Catholic Heresy (for the record)

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I'm still having a hard time believing that the early churches we independent. There had to be growing pains in the new way of life and without constant contact with one another things defiantly got off course (all the early heresies). To consider that they would be strictly independent of each other, no communication, no watering guidance seems absurd. There were bishops that led them, who wrote letters to them and to each other right? Or Did they get the revelation of God himself and just go separate ways, become independent? Not even a letter going, "Hey hows saving mankind going for you?" That sounds insane.

Look at it this way. The Revelation of Man, the Word of God becomes incarnate and is made man, don't you think that's a big deal? Of course you do. These man, Apostles and Bishops, deacons and elders led by the Holy Spirit wouldn't just lets the Church at the grass roots level become independent without checking in once in a while. That seems like a petry dish for heresy.
you have a strange view of independence. it does not mean not communicating and not sharing. Of course they loved one another and had fellowship with one another widely. but they did so under their own independent leadership, guided by the Spirit. And of course they had the Apostles and their helpers to look to for GUIDANCE but not for orders. There was a loving and a sharing. and no hierarchy imposing its will on churches. Each church had a number of leaders who shared the ministry. They grew in the Spirit. And once the Gospels were written in the 60s they rapidly spread among the churches to be seen alongside Paul and Peter's letters. There is no hint of monarchical bishops in the New Testament. They were a second century phenomenon. But they were a mistake. Monarchical bishops soon became autocratic. Instead of responding to the Spirit, people began to look to men. and that was the first step on a downward path as strongminded men took over..
 
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Nov 14, 2012
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you have a strange view of independence. it does not mean not communicating and not sharing. Of course they loved one another and had fellowship with one another widely. but they did so under their own independent leadership, guided by the Spirit. And of course they had the Apostles and their helpers to look to for GUIDANCE but not for orders. There was a loving and a sharing. and no hierarchy imposing its will on churches. Each church had a number of leaders who shared the ministry. They grew in the Spirit. And once the Gospels were written in the 60s they rapidly spread among the churches to be seen alongside Paul and Peter's letters. There is no hint of monarchical bishops in the New Testament. They were a second century phenomenon. But they were a mistake. Monarchical bishops soon became autocratic. Instead of responding to the Spirit, people began to look to men. and that was the first step on a downward path as strongminded men took over..
Nice little story! Has nothing to do with the truth
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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I still don't understand what is your position.

It is fact that Catholic said you might become God. It is from official Vatican Web, I am not lying.

And you don't believe we ever become God, am I correct? Correct me if I misunderstood you.

So are you believe ccc 460 or not?
 
Nov 14, 2012
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I still don't understand what is your position.

It is fact that Catholic said you might become God. It is from official Vatican Web, I am not lying.

And you don't believe we ever become God, am I correct? Correct me if I misunderstood you.

So are you believe ccc 460 or not?
partakers in the divinity. And i am done answering the same question
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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Originally Posted by valiant
you have a strange view of independence. it does not mean not communicating and not sharing. Of course they loved one another and had fellowship with one another widely. but they did so under their own independent leadership, guided by the Spirit. And of course they had the Apostles and their helpers to look to for GUIDANCE but not for orders. There was a loving and a sharing. and no hierarchy imposing its will on churches. Each church had a number of leaders who shared the ministry. They grew in the Spirit. And once the Gospels were written in the 60s they rapidly spread among the churches to be seen alongside Paul and Peter's letters. There is no hint of monarchical bishops in the New Testament. They were a second century phenomenon. But they were a mistake. Monarchical bishops soon became autocratic. Instead of responding to the Spirit, people began to look to men. and that was the first step on a downward path as strongminded men took over..
Nice little story! Has nothing to do with the truth
wow that's a powerful argument. mwc68 speaks ex cathedra!!. But a little thing like EVIDENCE is required by those of us who believe the truth. All you need to provide are your New Testament citations proving me wrong. If you are right that won't be difficult will it? Of course you can't, because there aren't any.

Is this by any chance where you got your information from?







 
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wow that's a powerful argument. mwc68 speaks ex cathedra!!. But a little thing like EVIDENCE is required by those of us who believe the truth. All you need to provide are your New Testament citations proving me wrong. If you are right that won't be difficult will it? Of course you can't, because there aren't any.

Is this by any chance where you got your information from?
there is no evidence in your little story but you berade me for evidence? Lol this is priceless
 
Nov 14, 2012
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Yeah, you too. no evidence for independent churches
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Yeah, you too. no evidence for independent churches
but the lack of evidence of hierarchical churches IS proof of independent churches. Study 1 Cor 14. Phil 1.1 Paul's whole attitude towards the churches under his surveillance. He may urge strongly but he never commands them.
 
Nov 14, 2012
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but the lack of evidence of hierarchical churches IS proof of independent churches. Study 1 Cor 14. Phil 1.1 Paul's whole attitude towards the churches under his surveillance. He may urge strongly but he never commands them.
St. Paul also wrote to adhere to everything he taught whether by word of mouth or by letter. Still sounds like one church dependent on the teachings of the Apostles
 
Dec 26, 2014
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the rcc is HERESY. A COMPLETE ABOMINATION. TOTALLY DEVOID OF LIFE .
follows 2 proofs, proven a hundred thousand times already . >>>

""I want to put the "Conclusion" of this work first being that it is usually edited out. This will show how really dangerous Keith Green was to Rome.


"Conclusion"
It is obvious by even this brief glimpse into the doctrines of mortal and venial sins, confession, penance, and purgatory, that the Roman Catholic Church has constructed one of the most unbiblical doctrinal systems that has ever been considered "Christian". The fear, anguish, and religious bondage that such a system of "reward and punishment" creates, has tormented millions of lives for centuries, and continues to prey on those who are ignorant of the biblical way of salvation.

To merely call such a system "a cult", would be to throw it into the vast category of religions and quasi-religions that are currently making the rounds of our college campuses and city streets, snatching up many an unsuspecting youth. No, the Roman Church is not a cult. It's an empire!

With its own ruler, its own laws, and its own subjects! The empire has no borders, it encompasses the globe with its eye on every person who does not vow allegiance. It calls the members of other faiths "separated brethren" (The term used by Vatican II to describe the members of Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches.) and has as its goal the eventual bringing together of everyone under its flag.

I know that many will not be convinced or moved by this article (or any of the others) to make such a conclusion. They are impressed by what they've heard about recent stirrings among the Catholics in the "charismatic renewal". Many evangelicals (especially Charismatics) have been thrilled by the reports of Catholics speaking in tongues, dancing in the Spirit, having nights of joy and praise, even attending "charismatic masses".

Mouths that used to speak out boldly against the Church of Rome have been quieted by the times. It no longer is in vogue to speak of the pope as "the antichrist" (Although the following people unhesitatingly did: Martin Luther, John Bunyan, John Huss, John Wycliffe, John Calvin, William Tyndale, John Knox, Thomas Bacon, John Wesley, Samuel Cooper, John Cotton, and Jonathan Edwards.) or the Catholic Church as the "whore of Babylon". Now Protestants unwittingly believe that "our differences are not so great". Ah, that is just what She needs us to think!

I've never completely understood why God led me to write these articles. But it becomes more clear with each day of study, and each page of research. Never has something so black and wicked, gotten away with appearing so holy and mysteriously beautiful . . . for so long!""
 
Dec 26, 2014
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the mass is an instrument straight out of hell, out of hasatan's deadly deception. >>>


""The Sacrifice of the Mass - What Does it Mean?

In Chronicle I, we thoroughly examined the doctrine of transubstantiation - its history, practice, and real meaning. But we have waited for this second article to answer the question: WHY? Why must there be present in the Mass the literal body and blood of Jesus? What purpose does it serve?

The answer is found in the startling words: "The sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice of the cross, for there is the same priest, the same victim, and the same offering." (1)

And in the words of Pope Pius IV....

"I profess likewise that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory (2) sacrifice for the living and the dead." (From the fifth article of the creed of Pope Pius IV.)

That is the incredible truth! The Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches that in every Mass, in every church, throughout the world (estimated at up to 200,000 Masses a day) that Jesus Christ is being offered up again, physically, as a sacrifice for sin (benefiting not only those alive, but the dead (3) as well!) Every Roman Mass is a re-creation of Jesus' death for the sins of the world. NOT A SYMBOLIC RE-CREATION - but a literal, actual offering of the flesh and blood of the Lord to make daily atonement for all the sins that have been daily committed since Jesus was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. (4)

That's why the bread and wine must become physically Jesus' body and blood, so that they can be once again offered for sin: "The Holy Eucharist is the perpetual continuation of this act of sacrifice and surrender of our Lord. When the Lord's Supper is celebrated, Christ again presents Himself in His act of total surrender to the Father in death." (5)

"He offers Himself continually to the Father, in the same eternal act of offering that began on the cross and will NEVER CEASE." (6)

"The Mass is identical to Calvary - it is a sacrifice for sin - it must be perpetuated to take away sin." (7)

The catechism of the Council of Trent required all pastors to explain that not only did the elements of the Mass contain flesh, bones and nerves as a part of Christ, "But also a WHOLE CHRIST." (8) Thus it is referred to as "the sacrifice of the Mass" and as "a RENEWAL of the sacrifice of the cross." (9)



The Council Of Trent On "The Sacrifice Of The Mass"

As we shared in Chronicle I, the Council of Trent was called to clarify and standardize Catholic doctrine in response to the challenges of the Reformation. The canons on this subject (passed in Session XXII. Cap II.) are as follows:

1. "If anyone shall say, that in the Mass there is not offered to God a true and proper sacrifice, or that what is offered is nothing else than Christ given to be eaten, let him be anathema." (10)

2. "If anyone shall say that in these words, 'This do in remembrance of Me,' Christ did not make the apostles priests, or did not ordain that they themselves and other priests should offer His body and blood, let him be anathema."

3. "If anyone shall say that the sacrifice of the Mass is only of praise and thanksgiving, or a bare commemoration of the sacrifice performed on the cross, but not propitiatory; or that it is of benefit only to the person who takes it, and ought not to be offered for the living and the dead fro sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities, let him be accursed."

4. "If anyone shall say that a blasphemy is ascribed to the most holy sacrifice of Christ performed on the cross by the sacrifice of the Mass - let him be accursed."



But Is This The Belief Of Rome Today?

If any be in doubt as to the modern Roman position, we shall quote the recent (1963-1965) Second Vatican Council:

"At the Last Supper...our Saviour instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of His body and blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross..." p. 154, THE DOCUMENTS OF VATICAN II, Walter M. Abbott, S.J.

The catechism books teach that the reason the Mass is the same sacrifice as that of Calvary is because the victim in each case was Jesus Christ. (11) In fact, they refer to the bread of the Eucharist as the "host," which is the Latin word HOSTIA which literally means "VICTIM." (12)



But Why "The Sacrifice" Of The Mass?

We will now quote the church's own contemporary literature to fully answer this question (taken from the book, THIS IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, published by the Catholic Information Service, Knights of Columbus, Imprimatur: (13) Most Reverend John F. Whealon, Archbishop of Hartford:

"Sacrifice is the very essence of religion. And it is only through sacrifice that union with the Creator can be perfectly acquired. It was through sacrifice that Christ Himself was able to achieve this for man. IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE PERPETUATION OF THAT SACRIFICE THAT THIS UNION MAY BE MAINTAINED.

"What makes the Mass the most exalted of all sacrifices is the nature of the victim, Christ Himself. For the Mass is the continuation of Christ's sacrifice which He offered through His life and Christ was not only the priest of this sacrifice (of the Cross), He was also the victim, the very object itself of this sacrifice.

The Mass is thus the same as the sacrifice of the cross. No matter how many times it is offered, nor in how many places at one time, it is the same sacrifice of Christ. Christ is forever offering Himself in the Mass." (14)



But Jesus Said "It Is Finished!"

Every true believer loves the sound of these words: "It is finished!" (John 19:30). For it is the wonderful exclamation that the Lord's suffering was finally over - He had fulfilled His mission! Jesus had lived a Life of Sorrow, bearing the burden of a world gone mad. He had been rejected by everyone, even His closest friends. He had lived a perfect life before men and God, and His reward on earth was to be laughed at, spat upon, beaten beyond recognition, and finally nailed to a cross. But He had submitted willingly, because it was the will of His Father to offer Him as the satisfaction of the penalty for all the sin in the world - past, present and future!

But here, in the words of a Roman Catholic priest, is the "true meaning" of the words "it is finished!" "These words do not declare that His sacrifice was finished, but that He had finished His former, normal, earthly life and was now fixed in the state of a victim...He then began His everlasting career as the perpetual sacrifice of the new law." (15) Hence, according to Rome, Jesus must be forever "perpetually"dying for sin.

Have you ever wondered why in every Catholic Church they still have Jesus up on the cross? Every crucifix with Jesus portrayed as nailed to it, tells the whole Catholic story - Jesus is still dying for the sins of the world! But that's a lie! We need only look to the Scriptures to see the truth.""
 
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
4
0
the rcc is HERESY. A COMPLETE ABOMINATION. TOTALLY DEVOID OF LIFE .
follows 2 proofs, proven a hundred thousand times already . >>>

""I want to put the "Conclusion" of this work first being that it is usually edited out. This will show how really dangerous Keith Green was to Rome.


"Conclusion"
It is obvious by even this brief glimpse into the doctrines of mortal and venial sins, confession, penance, and purgatory, that the Roman Catholic Church has constructed one of the most unbiblical doctrinal systems that has ever been considered "Christian". The fear, anguish, and religious bondage that such a system of "reward and punishment" creates, has tormented millions of lives for centuries, and continues to prey on those who are ignorant of the biblical way of salvation.

To merely call such a system "a cult", would be to throw it into the vast category of religions and quasi-religions that are currently making the rounds of our college campuses and city streets, snatching up many an unsuspecting youth. No, the Roman Church is not a cult. It's an empire!

With its own ruler, its own laws, and its own subjects! The empire has no borders, it encompasses the globe with its eye on every person who does not vow allegiance. It calls the members of other faiths "separated brethren" (The term used by Vatican II to describe the members of Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches.) and has as its goal the eventual bringing together of everyone under its flag.

I know that many will not be convinced or moved by this article (or any of the others) to make such a conclusion. They are impressed by what they've heard about recent stirrings among the Catholics in the "charismatic renewal". Many evangelicals (especially Charismatics) have been thrilled by the reports of Catholics speaking in tongues, dancing in the Spirit, having nights of joy and praise, even attending "charismatic masses".

Mouths that used to speak out boldly against the Church of Rome have been quieted by the times. It no longer is in vogue to speak of the pope as "the antichrist" (Although the following people unhesitatingly did: Martin Luther, John Bunyan, John Huss, John Wycliffe, John Calvin, William Tyndale, John Knox, Thomas Bacon, John Wesley, Samuel Cooper, John Cotton, and Jonathan Edwards.) or the Catholic Church as the "whore of Babylon". Now Protestants unwittingly believe that "our differences are not so great". Ah, that is just what She needs us to think!

I've never completely understood why God led me to write these articles. But it becomes more clear with each day of study, and each page of research. Never has something so black and wicked, gotten away with appearing so holy and mysteriously beautiful . . . for so long!""
just more speculations. that's all this is
 
Nov 14, 2012
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Sorry, there is biblical evidence for the above slander. several have posted it. But you just seem to write the same old boring arguments .
 
Dec 26, 2014
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the same old boring arguments,

everything, everything Scriptural, shows rcc is heresy.

rcc is antichrist. rcc is completely deceptive, totally for the purpose of destroying souls.

the same story, every year it exists, ever since it started.

trust in JESUS instead of in man is the way to start to get out of hasatan's rcc.
 
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
4
0
the same old boring arguments,

everything, everything Scriptural, shows rcc is heresy.

rcc is antichrist. rcc is completely deceptive, totally for the purpose of destroying souls.

the same story, every year it exists, ever since it started.

trust in JESUS instead of in man is the way to start to get out of hasatan's rcc.
you still say the same and quote non catholic writers that have no idea what they are saying. I love the Mass and i know it is the body and blood of Christ. Now this is a mystery like other mysteries taken on faith. I don't have any hang ups. I love God and my church
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
St. Paul also wrote to adhere to everything he taught whether by word of mouth or by letter. Still sounds like one church dependent on the teachings of the Apostles
yes one independent church and note hisinstructional method. no hierarchy there just an apostle's instruction to one of the churches under his surveillance