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The one verse of the bible I have trouble accepting
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I counted with my daughter.....When she was doing a no no.....I would say 1.....pause to give her a chance to stop what she was doing....she learned quick to usually comply with number 1, however, if she continued I would give her the benefit of the doubt and then say a little louder 2.....pause by then she would usually stop it.....however, if she continued then I took action meaning if she were in danger I moved her away from it or swatted her hand or her butt.......then I would say 3.
We only ever had a 3 count.... one and two were the warning and instruction on my part for her to stop or get away from whatever was the no no.... but if she heard 3 the action had already taken place.....It worked well.
Of course if she were in an immediate real danger action came with no counts....as in saving her from that danger but a talking to would occur as well.....
My daughter is 35 now and very responsible adult who also believes children should be disciplined, but has elected not to have children of her own....she may possibly think that they are too much trouble to deal with I can't really answer for her....
Discipline does not require spanking every single time, but she did push her limit and had a few even with the counting system....
We only ever had a 3 count.... one and two were the warning and instruction on my part for her to stop or get away from whatever was the no no.... but if she heard 3 the action had already taken place.....It worked well.
Of course if she were in an immediate real danger action came with no counts....as in saving her from that danger but a talking to would occur as well.....
My daughter is 35 now and very responsible adult who also believes children should be disciplined, but has elected not to have children of her own....she may possibly think that they are too much trouble to deal with I can't really answer for her....
Discipline does not require spanking every single time, but she did push her limit and had a few even with the counting system....
Amen brother Marc, well said!
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MarcR again."
If your child runs out into the street and you say do not do that it is very dangerous and then 5min later once again your child runs out into the street , you swat their bottom and say you can not do that a big car could come by and kill you and mommy would not be able to live without you. Discipline done in love is what God has commanded.
Here's the ultimate deal: Parenting is challenging. It requires a huge amount of sacrifice. It needs repeated, daily attention and nurturing. It demands self-reflection about your own modeling and hypocritical behavior. It takes lots of energy. It cannot be done in five easy steps, with some miracle maneuver, or some formulaic approach. There's no easy way out.
If you don't want to spank your child as a form of correction, then don't. Plenty of parents opt out of spanking children for a variety of philosophical reasons.
To make my philosophy transparent: There is lots of evidence in sociological and psychological literature that indicates that spanking is non-productive and often destructive as a means of correcting a child.
Of course, people will anecdotally say things like, "Well, I was spanked as a child and I turned out okay." Ummm...the vast majority of violent offenders in prison report that they were spanked as children too. So, apparently, spanking isn't some kind of magical, cure-all for poor the poor choices that people make.
But here's the deal:
God WILL hold parents accountable for training and correcting their children. So, if someone decides that they will not to use spanking, that doesn't excuse them from offering their child limits, helping them learn self-control, teaching them to moderate their emotions, etc. There are plenty of methods available to parents for guiding and correcting children. A good parent employs a variety of methods to redirect--everything from "the look," to a discussion, losing privileges/possession for a period, etc.
Most of the issues that kids deal with come NOT from a lack of spanking, but from a lack consistent, patient, loving discipline. It takes time to remind a child that "we don't talk to people that way," over and over and over until they finally realize it. Talk to parents, when a child is grounded, it's as much a punishment for the parent as the child. They have do deal with the sulky looks, the begging for reprieve, the diligence of making sure that their child doesn't "cheat" on the grounding. Many parents are so over-extended that they give in and don't maintain strong boundaries.
Honestly, spanking is over and done with very quickly. Most older children prefer it to other forms of discipline (just ask them). Heck, if someone told me now, "Either I can slap your face five times, or I can take your car for a week?" I'd totally choose the slaps. If spanking is your "go to" method, there's nowhere really to go--you either have to spank more, spank harder, or use larger objects.
If you don't want to spank your child as a form of correction, then don't. Plenty of parents opt out of spanking children for a variety of philosophical reasons.
To make my philosophy transparent: There is lots of evidence in sociological and psychological literature that indicates that spanking is non-productive and often destructive as a means of correcting a child.
Of course, people will anecdotally say things like, "Well, I was spanked as a child and I turned out okay." Ummm...the vast majority of violent offenders in prison report that they were spanked as children too. So, apparently, spanking isn't some kind of magical, cure-all for poor the poor choices that people make.
But here's the deal:
God WILL hold parents accountable for training and correcting their children. So, if someone decides that they will not to use spanking, that doesn't excuse them from offering their child limits, helping them learn self-control, teaching them to moderate their emotions, etc. There are plenty of methods available to parents for guiding and correcting children. A good parent employs a variety of methods to redirect--everything from "the look," to a discussion, losing privileges/possession for a period, etc.
Most of the issues that kids deal with come NOT from a lack of spanking, but from a lack consistent, patient, loving discipline. It takes time to remind a child that "we don't talk to people that way," over and over and over until they finally realize it. Talk to parents, when a child is grounded, it's as much a punishment for the parent as the child. They have do deal with the sulky looks, the begging for reprieve, the diligence of making sure that their child doesn't "cheat" on the grounding. Many parents are so over-extended that they give in and don't maintain strong boundaries.
Honestly, spanking is over and done with very quickly. Most older children prefer it to other forms of discipline (just ask them). Heck, if someone told me now, "Either I can slap your face five times, or I can take your car for a week?" I'd totally choose the slaps. If spanking is your "go to" method, there's nowhere really to go--you either have to spank more, spank harder, or use larger objects.
G
Galahad
Guest
Better to have him/her cry from parental discipline and guidance than from an arrest, a charge, and a conviction.
J
john91
Guest
Everyone on this post is being harsh she has a beautiful soul don't get all work up because she does not think "I am going to hit my kids one day" if she feels more conformable with her husband being the lead disciplinary I see no problem with that
hmm...tough situation...I can see where you are coming from because I have a friend who has a rough relationship with her dad because he spanked her as a child. I don't know how you can spank a child and get across the message of a loving father figure in heaven. My friend also has a lot of issues with God. She's a Christian but she views him as more of a tyrant. That could be due to the spanking but it could also be due to her church...
Anyway I like the way my brother handles things with his kids. He disciplines them but never physically and they are growing up to be very well mannered.
So I don't think that verse means to beat your child senseless and I don't think it means to spank your child either. Every family situation is different so if you feel that it would harm your child more to spank them then don't do it. Find some other age-appropriate punishment. I think that verse is geared more towards parents who don't discipline their children at all and let them run around like wild people.
I hope this helps.
THAT'S NOT A BAD THING!!!!!! OH MY DON'T EVER THINK THAT'S A BAD THING!! My parents were very short tempered and that really hurt our relationship. My brother and sister-in-law are sooo patient with my nephews but they still discipline them without yelling and screaming. Don't forget, God is patient too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kn6Z2Mop5I
I feel like this song gets across the point that patience is a good thing. A VERY GOOD THING!! I know it's a little off topic but the line that is soooo important "remember remember that God is patient too!" don't ever forget that!! *hug*
G
Galahad
Guest
Everyone being harsh? No sir. I presented something for her to think about. And I was sincere. So quit being harsh about my reply. "Better to have him/her cry from parental discipline and guidance than from an arrest, a charge, and a conviction."
The verse in question has in mind that the father was the head of the family and responsible for the discipline of the family when there was little outside influence except custom. He had to exercise control and be both judge and executioner. He was the sole source of discipline (no schoolteachers, etc). The son in mind would be an adult son. There were no police. And the people around would be rough and ready and often encouraging young men into evil ways. It is not talking about spanking or birching little children.
I have had three children and have not had to beat any of them. They have grown up well behaved and responsible. But I was assisted by school teachers and 'fear' of the police, and by the fact that my standards were mainly shared by my neighbours. Thus it was in a wholly different environment. At that time we did not know of the 'naughty step' which my son uses with my granddaughters (3 and 5).
But I do recognise that I was fortunate and that some other children had to be disciplined more firmly. Some have a 'bad streak' in them. In those cases firmer discipline is needed. But it must always be done in love and with a genuine desire for their good. We should be able to say honestly, 'this hurts me more than it hurts you'. It should always be controlled.
When you have children you may find it easier to discipline them because you love them and want their good. But don't feel you have to be a brute. And in a society where manners and behaviour are considered important you are half way there. Physical punishment is rarely necessary except for the few.
I have had three children and have not had to beat any of them. They have grown up well behaved and responsible. But I was assisted by school teachers and 'fear' of the police, and by the fact that my standards were mainly shared by my neighbours. Thus it was in a wholly different environment. At that time we did not know of the 'naughty step' which my son uses with my granddaughters (3 and 5).
But I do recognise that I was fortunate and that some other children had to be disciplined more firmly. Some have a 'bad streak' in them. In those cases firmer discipline is needed. But it must always be done in love and with a genuine desire for their good. We should be able to say honestly, 'this hurts me more than it hurts you'. It should always be controlled.
When you have children you may find it easier to discipline them because you love them and want their good. But don't feel you have to be a brute. And in a society where manners and behaviour are considered important you are half way there. Physical punishment is rarely necessary except for the few.
R
RachelBibleStudent
Guest
the 'rod' in the bible is not necessarily for hitting anything...a rod was a symbol of authority in general...for example aaron the high priest had a rod...and it was obviously not for hitting eleazar and ithamar when they got out of line... there is also the line in psalm 23 about the rod and staff being a source of comfort...which likewise fits the picture of the rod as a symbol of authority instead of a physical punishment...
basically in the bible to punish someone with a rod meant to use your authority to punish them...the appropriate means of punishment was not specified...
i also want to add that i always find it odd that lots of christians will say 'i was spanked as a child and i turned out perfectly fine'...but then you hear those same people give their testimonies about how they used to be raging drug addicts or whatever before they found jesus...
basically in the bible to punish someone with a rod meant to use your authority to punish them...the appropriate means of punishment was not specified...
i also want to add that i always find it odd that lots of christians will say 'i was spanked as a child and i turned out perfectly fine'...but then you hear those same people give their testimonies about how they used to be raging drug addicts or whatever before they found jesus...
I personally do not like to spank children,and I have never did it,for I feel bad for them,but according to God it is neccessary to keep them on the right path of doing right,which is better for them to be spanked and do right,than to not be spanked and do wrong.
That is the only way some children will learn is if they are spanked,for children are like everybody else trying to assert their authority,and what they can get away with,and if they are not spanked they will be unruly because they do not have fear.
Some people take it too far when physically disciplining their children.It does not mean snatching them up for everything thing they do wrong and spanking them.
Proverb:26:3: A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
The Bible says a rod for a fool's back.A fool is someone who is told again and again not to do something,and they still do it,so the only way to correct them is to physically discipline them,but do that in the correct measure.
A fool is someone who will keep doing the same thing over and over,even when you tell them to not do it.That is why God said do not call someone a fool,for you will be in danger of hellfire,because you are saying that the person is incapable of learning to do right,as if condemning them,as a cutdown,when how do you know they will not learn some day.
But of course some people will call someone a fool,but it may not have the same implications as in the Bible,for they might mean fool for a certain act they did,like calling them an idiot,and not saying that their entire character is an idiot.
Proverb:23:13: Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverb:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
God said that if you do discipline your child physically,he will not die,and you will deliver his soul from hell.God is saying it is not bad,for while it may hurt a bit,you will keep him on the right path,that will continue to him doing right when he is older,and because of that more likely to be with God.
Eph:6:1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph:6:2: Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)
Eph:6:3: That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
God said that children honoring their father and mother is the first commandment with promise,because if they will obey the authority of their parents,they are more likely to obey the authority of God.
A rod for a fool's back,not snatching them up for every little thing they do wrong and spanking them,for if children learn to obey their parent's authority,they are more likely to obey God's authority.
Everyone that I heard that talked about how they were spanked back in the day did not have a problem with it,but appreciated what their parents did,as long as it was not abuse.
Notice how today since it is taboo to spank children,that children are more unruly and outspoken towards their parents,and do not follow God correctly,if follow Him at all.
So what is better,to not spank your children if they will not listen time after time,and have them be lost without God,or to spank them so they learn to obey authority and have a better chance of being right with God.
But I believe that the physical discipline would apply more to children of an older age,for they should know better,like if two people in the military get busted for the same thing,one being a corporal,and one being a captain,the captain will take the harder fall,for he should know better than the young military man.
God looks at physical discipline as a way to keep children right,so they learn to obey the authority of their parents,which is the first commandment with promise,and God said,they will not die,and you will deliver their soul from hell.
That is the only way some children will learn is if they are spanked,for children are like everybody else trying to assert their authority,and what they can get away with,and if they are not spanked they will be unruly because they do not have fear.
Some people take it too far when physically disciplining their children.It does not mean snatching them up for everything thing they do wrong and spanking them.
Proverb:26:3: A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
The Bible says a rod for a fool's back.A fool is someone who is told again and again not to do something,and they still do it,so the only way to correct them is to physically discipline them,but do that in the correct measure.
A fool is someone who will keep doing the same thing over and over,even when you tell them to not do it.That is why God said do not call someone a fool,for you will be in danger of hellfire,because you are saying that the person is incapable of learning to do right,as if condemning them,as a cutdown,when how do you know they will not learn some day.
But of course some people will call someone a fool,but it may not have the same implications as in the Bible,for they might mean fool for a certain act they did,like calling them an idiot,and not saying that their entire character is an idiot.
Proverb:23:13: Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverb:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
God said that if you do discipline your child physically,he will not die,and you will deliver his soul from hell.God is saying it is not bad,for while it may hurt a bit,you will keep him on the right path,that will continue to him doing right when he is older,and because of that more likely to be with God.
Eph:6:1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
Eph:6:2: Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)
Eph:6:3: That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
God said that children honoring their father and mother is the first commandment with promise,because if they will obey the authority of their parents,they are more likely to obey the authority of God.
A rod for a fool's back,not snatching them up for every little thing they do wrong and spanking them,for if children learn to obey their parent's authority,they are more likely to obey God's authority.
Everyone that I heard that talked about how they were spanked back in the day did not have a problem with it,but appreciated what their parents did,as long as it was not abuse.
Notice how today since it is taboo to spank children,that children are more unruly and outspoken towards their parents,and do not follow God correctly,if follow Him at all.
So what is better,to not spank your children if they will not listen time after time,and have them be lost without God,or to spank them so they learn to obey authority and have a better chance of being right with God.
But I believe that the physical discipline would apply more to children of an older age,for they should know better,like if two people in the military get busted for the same thing,one being a corporal,and one being a captain,the captain will take the harder fall,for he should know better than the young military man.
God looks at physical discipline as a way to keep children right,so they learn to obey the authority of their parents,which is the first commandment with promise,and God said,they will not die,and you will deliver their soul from hell.
Interesting I couldnt do it if my husband did it I would be fine with that I just could not bring myself to do it
A
atwhatcost
Guest
Let's take this to the practical.
Your toddler reaches for that pot of boiling water. What's your plan? Have a stern talking-to? Hope No works? See what happens?
I was spanked as a kid. I can tell you what my parents did wrong there and what they did right there. I also can tell you I wasn't spanked often. Truthfully their form of correction was drilled into us before our memories. I can picture Mom's hand slap when I reached for that hot glowy light on top of that stove. I'd rather have the hand slap than the scars.
We were told not to speak around adults, unless spoken to. We were taught table manners. We were taught how to sit still at mass. We were taught how to behave in a store. We were taught how to share our toys and how to put them away when we were done. I have absolutely no idea what "or else" meant, but only because I have an emotional reaction to the two words that told me they really meant business.
I can remember being spanked once when my oldest brother wasn't even in school yet. (That means I had to be 36 months old or younger. I also remember I got out of sleeping in the crib earlier than I should have, because my grandparents only had two cribs and nine grandchildren all within five years of each other.) I remember that time distinctly, because I didn't think it was fair to be spanked for waking up all the grownups at 5 AM on a weekend at my grandparents house. No one told me we weren't supposed to play "Hi Ho Silver" on the beds that early, so it didn't seem fair.
All the other spanks were infinitely fair, since I really did know I wasn't allowed to go to Bell Lake until I learned how to swim. It just felt dumb, because if I fell in, I'd stand up and walk out. It was a lake. (If only I could have figured out how to tell my parents my logic back then. lol)
So, while you're worried about an actual rod, or an actual hand, how about realizing, if you love your kids, you won't need to hurt them? You've already trained them before their first memory.
And that hand slap? It startled me into getting out of my childish mind and truly hearing Mom explain to me that hot glowing thing would hurt more than a spanking ever would. It didn't hurt any more than if I slapped my hand myself.
Rod doesn't mean long round piece of steal. It means a stick. A stick only hurts as much as the strength the person wielding it gives it. A hand slap didn't hurt. It startled me back into the real world. So would the rod if used properly.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
A
atwhatcost
Guest
That was one of the things my parents did wrong. By the time I was 5, Mom stopped spanking. Instead, she'd wait until Dad came home and was sitting down for dinner. Then she ran the list of what each one of us did that day that deserved punishment. My poor oldest brother. Each thing he did wasn't worth a spanking in itself, but when you add it all together it was worth a spanking.
Dad was the scary guy after that, particularly for my oldest brother. That ritual earned him a spanking very night for two years straight. He deserved a spanking once a week, not every day. He and Dad didn't get along easily ever since. It also made my oldest brother sadistic, and I'm the one he tortured.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
As far as the switch goes, it doesn't have to be a switch. Hubby was married before and learned how to discipline by an older Christian friend. He used a paddle made out of a hardwood, but it was wide and flat. He added holes in it throughout the paddle. That stopped it from hitting fill force. It was loud, but didn't hurt. Most pain of a spanking, if done right, is the anticipation of the hit, not the hit itself.
He also learned never to spank when angry. He'd sit quietly with his daughter and ask her what she did wrong. After she told, he asked why she should be spanked. If God wasn't mentioned in her answer, he'd bring up God. (Because The Bible says that stealing from someone -- even a small toy from your little brother -- is sin.) She'd agree. Then he asked her how many she deserved. She'd go into detail of why she chose the number, and then he'd have her go get it. That's when she'd start crying. When she returned, she repented, and handed him the paddle. Afterward, he'd hug her, tell her he loved her, and asked if she would like him to read her a book. The idea was so she understood she had served her sentence, it was dealt with, and he still loved her.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
My older brother has a stubborn streak in him. Dad used a belt and my brother would carry on like Dad was murdering him. When Dad was done, my brother turned around, laughed, and sung, "Ha, ha, didn't really hurt." Dad got madder...sometimes my brother was spanked 4 times before Dad didn't have the energy to hit him again. Then my brother would skip away. lol
I fear having a child like him. lol