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tsk...tsk...reeeaaalllyyy! Need I remind you oh...man of flesh?
Romans 9:15. For He saith to Moses, " I will have mercy, and I will have compassion, on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD...that sheweth mercy!
Er....sorry dude! Up to God...not you!
Romans 9:15. For He saith to Moses, " I will have mercy, and I will have compassion, on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD...that sheweth mercy!
Er....sorry dude! Up to God...not you!
tsk...tsk...reeeaaalllyyy! Need I remind you oh...man of flesh?
Romans 9:15. For He saith to Moses, " I will have mercy, and I will have compassion, on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD...that sheweth mercy!
Er....sorry dude! Up to God...not you!
Romans 9:15. For He saith to Moses, " I will have mercy, and I will have compassion, on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD...that sheweth mercy!
Er....sorry dude! Up to God...not you!
"...Be not highminded, but fear: [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. " (Romans 11:20-22).
Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):
Source Used:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS - BaptistBoard.com
- Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
- Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
- Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.
- Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
- Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.
- Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
- Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
- Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
- Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also seeMatthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)
- Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
- Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?
- Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.
- John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).
- John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
- John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
- John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?
- Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
- Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
- Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
- Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
- Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.
- Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
- 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
- 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
- Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
- Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
- Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
- Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
- Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
- Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
… so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
- Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.
- Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
- Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
- 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
- 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.
- 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
- 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
- Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
- Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
- Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
- Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
- Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
- Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
- Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
- Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
- Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
- Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
- Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
- Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
- James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.
- 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
- 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
- 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
- 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
- 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
- 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
- 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
- Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality
- Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
- Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).
- Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
- Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
- Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
- Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
- Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
- Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
- Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
- Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
Source Used:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS - BaptistBoard.com
As for John 6:39. Let's look at that verse with the surrounding verses and see what it says.
John 6:37-40
37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
First, what does Jesus mean by,
“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”
Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).
Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.
Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,
"I WILL lose nothing."
However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,
"I SHOULD lose nothing."
John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me Ishould lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
You can double check it for yourself here,
John 6 KJV
Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40
"MAY have everlasting life".
John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?
Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.
And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.
Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?
Source Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/yaho...ty.2593556.pdf
John 6:37-40
37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
First, what does Jesus mean by,
“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”
Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).
Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.
Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,
"I WILL lose nothing."
However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,
"I SHOULD lose nothing."
John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me Ishould lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
You can double check it for yourself here,
John 6 KJV
Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40
"MAY have everlasting life".
John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?
Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.
John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.
And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.
Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?
Source Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/yaho...ty.2593556.pdf
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As for John 8:29:
Jesus says He always does things that please Him. This is in context to Him obeying the will of the Father just as he that is of God hears God's words. Those who are not of God do not hear His Word.
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).
Jesus says He always does things that please Him. This is in context to Him obeying the will of the Father just as he that is of God hears God's words. Those who are not of God do not hear His Word.
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).
For the context of those who cannot be plucked out of His hand are those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him.
John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
In other words, you cannot be one of those who cannot be plucked out His hand as mentioned in verse 29 unless you are one of His sheep who actually follows Him as mentioned in verse 27. For the individuals in verse 27 is the context of who Jesus is speaking about in verse 29.
For these sheep that are in the Father's hand are not being FORCED by the shepherd here. The sheep are willingly following the shepherd. These are not sheep on leashes being dragged by their necks against their wills.
In other words, you have to be one of His sheep that follows Him in order to not be plucked out of the Father's hand. If one is behaving like the devil, then they are proving that they are not one of the Lord's sheep.
For Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit (i.e. deeds) (Matthew 7:20). Do you have good fruit or bad fruit within your life?
And Paul said,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
For salvation is not a super power. It is abiding with the One who is salvation itself (1 John 5:12); And seeing God is Holy, He will not allow anyone to abide in unrepentant sin. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
I see what you are saying in the rest of this, but can you explain how we know KJV is the correct translation? There are others that do not use should.
How does the below verse, John 8:29 relate to doing His will in not losing followers?
For the context of those who cannot be plucked out of His hand are those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him.
John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
In other words, you cannot be one of those who cannot be plucked out His hand as mentioned in verse 29 unless you are one of His sheep who actually follows Him as mentioned in verse 27. For the individuals in verse 27 is the context of who Jesus is speaking about in verse 29.
For these sheep that are in the Father's hand are not being FORCED by the shepherd here. The sheep are willingly following the shepherd. These are not sheep on leashes being dragged by their necks against their wills.
In other words, you have to be one of His sheep that follows Him in order to not be plucked out of the Father's hand. If one is behaving like the devil, then they are proving that they are not one of the Lord's sheep.
For Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit (i.e. deeds) (Matthew 7:20). Do you have good fruit or bad fruit within your life?
And Paul said,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
For salvation is not a super power. It is abiding with the One who is salvation itself (1 John 5:12); And seeing God is Holy, He will not allow anyone to abide in unrepentant sin. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Isn't the underlined part basically saying that they are not the Lord's sheep? So they are not a true believer? So if we are truly a believer we will not lose our Salvation? Our actions show that we are truly a follower of Jesus? Am I getting this correct?
1John 2:19 basically says the same thing, correct?
How does the below verse, John 8:29 relate to doing His will in not losing followers?
For the context of those who cannot be plucked out of His hand are those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him.
John 10:27-29
27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
In other words, you cannot be one of those who cannot be plucked out His hand as mentioned in verse 29 unless you are one of His sheep who actually follows Him as mentioned in verse 27. For the individuals in verse 27 is the context of who Jesus is speaking about in verse 29.
For these sheep that are in the Father's hand are not being FORCED by the shepherd here. The sheep are willingly following the shepherd. These are not sheep on leashes being dragged by their necks against their wills.
In other words, you have to be one of His sheep that follows Him in order to not be plucked out of the Father's hand. If one is behaving like the devil, then they are proving that they are not one of the Lord's sheep.
For Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit (i.e. deeds) (Matthew 7:20). Do you have good fruit or bad fruit within your life?
And Paul said,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
For salvation is not a super power. It is abiding with the One who is salvation itself (1 John 5:12); And seeing God is Holy, He will not allow anyone to abide in unrepentant sin. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
1John 2:19 basically says the same thing, correct?
Well, when we read Hebrews 13:5, we have to realize that there are other verses in the Bible that are like it, like...
Dueteronomy 31:6 that says,
Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee
Yet that same chapter that says he will not forsake them says he will forsake those who forsake him for going after other gods and doing evil.
Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deuteronomy 31:17-18).
For...
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Dueteronomy 31:6 that says,
Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee
Yet that same chapter that says he will not forsake them says he will forsake those who forsake him for going after other gods and doing evil.
Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deuteronomy 31:17-18).
For...
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.
Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord
Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?
Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.
Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.
Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,
Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me
Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
Well, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
- Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
- Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
- The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
- Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
- Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)
- Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)
- Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
- Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)
- Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)
- Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)
- Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
- The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)
- Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
- The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)
- Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
- Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
- Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)
- Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
- Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
- Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)
- The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19, 20)
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
Also, the whole.... they were never saved if they fall into sin is non sense talk. I used to be on fire for the Lord in 1992 for a time after being saved. But the ways of this world had pulled me back into it (Even though I believed Jesus was my Savior). I realized I needed to get my heart right with the Lord again because of sin and the loss of focus on God in my life. So I renewed my faith back in the Lord and repented of my sin. So I experienced it. I went thru and I know it firsthand. I know what it was like to feel lost as a believer who backslid into sin and knowing it. When I renewed my faith back in the Lord, I then knew I was saved again. James 5:19-20 talks about a believer helping another believer to repent and come back to the faith to the saving of their soul.
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1 John 2:19 is not an all inclusive statement of truth. This is talking about a select group who were merely false believers. There are others in the Bible who have forfeited their salvation. One on my list I have not provided in my previous post are the Israelites who were led out of the Red Sea (except Jacob and Caleb and their offspring). See Hebrews 3:12-19.
So why not take it somewhere else? Or better yet, just be the bigger man and walk away? You're not going to change your view, and she's not going to change hers. So why not focus on the original post, instead? Instead of committing insanity and doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
I did not answer because I honestly think you don't want to hear it. But if you are challenging me to really give you an answer and you truly want to know, then I will provide one for you here.
Okay, no doubt you believe what you do because of Ephesians 1:13-14. However, we have to ask ourselves...
What is a guarantee?
Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
So circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
Acts. 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 14:15-16
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Romans 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said,To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 6: 11-12
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers ofthem who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
Source Used:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30 | Bjorkbloggen
Okay, no doubt you believe what you do because of Ephesians 1:13-14. However, we have to ask ourselves...
What is a guarantee?
Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
So circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
Acts. 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 14:15-16
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Romans 8:9-10
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said,To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 6: 11-12
And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers ofthem who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
Source Used:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30 | Bjorkbloggen
That's what Jason does not understand. We are born again - birth is permanent - we are adopted and in the Roman-Greek culture a real child could be disowned but an adopted child could NOT be disowned because they were specifically chosen. God uses language to let us know that salvation is permanent - birth and adoption.
Jason uses a lot of OT scripture and scriptures from the gospels BEFORE the new birth - and yes in the OT they could lose their salvation, in the gospels they could lose their salvation - but we are born again of the Spirit - born again with 'seed' that is imperishable, incorruptible; we are partakers of the divine nature via the gift of holy Spirit that God has given us; we are sealed and guaranteed until the day of redemption [Eph. 1:13; 2 Cor. 1:22] and you can bet when God guarantees something it is guaranteed; We are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus [Eph. 2:6]; our citizenship is in heaven [Phil. 3:20]; we are new creatures - new creations - God created in us HIS seed, HIS nature. We are members in the body of Christ and we know that each member in the body of Christ is equally important and that one cannot work without the other [1 Cor. 12:14-26].
Jason uses a lot of OT scripture and scriptures from the gospels BEFORE the new birth - and yes in the OT they could lose their salvation, in the gospels they could lose their salvation - but we are born again of the Spirit - born again with 'seed' that is imperishable, incorruptible; we are partakers of the divine nature via the gift of holy Spirit that God has given us; we are sealed and guaranteed until the day of redemption [Eph. 1:13; 2 Cor. 1:22] and you can bet when God guarantees something it is guaranteed; We are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus [Eph. 2:6]; our citizenship is in heaven [Phil. 3:20]; we are new creatures - new creations - God created in us HIS seed, HIS nature. We are members in the body of Christ and we know that each member in the body of Christ is equally important and that one cannot work without the other [1 Cor. 12:14-26].
We have already been over this before. When a person is born.... what happens next.... are they unborn? No. They can die, though. This is what we see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The Father essentially said TWICE when his son came back that he was once dead and was alive again. In other words, if someone died in your family, you cannot spend time with them anymore like in the way you used to. They are no longer a living member of your family anymore.
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