When does the rapture occur?

[valiant]

So "all Israel" is all true Israel, those in Jesus Christ.

And when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, that will likewise be the fullness of the true Israel to come in, for all will be in Jesus Christ, the one people of God?

Yes, 'all Israel' is all who have been saved through the power of God and the blood of Jesus, both Old Testament and New. It includes the election of Israel (the remnant), and all Gentile proselytes who by responding to the Messiah have become members of the true Israel (Rom 11.12-24; 1 Pet 2.9). They will be the New Jerusalem.

The fullness of the Gentiles (all Gentiles who have responded to the Messiah) are a definite part of 'all Israel'

 

[valiant]

NO, you trivialize the GREAT TRIBULATION, when you put it that way. Our understanding, is the Slaughtering of Jews and Christians will be at least ten times more than were slaughtered in WWII. THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

actually it is described as 'great tribulation'. There is no definite article. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21 you will find that Luke defines 'great tribulation' in Matthew as it was coming on the Jews.

20 ¶ But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[valiant]

There is no Rapture , The word rapture is not in the bible , how we gather back to Christ is in 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 , Paul wrote the second letter because the Thessalonians mis interpreted the first letter to them hence the second letter , in first Thessalonians to meet the lord in the air CHAP 4:17 ( Then we which are (alive )and remain =(are here on earth ),shall be caught up =(gathered together )in the clouds =(crowds ) clouds is an euphemism for crowds see Romans 12:1 as Paul uses the word in a way you can understand , this is why the clouds symbolize crowds , To meet The Lord in the air , air is the spiritual body ... There is no rapture There is Mk 13 and 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 Christ has already been here in the flesh and were appointed to the flesh but once , so when He comes again, the heavenly dimension He is in now is coming with Him and no flesh or blood can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which just happens to be wherever God is . 1st Corinthians 15:51 is how you will not be in your flesh body anymore when Christ returns and note that it does not say some will be changed, it clearly indicates all shall be changed....There is no Rapture but there is plenty of God`s truth and in my bible there is no such thing as the word or event of Rapture...it is a False Teaching

Well rapture is not in the English versions, but it is in the Latin version. I prefer to take the Scriptures as meaning what they say when there is no reason to think otherwise. The snatching away is the necessary transformation of the living saints so that they can partake with the resurrected saints. 'One shall be taken and the other left'. The point is that they will no longer have any connection with this earth.

 

[PlainWord]

Indeed - this is one of things that is 'unique' to some of us -- we have "been there and done that"...

I, for one, have an understanding of - not only - what pre-trib folks believe - but - why they believe it -- and, to an extent - a certain amount of 'why' that they themselves do not yet understand.

You may find this hard to believe. That is okay. Anyone whose eyes are opened to the truth about the End Times Scenario regarding the 'rapture', should probably be able to see very clearly what I am talking about...

And, having seen the error of it ( i.e. - having gained a better understanding of what scripture is actually saying - whereas, I was "taking the preacher's word for it" before - until I truly "studied it out for myself"... ), I know "what it looks like" from both sides ( truth and error ).

And -- while it may seem 'proud' to those of you who are 'pre-trib' -- [ for the most part, at least ( and, I can only really speak for myself ) ] - 'post-trib' folks are only trying to get 'pre-trib' folks to "see the truth" that they themselves have been able to accomplish - by the grace of God - because their eyes have been opened to one of the most powerful lies of Satan that has ever been...

I have noticed that this lie-of-Satan 'belief system' seems to have "integrated into it" the following:

~ sheer total blindness to those passages which put forth the truth about the End Times Scenario in the most simple straight-forward blatent way

i.e. - It is far much easier to understand what Matthew 24:29-31 is saying in straight-forwardness and simplicity than to properly and accurately 'decipher' a parable that may-or-may-not be as directly related to [ something like "the rapture" ]. ( "Matthew 24:29-31 is about as 'direct' as it gets..." )

~ a quick automatic severe reactive anger towards anyone who dares to even suggest that 'pre-trib' might not be true

~ the absolute insistence of defining 'general' terms ( like 'rapture' ) in ways such that they must include any-and-all 'details' of the 'pre-trib' belief - instead of simply being defined as what the term actually means in-of-itself ( i.e., 'rapture' => "catching up" ).

This is why it is so difficult to get a 'pre-trib' person to even consider anything else -- there is a "built-in" pride that the person themselves is not even aware of that "gets in the way" of them obtaining a better understanding of the scriptures with regard to the End Times Scenario.

Until a person is willing to "swallow their pride" and "forget everything they know about the scriptures" ( or, forget everything they think they know about the scriptures ) and study the scriptures without being affected by all of the "junk" they have been taught -- they will never be able to "escape the trap" in which this lie-of-Satan has them "contained"...

Yes, very well stated. All the warnings on this issue from the scriptures are being ignored. A new "fly away" doctrine has infiltrated the church causing many to become silent and complacent into thinking, "these warnings aren't for me, I am going to fly away. These warnings are for the Tribulation Era Saints - the Left Behinds who didn't make the cut." It's always for someone else, never for me. Let some other Christian die for their faith, having to choose between God and life. Let some other Christian be thrown in jail, starved and beaten.

History repeats over and over.

 

[PlainWord]

Revelation 20:4 (RSV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And we understand the thrones and those seated on them, IS the representation of the Assembly that Christ has always been Building, both those from the OT time and the Church-age. The word ALSO clearly recognizes the Beheaded Saints as a separate GROUP, that is ALSO part of the ASSEMBLY, that comes along later. The First Resurrection is in PHASES, the Dead in Christ First, the Church-age Saints Second, and the Martyred Beheaded Saints Last.

No, this is your twisting of the Word to fit your view. There are no parts or phases of the resurrection. Paul's teaching is consistent with all teaching on the resurrection. There is Christ (and his sacrifice puts to "death" all confessed sins) then there are those of us who are Christ's at His Coming. Paul only mentions one coming, not two. Christ is the "firstfruits" of those who sleep.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...

The order is clear: Christ, then those who are Christ's at His Coming. Then comes then end. It doesn't say, "then comes the Tribulation, then another return of Christ with a resurrection of those beheaded in a Part B resurrection."

 

[PlainWord]

NO, you trivialize the GREAT TRIBULATION, when you put it that way. Our understanding, is the Slaughtering of Jews and Christians will be at least ten times more than were slaughtered in WWII. THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

I totally agree with you on this entire post!! Christians have to be here to be slaughtered. There is no concept of a great revival during the Tribulation. Instead, we have a falling away taught. Doesn't that bother you??

 

[popeye]

There is no Rapture , The word rapture is not in the bible , how we gather back to Christ is in 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 , Paul wrote the second letter because the Thessalonians mis interpreted the first letter to them hence the second letter , in first Thessalonians to meet the lord in the air CHAP 4:17 ( Then we which are (alive )and remain =(are here on earth ),shall be caught up =(gathered together )in the clouds =(crowds ) clouds is an euphemism for crowds see Romans 12:1 as Paul uses the word in a way you can understand , this is why the clouds symbolize crowds , To meet The Lord in the air , air is the spiritual body ... There is no rapture There is Mk 13 and 2nd Thessalonians chap 2 Christ has already been here in the flesh and were appointed to the flesh but once , so when He comes again, the heavenly dimension He is in now is coming with Him and no flesh or blood can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which just happens to be wherever God is . 1st Corinthians 15:51 is how you will not be in your flesh body anymore when Christ returns and note that it does not say some will be changed, it clearly indicates all shall be changed....There is no Rapture but there is plenty of God`s truth and in my bible there is no such thing as the word or event of Rapture...it is a False Teaching

Your teaching is false.You literally made that scenario up.

 

[popeye]

O yoo jus know'd it, o'erflowin mercy whut pluggin da sink trap! I's talkin worser th'n Elduh Floyd 'n Brutha Russell combine inta hermaffrowdite Ellie White, 'n looose 'n all nayberhoods, et da doorbells wit ten pound Watchtower magzeen 'n holy granolas! I's talkin exojeeezicals o'er tha web! Exojeeezicals liken whut says dat crazee movee 'bout Jo Conrad Congo sumhow up 'n go Vietnam, dat be Epoxylips Now movee, whut says, "Mercy, da horror! Da horror!"

Yooo hooo,waz dat I smells cooking buckwheat?

 

[PlainWord]

All of that is part of the Great Tribulation, God's Wrath, Antichrist's slaughter of all who will not bow to him as god, the bowls, the trumpet judgements, the cosmic events, the plagues, the wars, the world getting totally rotten when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, etc., etc. ALL OF IT is THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

As for the the TIMING of the Events, you do know that Revelation is NOT written necessarily in chronological order. I cannot think of the NAME of the writing style that John used, perhaps someone can remind me. What it is, is the same as a good Newspaper Journalist uses. He gives you the Highlights or Attention grabbing events first, then he goes back over and over again filling in Details, trying to hold the readers attention until the conclusion of the article.

Yes Islam is a big part of End Time events, but so is EUROPE, RUSSIA, and CHINA. EUROPE is the revival of the Roman Empire, hence the ten toes of iron, mixed with clay. Russia is Gog and Megog. China is the Army from the East with 200,000,000 men. What is crazy, is they all are gathering in the Valley of Megiddo to make WAR against the Returning Christ. NO flash of speed as lightning flashes across the sky there. THAT IS A PLANNED MOVEMENT OF WORLD WIDE TROOPS, and THEY KNOW THE PURPOSE OF THEIR GATHERING:

TRUNCATED>

THAT IS THE RAPTURE or CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE TO GO TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB. Notice HE did not say KING of kings there.

VCO, with utmost love and respect, I would like to suggest that your view of the Tribulation is not 100% accurate. The Great Trib does not include God's Wrath or the bowls and possibly not the Trumpets. However, it does include the "A/C" and the slaughter of those who will not bow. This distinction is very important. Because we are not appointed to God's Wrath many think we must be raptured before then. Since many think God's wrath is a big part of the Great Trib, then they jump to the conclusion that we must be raptured before the Great Trib.

The fact is only Satan's evil makes up the Great Trib. God's wrath comes after the Great Trib and is in response to it. God's wrath is associated with the Second (and only) Return of Christ. If you study all the events which Christ discusses between Mat 24:21-29 you will not see anything about God's Wrath. It is all evil. Jesus provides the starting point and ending point of the Great Trib.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Please read the above carefully. No wrath of God, only evil. Notice those days (tribulation) have to be shortened, specifically for the ELECT otherwise Satan will kill them all.

As for the Wrath, we have several passages which locate it at the Return of Christ including here in 2 Thes 1:

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

This reveal is AFTER the Tribulation. Nothing in Revelation locates the start or finish of the Great Trib. It is a false assumption to think all 7 of each; Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are part of it. God's wrath will be bigger and more intense against the wicked than anything the wicked has done to God's People. Thus God's Victory gets more play in Revelation than Satan's Tribulation.

 

[RickyZ]

Indeed - this is one of things that is 'unique' to some of us -- we have "been there and done that"...

I, for one, have an understanding of - not only - what pre-trib folks believe - but - why they believe it -- and, to an extent - a certain amount of 'why' that they themselves do not yet understand.

You may find this hard to believe. That is okay. Anyone whose eyes are opened to the truth about the End Times Scenario regarding the 'rapture', should probably be able to see very clearly what I am talking about...

And, having seen the error of it ( i.e. - having gained a better understanding of what scripture is actually saying - whereas, I was "taking the preacher's word for it" before - until I truly "studied it out for myself"... ), I know "what it looks like" from both sides ( truth and error ).

And -- while it may seem 'proud' to those of you who are 'pre-trib' -- [ for the most part, at least ( and, I can only really speak for myself ) ] - 'post-trib' folks are only trying to get 'pre-trib' folks to "see the truth" that they themselves have been able to accomplish - by the grace of God - because their eyes have been opened to one of the most powerful lies of Satan that has ever been...

I have noticed that this lie-of-Satan 'belief system' seems to have "integrated into it" the following:

~ sheer total blindness to those passages which put forth the truth about the End Times Scenario in the most simple straight-forward blatent way

i.e. - It is far much easier to understand what Matthew 24:29-31 is saying in straight-forwardness and simplicity than to properly and accurately 'decipher' a parable that may-or-may-not be as directly related to [ something like "the rapture" ]. ( "Matthew 24:29-31 is about as 'direct' as it gets..." )

~ a quick automatic severe reactive anger towards anyone who dares to even suggest that 'pre-trib' might not be true

~ the absolute insistence of defining 'general' terms ( like 'rapture' ) in ways such that they must include any-and-all 'details' of the 'pre-trib' belief - instead of simply being defined as what the term actually means in-of-itself ( i.e., 'rapture' => "catching up" ).

This is why it is so difficult to get a 'pre-trib' person to even consider anything else -- there is a "built-in" pride that the person themselves is not even aware of that "gets in the way" of them obtaining a better understanding of the scriptures with regard to the End Times Scenario.

Until a person is willing to "swallow their pride" and "forget everything they know about the scriptures" ( or, forget everything they think they know about the scriptures ) and study the scriptures without being affected by all of the "junk" they have been taught -- they will never be able to "escape the trap" in which this lie-of-Satan has them "contained"...

What I see as the problem in the pre-trib camp is a lack of preparedness. God warned Noah about the time he was facing and gave Noah a way to prepare for and survive it. God gave us warning about the time to come, yet those who don't believe it are not going to prepare for it... bringing their survival into question. These people are going to be the seed among the rocks, who will turn away a la Matthew 24:10 when they find themselves subjected to things they didn't believe they'd see. That is the greatest tragedy of the pre-trib camp, and quite possibly exactly what satan had in mind when he spread that particular lie.

 

[SilverFanng]

There is no rapture as people have described it. The "rapture" in actuality, after looking at the context clues, is the first resurrection, that occurs AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE the millenial rule of Christ.

It is written that it shall take place after the LAST TRUMPET in revelation it says that Christ returns after the seventh, the last, trumpet. This must be so because only those who were sealed after the sixth seal were resurrected at this time. Those who are sealed and still alive are given new bodies, their old bodies are destroyed, hence they too are resurrected.

It also has to be this way because the Antichrist will arise from within the church. Don't believe me? He has to enter the temple of God and set up the abomination which causes desolation and end all sacrifices. It is written that those who follow Christ ARE the temple of God. The end of sacrifices means no more people will be redeemed when he shows up declaring to be Christ. He will lead everyone away from God and only true Christians who were redeemed before he made his declaration will be redeemed, the only redeemed ones on earth. The 144,000 and the great multitude.

 

[VCO]

actually it is described as 'great tribulation'. There is no definite article. If you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 21 you will find that Luke defines 'great tribulation' in Matthew as it was coming on the Jews.

20 ¶ But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

YES, in 70th Week of Daniel, AFTER the Church-age; also known as the time of Jacob's trouble, Jer. 30:7-11.

 

[VCO]

VCO, with utmost love and respect, I would like to suggest that your view of the Tribulation is not 100% accurate. The Great Trib does not include God's Wrath or the bowls and possibly not the Trumpets. However, it does include the "A/C" and the slaughter of those who will not bow. This distinction is very important. Because we are not appointed to God's Wrath many think we must be raptured before then. Since many think God's wrath is a big part of the Great Trib, then they jump to the conclusion that we must be raptured before the Great Trib.

The fact is only Satan's evil makes up the Great Trib. God's wrath comes after the Great Trib and is in response to it. God's wrath is associated with the Second (and only) Return of Christ. If you study all the events which Christ discusses between Mat 24:21-29 you will not see anything about God's Wrath. It is all evil. Jesus provides the starting point and ending point of the Great Trib.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Please read the above carefully. No wrath of God, only evil. Notice those days (tribulation) have to be shortened, specifically for the ELECT otherwise Satan will kill them all.

As for the Wrath, we have several passages which locate it at the Return of Christ including here in 2 Thes 1:

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

This reveal is AFTER the Tribulation. Nothing in Revelation locates the start or finish of the Great Trib. It is a false assumption to think all 7 of each; Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are part of it. God's wrath will be bigger and more intense against the wicked than anything the wicked has done to God's People. Thus God's Victory gets more play in Revelation than Satan's Tribulation.

There are Many tribulations that mankind must face especially in the end times, but there is one GREATER that all the rest prior to it. The End Times period involves much more that the Seven Years of Antichrist's reign, and I believe the Great Tribulation is the entire 7 years, while many believe it is only the last half of those 7 years, when Antichrist takes over the Temple, demanding to be worshiped. Either way the wars and rumors of wars that lead up to all this, are also tribulation, but not the Great Tribulation.

As for the "Look, He is in the inner rooms!", that is what the JWs claim. They believe He vaporized his body and returned already spiritually, indwelling the inner rooms of the Watchtower Publishing house.

 

[popeye]

What I see as the problem in the pre-trib camp is a lack of preparedness. God warned Noah about the time he was facing and gave Noah a way to prepare for and survive it. God gave us warning about the time to come, yet those who don't believe it are not going to prepare for it... bringing their survival into question. These people are going to be the seed among the rocks, who will turn away a la Matthew 24:10 when they find themselves subjected to things they didn't believe they'd see. That is the greatest tragedy of the pre-trib camp, and quite possibly exactly what satan had in mind when he spread that particular lie.

.......when actually the watching and waiting for jesus is in fact the correct 'preparedness.'

Show me the doomsday satan is on your heels evidence here;
Mat 25;5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Or here;
1 thes 4;16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

BTW,what are you doing "to prepare" that is so wise? What exactly makes you "prepared" for the AC?
A dotted line on your neck?

 

[popeye]

There is no rapture as people have described it. The "rapture" in actuality, after looking at the context clues, is the first resurrection, that occurs AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE the millenial rule of Christ.

It is written that it shall take place after the LAST TRUMPET in revelation it says that Christ returns after the seventh, the last, trumpet. This must be so because only those who were sealed after the sixth seal were resurrected at this time. Those who are sealed and still alive are given new bodies, their old bodies are destroyed, hence they too are resurrected.

It also has to be this way because the Antichrist will arise from within the church. Don't believe me? He has to enter the temple of God and set up the abomination which causes desolation and end all sacrifices. It is written that those who follow Christ ARE the temple of God. The end of sacrifices means no more people will be redeemed when he shows up declaring to be Christ. He will lead everyone away from God and only true Christians who were redeemed before he made his declaration will be redeemed, the only redeemed ones on earth. The 144,000 and the great multitude.

1) The rapture is in fact the groom gathering the bride.not an abstract 1st resurrection.

2) the GT is Jacobs trouble.The time of the gentiles fufilled and God begins dealing w/his covenant pple israel

3)The church is in heaven during the GT.

Your model is a partial research as is all postrib models. We (pretrib) own the endtimes verses.You guys can only watch as we inform you and do the due diligence of the berean.

 

[VCO]

Well rapture is not in the English versions, but it is in the Latin version. I prefer to take the Scriptures as meaning what they say when there is no reason to think otherwise. The snatching away is the necessary transformation of the living saints so that they can partake with the resurrected saints. 'One shall be taken and the other left'. The point is that they will no longer have any connection with this earth.

And we believe that we live in the New City Jerusalem in Heaven, while traveling back and forth throughout the Thousand YEAR Earthly Kingdom, to perform our teaching duties as Priests. We will probably be teaching the children of the 144,000 to appreciate all of what the LORD has Provided them. How do we get back and forth, perhaps that is what the story of Jacob's Ladder is pointing out, GOD has provided a way. The New City Jerusalem is to be lowered through the New Heaven (Atmosphere) and to the New Earth, after HIS thousand year Earthy Kingdom is complete. No, I am not trying to push my beliefs on you, but we shall see, won't we.

 

[VCO]

.......when actually the watching and waiting for jesus is in fact the correct 'preparedness.'

Show me the doomsday satan is on your heels evidence here;
Mat 25;5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Or here;
1 thes 4;16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

BTW,what are you doing "to prepare" that is so wise? What exactly makes you "prepared" for the AC?
A dotted line on your neck?

If you think about it, a LOT of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib believers must think they do not even have to get ready, until the Antichrist signs the Seven Year Peace Treaty, Live on the International NEWS. Where we Pre-Trib believers have to KEEP READY ALL THE TIME.

Matthew 25:13 (ISV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]"So keep on watching, because you don't know the day or the hour."

 

[RickyZ]

.......when actually the watching and waiting for jesus is in fact the correct 'preparedness.'

Show me the doomsday satan is on your heels evidence here;
Mat 25;5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Or here;
1 thes 4;16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

BTW,what are you doing "to prepare" that is so wise? What exactly makes you "prepared" for the AC?
A dotted line on your neck?

Well, first of all I'm trying to share the love of Christ... something I see very lacking here. Really don't care for the pissy attitude, trying to get rid of one actually. Are you? Must be 'cause you're giving one to me.

We've stored food, water and medical supplies, not just for us but for the neighborhood... we've responded in faith to God's call to leave the cities of our birth and go into the wilderness... we're preparing mentally and even more importantly spiritually for the days ahead... and we're trying to educate (IN LOVE) people who some day are going to show up at the market and have to decide to turn away empty handed or take the chip/tattoo/mark.

How hungry are you going to let yourself get before you cave?

 

[SilverFanng]

1) The rapture is in fact the groom gathering the bride.not an abstract 1st resurrection.

2) the GT is Jacobs trouble.The time of the gentiles fufilled and God begins dealing w/his covenant pple israel

3)The church is in heaven during the GT.

Your model is a partial research as is all postrib models. We (pretrib) own the endtimes verses.You guys can only watch as we inform you and do the due diligence of the berean.

First of all the 1st and second resurrections aren't abstract. They are biblical. Do some simple research on the revelation of John and you will see that Christ told him this specifically.

Second, the time of Jacob's trouble refers to ALL israelites. Not just the Jews whose ancestry we can confirm. The Israelites from the northern kingdom of israel went on to found many mighty nations and became vastly numerous today fulfilling God's promise to Abraham.

Third, the two witnesses AND the 144,000 sealed israelites are to be on earth in the midst of Jacob's troubles. Heck, the two witnesses CAUSE a lot of those deaths just by stopping the rain. And I am certain they all must be redeemed.

Not to mention that if you listed every single verse ANYONE who believes in a rapture uses I can prove they don't mean what you think they do.

Caught up in the clouds, for example, could mean many things. Like standing on a mountaintop. Or maybe even death. In order to get a new body you still have to die. "For it is appointed unto men to die once."

Before you claim to know anything about God's ways you must first unlearn the ways of the world and let God teach you his ways.

 

[SilverFanng]

In response to those who claim to be preparing, I respect the courage and strength it must take to do so. Personally I believe that I won't be able to to prepare enough food in time. God has called me to help guide people through the chaos of the sixth seal opening: the eruption of yellowstone. The country will be made uninhabitable. We will have to leave or live in a wasteland with no sun or clean water. Just saying, be ready to leave.