When does the rapture occur?
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Please let's all agree to speak in love. Let's share scripture and ask Jesus to show us how to see it rightly, and pray for one another. None of us is promised tomorrow. Our world is falling apart. The enemy loves to see Gods people busied fighting over doctrine instead of praying for each other, edifying, loving, exporting, encouraging... I pray for ll of you today. May we all ask the Lord to search our hearts and see if their is any wrong way and to teach us His Word that we might become unified. Being in unity we breath His Holy Spirit to each other and the world becoming true sons of light, lord bless you all.
G
Indeed - this is one of things that is 'unique' to some of us -- we have "been there and done that"...
I, for one, have an understanding of - not only - what pre-trib folks believe - but - why they believe it -- and, to an extent - a certain amount of 'why' that they themselves do not yet understand.
You may find this hard to believe. That is okay. Anyone whose eyes are opened to the truth about the End Times Scenario regarding the 'rapture', should probably be able to see very clearly what I am talking about...
And, having seen the error of it ( i.e. - having gained a better understanding of what scripture is actually saying - whereas, I was "taking the preacher's word for it" before - until I truly "studied it out for myself"... ), I know "what it looks like" from both sides ( truth and error ).
And -- while it may seem 'proud' to those of you who are 'pre-trib' -- [ for the most part, at least ( and, I can only really speak for myself ) ] - 'post-trib' folks are only trying to get 'pre-trib' folks to "see the truth" that they themselves have been able to accomplish - by the grace of God - because their eyes have been opened to one of the most powerful lies of Satan that has ever been...
I have noticed that this lie-of-Satan 'belief system' seems to have "integrated into it" the following:
~ sheer total blindness to those passages which put forth the truth about the End Times Scenario in the most simple straight-forward blatent way
i.e. - It is far much easier to understand what Matthew 24:29-31 is saying in straight-forwardness and simplicity than to properly and accurately 'decipher' a parable that may-or-may-not be as directly related to [ something like "the rapture" ]. ( "Matthew 24:29-31 is about as 'direct' as it gets..." )
~ a quick automatic severe reactive anger towards anyone who dares to even suggest that 'pre-trib' might not be true
~ the absolute insistence of defining 'general' terms ( like 'rapture' ) in ways such that they must include any-and-all 'details' of the 'pre-trib' belief - instead of simply being defined as what the term actually means in-of-itself ( i.e., 'rapture' => "catching up" ).
This is why it is so difficult to get a 'pre-trib' person to even consider anything else -- there is a "built-in" pride that the person themselves is not even aware of that "gets in the way" of them obtaining a better understanding of the scriptures with regard to the End Times Scenario.
Until a person is willing to "swallow their pride" and "forget everything they know about the scriptures" ( or, forget everything they think they know about the scriptures ) and study the scriptures without being affected by all of the "junk" they have been taught -- they will never be able to "escape the trap" in which this lie-of-Satan has them "contained"...
I, for one, have an understanding of - not only - what pre-trib folks believe - but - why they believe it -- and, to an extent - a certain amount of 'why' that they themselves do not yet understand.
You may find this hard to believe. That is okay. Anyone whose eyes are opened to the truth about the End Times Scenario regarding the 'rapture', should probably be able to see very clearly what I am talking about...
And, having seen the error of it ( i.e. - having gained a better understanding of what scripture is actually saying - whereas, I was "taking the preacher's word for it" before - until I truly "studied it out for myself"... ), I know "what it looks like" from both sides ( truth and error ).
And -- while it may seem 'proud' to those of you who are 'pre-trib' -- [ for the most part, at least ( and, I can only really speak for myself ) ] - 'post-trib' folks are only trying to get 'pre-trib' folks to "see the truth" that they themselves have been able to accomplish - by the grace of God - because their eyes have been opened to one of the most powerful lies of Satan that has ever been...
I have noticed that this lie-of-Satan 'belief system' seems to have "integrated into it" the following:
~ sheer total blindness to those passages which put forth the truth about the End Times Scenario in the most simple straight-forward blatent way
i.e. - It is far much easier to understand what Matthew 24:29-31 is saying in straight-forwardness and simplicity than to properly and accurately 'decipher' a parable that may-or-may-not be as directly related to [ something like "the rapture" ]. ( "Matthew 24:29-31 is about as 'direct' as it gets..." )
~ a quick automatic severe reactive anger towards anyone who dares to even suggest that 'pre-trib' might not be true
~ the absolute insistence of defining 'general' terms ( like 'rapture' ) in ways such that they must include any-and-all 'details' of the 'pre-trib' belief - instead of simply being defined as what the term actually means in-of-itself ( i.e., 'rapture' => "catching up" ).
This is why it is so difficult to get a 'pre-trib' person to even consider anything else -- there is a "built-in" pride that the person themselves is not even aware of that "gets in the way" of them obtaining a better understanding of the scriptures with regard to the End Times Scenario.
Until a person is willing to "swallow their pride" and "forget everything they know about the scriptures" ( or, forget everything they think they know about the scriptures ) and study the scriptures without being affected by all of the "junk" they have been taught -- they will never be able to "escape the trap" in which this lie-of-Satan has them "contained"...
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I currently believe that:
~ Daniel 11:1-33 is past.
~ Daniel 11:34-39 is a mixture of past, present, and future.
~ Daniel 11:40-45 is future.
~ Daniel 12:1-3 is future.
~ Daniel 12:4-13 is general explanation.
"However, I am still studying..."
~ Daniel 11:1-33 is past.
~ Daniel 11:34-39 is a mixture of past, present, and future.
~ Daniel 11:40-45 is future.
~ Daniel 12:1-3 is future.
~ Daniel 12:4-13 is general explanation.
"However, I am still studying..."
who else responded to tidings from the East with great slaughter? and will give no heed to the One beloved of women who all wanted to mother the Messiah?
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I believe that the phrase "And at the time of the end" in verse 40 indicates a 'jump' forward in time.
G
I believe that "the time of Jacob's trouble" ( Jeremiah 30:7 ) is referring to Armageddon.
I do not identify Deuteronomy 28 with "the time of Jacob's trouble" - I believe the scope ( of Deuteronomy 28 ) is much broader and more general across a greater length of time ( what would now be considered the greater part of Jewish history ).
I do not identify Deuteronomy 28 with "the time of Jacob's trouble" - I believe the scope ( of Deuteronomy 28 ) is much broader and more general across a greater length of time ( what would now be considered the greater part of Jewish history ).
I believe that "the time of Jacob's trouble" ( Jeremiah 30:7 ) is referring to Armageddon.
I do not identify Deuteronomy 28 with "the time of Jacob's trouble" - I believe the scope ( of Deuteronomy 28 ) is much broader and more general across a greater length of time ( what would now be considered the greater part of Jewish history ).
I do not identify Deuteronomy 28 with "the time of Jacob's trouble" - I believe the scope ( of Deuteronomy 28 ) is much broader and more general across a greater length of time ( what would now be considered the greater part of Jewish history ).
J
O yoo jus know'd it, o'erflowin mercy whut pluggin da sink trap! I's talkin worser th'n Elduh Floyd 'n Brutha Russell combine inta hermaffrowdite Ellie White, 'n looose 'n all nayberhoods, et da doorbells wit ten pound Watchtower magzeen 'n holy granolas! I's talkin exojeeezicals o'er tha web! Exojeeezicals liken whut says dat crazee movee 'bout Jo Conrad Congo sumhow up 'n go Vietnam, dat be Epoxylips Now movee, whut says, "Mercy, da horror! Da horror!"
Revelation 20:4 (RSV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
And we understand the thrones and those seated on them, IS the representation of the Assembly that Christ has always been Building, both those from the OT time and the Church-age. The word ALSO clearly recognizes the Beheaded Saints as a separate GROUP, that is ALSO part of the ASSEMBLY, that comes along later. The First Resurrection is in PHASES, the Dead in Christ First, the Church-age Saints Second, and the Martyred Beheaded Saints Last.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
And we understand the thrones and those seated on them, IS the representation of the Assembly that Christ has always been Building, both those from the OT time and the Church-age. The word ALSO clearly recognizes the Beheaded Saints as a separate GROUP, that is ALSO part of the ASSEMBLY, that comes along later. The First Resurrection is in PHASES, the Dead in Christ First, the Church-age Saints Second, and the Martyred Beheaded Saints Last.
There is no Rapture , The word rapture is not in the bible , how we gather back to Christ is in 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 , Paul wrote the second letter because the Thessalonians mis interpreted the first letter to them hence the second letter , in first Thessalonians to meet the lord in the air CHAP 4:17 ( Then we which are (alive )and remain =(are here on earth ),shall be caught up =(gathered together )in the clouds =(crowds ) clouds is an euphemism for crowds see Romans 12:1 as Paul uses the word in a way you can understand , this is why the clouds symbolize crowds , To meet The Lord in the air , air is the spiritual body ... There is no rapture There is Mk 13 and 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 Christ has already been here in the flesh and were appointed to the flesh but once , so when He comes again, the heavenly dimension He is in now is coming with Him and no flesh or blood can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which just happens to be wherever God is . 1st Corinthians 15:51 is how you will not be in your flesh body anymore when Christ returns and note that it does not say some will be changed, it clearly indicates all shall be changed....There is no Rapture but there is plenty of God`s truth and in my bible there is no such thing as the word or event of Rapture...it is a False Teaching
All of that is part of the Great Tribulation, God's Wrath, Antichrist's slaughter of all who will not bow to him as god, the bowls, the trumpet judgements, the cosmic events, the plagues, the wars, the world getting totally rotten when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, etc., etc. ALL OF IT is THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
As for the the TIMING of the Events, you do know that Revelation is NOT written necessarily in chronological order. I cannot think of the NAME of the writing style that John used, perhaps someone can remind me. What it is, is the same as a good Newspaper Journalist uses. He gives you the Highlights or Attention grabbing events first, then he goes back over and over again filling in Details, trying to hold the readers attention until the conclusion of the article.
Yes Islam is a big part of End Time events, but so is EUROPE, RUSSIA, and CHINA. EUROPE is the revival of the Roman Empire, hence the ten toes of iron, mixed with clay. Russia is Gog and Megog. China is the Army from the East with 200,000,000 men. What is crazy, is they all are gathering in the Valley of Megiddo to make WAR against the Returning Christ. NO flash of speed as lightning flashes across the sky there. THAT IS A PLANNED MOVEMENT OF WORLD WIDE TROOPS, and THEY KNOW THE PURPOSE OF THEIR GATHERING:
Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THAT is the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and IT CANNOT BE THE SAME TIME IS THIS FOLLOWING VERSE, because it is NOT FAST, as it says the ARMIES of the Earth have TIME to GATHER to make War against HIM.
Luke 17:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For as the lightning flashes from horizon to horizon and lights up the sky, so the Son of Man will be in His day.
THAT IS THE RAPTURE or CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE TO GO TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB. Notice HE did not say KING of kings there.
As for the the TIMING of the Events, you do know that Revelation is NOT written necessarily in chronological order. I cannot think of the NAME of the writing style that John used, perhaps someone can remind me. What it is, is the same as a good Newspaper Journalist uses. He gives you the Highlights or Attention grabbing events first, then he goes back over and over again filling in Details, trying to hold the readers attention until the conclusion of the article.
Yes Islam is a big part of End Time events, but so is EUROPE, RUSSIA, and CHINA. EUROPE is the revival of the Roman Empire, hence the ten toes of iron, mixed with clay. Russia is Gog and Megog. China is the Army from the East with 200,000,000 men. What is crazy, is they all are gathering in the Valley of Megiddo to make WAR against the Returning Christ. NO flash of speed as lightning flashes across the sky there. THAT IS A PLANNED MOVEMENT OF WORLD WIDE TROOPS, and THEY KNOW THE PURPOSE OF THEIR GATHERING:
Revelation 19:11-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing on the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
THAT is the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, and IT CANNOT BE THE SAME TIME IS THIS FOLLOWING VERSE, because it is NOT FAST, as it says the ARMIES of the Earth have TIME to GATHER to make War against HIM.
Luke 17:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For as the lightning flashes from horizon to horizon and lights up the sky, so the Son of Man will be in His day.
THAT IS THE RAPTURE or CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE TO GO TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB. Notice HE did not say KING of kings there.
There is no Rapture , The word rapture is not in the bible , how we gather back to Christ is in 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 , Paul wrote the second letter because the Thessalonians mis interpreted the first letter to them hence the second letter , in first Thessalonians to meet the lord in the air CHAP 4:17 ( Then we which are (alive )and remain =(are here on earth ),shall be caught up =(gathered together )in the clouds =(crowds ) clouds is an euphemism for crowds see Romans 12:1 as Paul uses the word in a way you can understand , this is why the clouds symbolize crowds , To meet The Lord in the air , air is the spiritual body ... There is no rapture There is Mk 13 and 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 Christ has already been here in the flesh and were appointed to the flesh but once , so when He comes again, the heavenly dimension He is in now is coming with Him and no flesh or blood can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which just happens to be wherever God is . 1st Corinthians 15:51 is how you will not be in your flesh body anymore when Christ returns and note that it does not say some will be changed, it clearly indicates all shall be changed....There is no Rapture but there is plenty of God`s truth and in my bible there is no such thing as the word or event of Rapture...it is a False Teaching
The word Narthex is not in the Bible, they must not exist.
The word Pews is not in the Bible, better sit on the floor.
The word Church Steeple is not in the Bible, better knock it down.
The word BIBLE is NOT in the BIBLE, now you really are in trouble.
So we humans have a habit of NAMING THINGS, that do not have a NAME,
and that is the will of GOD:
Genesis 2:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So the LORD God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was it's name.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the sky, and to every wild animal; but for the man no helper was found as his complement.
That is part of our GOD-made nature.