Some professing Christains say that God's law is a curse. What? Why?

[crossnote]

But how do you define "faith"? Is it a demon belief type faith that is dead that James talks about that is without fruit? Or is it the faith that Hebrews 11 talks about that ties the word "faith" with various actions? Granted, we are not saved by our works. We are saved by God's grace and mercy, the renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). Then God does the "good work" within the believer once they have been renewed by the Spirit (See Ezekiel 36:26-27). So a believer cannot claim they are doing the work and saving themselvies.

Saving faith cries out (action) to Christ alone to save upon perceiving one's sinfulness, demons only believe that the gospel is true but have no part in it seeing Christ did not die for their sins.

 

[Jason0047]

I'm just wondering, when the 'law keepers' here are facing excruciating torture will they be looking to their law keeping for comfort or to Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness?

So God is against us upholding His righteous ways versus say doing evil?

God is into torture? Where does He do that in the Bible?

 

[Elin]

I have never believed or said that the "law is a curse." I said others that I've heard, who profess Christianity, describe it as such, because it is so detrimental and adversarial against the salvation of Jesus Christ.
Even if it would have never been said, the negative rhetoric concerning the law might as well be labeled as such.

And therein is your problem, labeling things based on your perception, and not the facts,

and then using your false perception as a straw man to shoot down.

 

[crossnote]

So God is against us upholding His righteous ways versus say doing evil?

God is into torture? Where does He do that in the Bible?

Two non sequiters and a strawman, try actually answering the question.

 

[Jason0047]

Saving faith cries out (action) to Christ alone to save upon perceiving one's sinfulness, demons only believe that the gospel is true but have no part in it seeing Christ did not die for their sins.

Uh, no. That is not the point James was making in James chapter 2. He says faith without works is dead. This is in context to not having a respect of persons (See James 2:1-12). It is in context to works such as Abraham offering his son upon the altar (James 2:21). Abraham was already a believer. He was justified by works. His work alone? No. The "good work" that God was working within Him. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

 

[Jason0047]

Two non sequiters and a strawman, try actually answering the question.

It's not a strawman or a nonsequiter because God is good and is just. He cannot and will not allow anyone to get away with sin. A person having a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is their Savior while they sin on occasion (with the thinking they are saved while they sin) is not going to be in favor with God because the Lord cannot condone someone who willfully rebels against Him. One must confess and strive to forsake sin with the Lord's help. For it is the Lord that works in the believer to do the "good work."

 

[crossnote]

Uh, no. That is not the point James was making in James chapter 2. He says faith without works is dead. This is in context to not having a respect of persons (See James 2:1-12). It is in context to works such as Abraham offering his son upon the altar (James 2:21). Abraham was already a believer. He was justified by works. His work alone? No. The "good work" that God was working within Him. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

You seem to be carrying on your own conversation. What was untrue with what I said?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment..And this will we do, if God permit.” church members should “judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment,” “for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (Hebrews 6:1-3, John 7:24, and 1 John 2:16)

Let's take a good look at the environment of the world for a moment, and think abut the corruption we see right in front of us on the news, and in some cases right smack dab in our own neighborhood.

Doctrines that say the law is for the lawless is correct doctrine. Yet if the church denies the instructions given to Israel in God's law, they render themselves as having no influence of how to define lawlessness, and how to influence proper policing. After all, a disciple is one who is self-disciplined, and is also related to what a policeman is. “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.” (Romans 3:3)

This lack of understanding is transfered to the lawmakers, and then they make laws according to their carnal understanding. Now I'm not talking about the doctrine of salvation here. I'm attempting to enlighten believers about what brings the curse of the law to the people we live around. Now if we are to love our enemies, the law says; “thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him.” (Leviticus 19:17b)

So if the church preaches that the law is for the lawless, yet doesn't teach the law to the church, then the church renders itself useless to minister to the lawless and the lawmakers in God's way, rather than man's. Curses will follow, and the Bible proves that. Even though we are not of this world, according to the ministry of Christ, we are to be a substantial influence in righteousness. Yes, we are to minister to the lost, but if the law is for the lost lawless people, how are we to properly minister if we tell everyone that it has been abolished? How are we supposed to contribute to peace like in Baltimore, Ferguson, New York, Chicago, and on and on? Are we just waiting to be raptured out with an apathetic mindset? The love of God is defined first in the law God gave to Israel. The love never changed with Christ.

Granted, the law by itself is not a curse, and the works thereof doesn't justify us unto salvation, but to say that it is an adversary of salvation and Christians must purposely reject it, will definitely bring a curse to the nation the same way it came to Israel. As is confirmed in scripture, God doesn't change, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If we don't learn from the mistakes in history, (including Biblical history) we are bound to repeat them.

How can you blame the "church" as a whole for the condition of the "world"? I think we all do good to keep ourselves in line with God without being responsible for every single individual in the world! There is a "church building" on almost every street corner . . . sermons on the internet, sermons on the TV - we [the "church"] cannot make all men believe. We cannot make all men obey something they don't believe in in the first place!

We do not wrestle with flesh and blood - but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness - We know that we are of God and the whole world lieth in wickedness (KJV) We know that we are from God and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (ESV) We know that we are children of God and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (NIV). There are a lot of spiritual things going on in the "background" - things that are preparing for the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Israel as a nation, had to obey ALL the law . . . if even one person failed . . . Israel as a nation was judged.

As for as teaching one how to walk after salvation - plenty in the NT (repetitive of the OT) from which one can learn to walk.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You seem to be carrying on your own conversation. What was untrue with what I said?

He does that a lot!

 

[Jason0047]

Dear Cross Note:

Also, your question is loaded. It makes a false assumption that does not exist in the Bible. Nowhere. I repeat. Nowhere does the Bible teach that "faith" is a mental acknowledgment alone for the rest of our lives with no real righteous change in our lives. Try doing a study on holiness and righteousness of the saints in the Bible. Also, try doing a study on the word "IF" in the Bible.

 

[crossnote]

I wrote..."I'm just wondering, when the 'law keepers' here are facing excruciating torture will they be looking to their law keeping for comfort or to Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness?"

It's not a strawman or a nonsequiter because God is good and is just. He cannot and will not allow anyone to get away with sin. A person having a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is their Savior while they sin on occasion (with the thinking they are saved while they sin) is not going to be in favor with God because the Lord cannot condone someone who willfully rebels against Him. One must confess and strive to forsake sin with the Lord's help. For it is the Lord that works in the believer to do the "good work."

..and that is your rEsponse to your previous non sequiter?
i gotta go and for good reason. Chow.

 

[Jason0047]

You seem to be carrying on your own conversation. What was untrue with what I said?

Well, I am getting the impression that you do not believe James when he says faith without works is dead. Is that true? When I say works... I am talking about works that come after a person has been saved. This can be seen by the context by the fact that Abraham was justified by works by offering his son in verse 21.

 

[Jason0047]

I wrote..."I'm just wondering, when the 'law keepers' here are facing excruciating torture will they be looking to their law keeping for comfort or to Jesus Christ and His perfect righteousness?"

..and that is your rEsponse to your previous non sequiter?
i gotta go and for good reason. Chow.

How can righteousness be imputed to a believer if they do not abide in His righteousness?

 

[MarcR]

In the 18th and 19th centuries, public education, in the USA, was offered and conducted (for the most part) by the Church. After the Civil War, under the influence of Secular Humanist, John Dewey, the Church abdicated that responsibility to the State.


The consequences of that abdication are seen in the decrease in performance in High School graduates during the twentieth and early twenty-first centuries.

When the churches that reacted to the mis-direction of public education started church schools, many did so without attention to quality or preparation; and largely added to the problem.


Further eroding the Church's credibility in our society, The prohibition movement and other attempts by that which calls itself Christian to adopt a legislative agenda makes a gospel of salvation by grace seem hypocritical to those we are sent to reach for Jesus.

When we, who call ourselves believers treat each other rudely and unkindly; we further erode the Church's credibility, IMO.

I don't believe that we have sufficient time before the end of the age (Mt 28:20) to correct the damage; but we can, at least, refrain from compounding the problem.

Otherwise, the curse of rejecting God's Law will continue to erode our witness.

 

[just-me]

Yes all the moral righteousness Paul mentions is covered in the Mosaic Law but not all the non moral regulations is covered by Paul.

Are there non moral regulations in the law? Maybe I misunderstood you here. Would God give Israel non moral regulations to follow?

 

[just-me]

Just curious. How does circumcision apply to the law that God gave to Moses? Is it of the heart, or of the flesh according to your undertanding?
"Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man." John 7:22

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 10:16 and 30:6

I'm applying it to those who point to the law of Moses and say we must keep it.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Why? The law doesn't say to keep it physically. The New Testament says the same as the law, and in Deuteronomy is says twice to have a circumcised heart.

Romans 2:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by GrandpaIf a person goes back to work at the law for their blessing they have fallen from Grace. So then, what are we talking about? Encouraging people to fall from Grace so they can be blessed by their work at the law?

That's pretty wild. Now if a person truly accepts Christ as their personal Savior, the Holy Spirit will teach a person to esteem all of God's word without being condemned. Even the law will be understood as a blessing from God. Now if a person is a quasi-believer, they will always be threatened by the curse that is defined in the law. That is being "under the law."

So then your answer is yes, you are encouraging people to look away from Grace and look to their blessing in the law.

There is no quasi believer. There are those who rest in Christ and those who don't enter in because of un-belief.

Now why do you always jump to the conclusion that I am "under the law" because I find no condemnation in it?

You must not fully understand the law.

Or somehow you are Jesus Christ.

Obviously, you don't fully understand the law. Please read the prayer of the Pharisee and the prayer of the publican (Luke 18)

I believe its spiritual truth that never will change, for man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. If we reject even a smidgen of God's word, that smidgen will condemn us, and that rejection places us "under the law." I would suggest to you that you think about your position concerning the law. Just because we like to throw it away by saying it's void, or abolished, doesn't make it disappear just because we don't want it around. It is inescapable. Love the Word of God, or be cursed because of rejection.

There are steps that we take with the Lord. He leads us. Once He reveals His Salvation to us we understand things that we didn't before.

One of the things we understand is that we don't go back to the Law for our blessing.

If I didn't HIGHLY esteem all of Gods Word I wouldn't be able to describe this to you. Right? I would have missed one of the most important steps. Realizing I can't perform the Law and that I need a Saviour...

I have never found any Jewish heritage in my genealogy, because I don't really care. I have heard that Paul (of the tribe of Benjamin) is an ancestor of mine, but that's no big deal either. He worshiped believing all things written in the law and the prophets, but I'm happy to say that he was a converted "legalist." LOL

I don't care as well.

You said un-believers don't esteem Gods Word and I showed why you are wrong in that statement.

 

[Jason0047]

As Paul shows in Galatians the curse of the law happens when one tries to secure their own righteousness thru ANY part of the law e.g. circumcision since the law is a whole, breaking it at any point breaks the whole.

Try looking at the context. Paul speaks of the Law as in reference to the Law of Moses because:

(a) Galatians 3:17-18 says, "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."
(b) 6 times the variation of the word "circumcision" appears in Galatians chapter 2.

So this is not speaking of all law in general whatsoever. For Paul says, shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law? Paul's answer to that question is...."God forbid." Meanining, you are not allowed to do so. And it is important to point out that sin is merely the transgression of the Law. So if we are not under the Law, yet you can sin...... think about it. In order to sin, yoiu have to be transgressing some kind of Law. This Law would be the Law of Christ under the New Covenant (Galatians 6:2).

Also, Hebrews 7:12 says there is a change in the Law. So it is not about you throwing up your arms in defeat thinking you cannot keep God's Commands. 1 John 2:3-6 says that if one does keep his commands, they do not know him. So keeping God's good ways are the basics of the faith.

 

[Jeff_56]

(typo in previous post) (unintentional)
[h=1] 1 John 2:3-6Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
[/h] [SUP]3 [/SUP]The way we can be sure we know him is if we are obeying his commands. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Anyone who says, “I know him,” but isn’t obeying his commands is a liar — the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
---------------------------------------------------






1 John 2:3-6J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

3-6 It is only when we obey God’s laws that we can be quite sure that we really know him. The man who claims to know God but does not obey his laws is not only a liar but lives in self-delusion. In practice, the more a man learns to obey God’s laws the more truly and fully does he express his love for him. Obedience is the test of whether we really live “in God” or not. The life of a man who professes to be living in God must bear the stamp of Christ.
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

J. B. Phillips, "The New Testament in Modern English", 1962 edition by HarperCollins

 

[crossnote]

Dear Cross Note:

Also, your question is loaded. It makes a false assumption that does not exist in the Bible. Nowhere. I repeat. Nowhere does the Bible teach that "faith" is a mental acknowledgment alone for the rest of our lives with no real righteous change in our lives. Try doing a study on holiness and righteousness of the saints in the Bible. Also, try doing a study on the word "IF" in the Bible.

Another Strawman. Where did I ever say that faith is a mental acknowledgement alone. Simply straw.