. In fact all the 12 abandoned Jesus, which can't be said of all who set out to follow Jesus these days. How many of the 16 apostles listed in the Bible actually contributed logos for us to read? Luke wrote two of the N.T. books. Was he an apostle? How about Mark? Apostle? I think that should help disqualify one traditional requirement of an apostle.
The Greek 'apostolols' is descriptive of, among Greeks, a delegate, ambassador, messenger of. The word was not invented by the Greeks for Christin use pertaining to Jesus. The Greek language was adopted by those who recorded the scriptures in Greek.
There are many messengers/ambassadors of the gospel commissioned by the Holy Spirit today, some temporary, some for decades. I agree a "missionary" can be equated with "apostle", as many missionaries have been sent around the world, establishing churches like Paul, Barnabus, Timothy, Mark. Who can number them?
As long as there is some tribe in this world needing to hear about Jesus, there is need for an apostle to go and lead them to Christ, then help them grow as a church congregation.
No prophets today? Two are coming to speak to the world, written of in Revelation 11:3-12 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
It isn't told what they prophesy or testify about. Could it include the immediate future for their hearers?
The disciples of John that Paul found, in Acts 19. They spoke with tongues and prophesied. All we know about their knowledge was they were not familiar concerning the Holy Spirit, that they carried on John the Baptist's ministry those 16 years after John. Did they tell the future? Or did they simply forth-tell spiritual insight freshly given by the Spirit? Perhaps Paul didn't learn anything new from that, but for those men that experience served as confirmation of that baptism Paul offered.
Acts 11:27-30 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
What scripture makes the ministry of prophet invalid? Where else did the Word predict that drought? Is it impossible for a modern prophet, even a Christian that doesn't yet God will use him or her as a prophet, could be used to warn other Christians of something dire to prepare for? Might our modern disbelief of that office being valid be based on disbelief of other gifts and Bible teachings that we've been taught to reject?
So there are two cases of prophetic utterances, among people not elsewhere recorded as close followers of Jesus. We know that all disciples but the 12 abandoned Jesus upon hearing him utter that about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, so those departed disciples were disqualified for another modern requirement of "apostle", not to mention "prophet", as those who had to be with Jesus from John the baptist days until the resurrection. Well, one list says John to the cross.
W
Answering before reading other answers. (And, in no particular order, other than how my mind works.)
1. Apostle is an eyewitness to Christ. Unless there are 2000 year old men walking about that I haven't heard of, I think the apostle time is over.
2. Prophet? I don't see a need for prophets, unless you're talking evangelists. We don't need to be reminded God's coming. He's here. We don't need to know a savior is coming. He came. It really doesn't matter if we go through tribulation, since the Great Tribulation already showed us God is still in control even when it looks bad for our side. We don't need to know when Jesus returns, because he told us we'd know it when we see him and we'll never know it's about to happen. So, the only good purpose for a prophet would be an evangelist. We still need those.
3. I don't know what you see as the difference between a pastor and a teacher. Do you come from group where they are different? I've been in several groups, but the pastor is also the teacher. There may be more teachers, but the pastor gets to do the Sunday Morning (or Saturday evening, depending on the church-building's availability) service/sermon/teaching. And, the denomination I'm most at home in has Teaching Elders and Ruling Elders. (We just call our Teaching Elders the pastors, because most folks understand that word.)
4. Our Ruling Elders are what most folks call ministers, in that's their job. They minister to the flock -- be it home visits, counseling, specific ministries (one works with homeless people, addicts, etc., another works with people with sexual sins, another works on university campuses (We have a few, since we're in a large city) for both teachers and students, and I forget what the others do, but everyone is covered.) To me, that's as big as evangelist, but I don't see how that fits into your "5 Fold Ministry" list.
5. Frankly, the last time I heard the term "5 fold ministry" was in the early 1970's, so I'm lost as to who that is and what that means. (Very dusty memory. lol) I'm kind of stuck wondering, "but what about all the other ministries?" I've got none of those gifts, but I still have gifts that minister, and I know what they're called. They're just not on your list at all.
Did that help any? It wasn't exactly what you asked, but it was as close as I can answer.
1. Apostle is an eyewitness to Christ. Unless there are 2000 year old men walking about that I haven't heard of, I think the apostle time is over.
2. Prophet? I don't see a need for prophets, unless you're talking evangelists. We don't need to be reminded God's coming. He's here. We don't need to know a savior is coming. He came. It really doesn't matter if we go through tribulation, since the Great Tribulation already showed us God is still in control even when it looks bad for our side. We don't need to know when Jesus returns, because he told us we'd know it when we see him and we'll never know it's about to happen. So, the only good purpose for a prophet would be an evangelist. We still need those.
3. I don't know what you see as the difference between a pastor and a teacher. Do you come from group where they are different? I've been in several groups, but the pastor is also the teacher. There may be more teachers, but the pastor gets to do the Sunday Morning (or Saturday evening, depending on the church-building's availability) service/sermon/teaching. And, the denomination I'm most at home in has Teaching Elders and Ruling Elders. (We just call our Teaching Elders the pastors, because most folks understand that word.)
4. Our Ruling Elders are what most folks call ministers, in that's their job. They minister to the flock -- be it home visits, counseling, specific ministries (one works with homeless people, addicts, etc., another works with people with sexual sins, another works on university campuses (We have a few, since we're in a large city) for both teachers and students, and I forget what the others do, but everyone is covered.) To me, that's as big as evangelist, but I don't see how that fits into your "5 Fold Ministry" list.
5. Frankly, the last time I heard the term "5 fold ministry" was in the early 1970's, so I'm lost as to who that is and what that means. (Very dusty memory. lol) I'm kind of stuck wondering, "but what about all the other ministries?" I've got none of those gifts, but I still have gifts that minister, and I know what they're called. They're just not on your list at all.
Did that help any? It wasn't exactly what you asked, but it was as close as I can answer.