When does the rapture occur?

[popeye]

I was born in 1984. I have been a Christian for that long. Asking Jesus into your heart, is not the same thing as being guided by his Spirit. I didn't learn to listen to his Spirit till I was about 30 and I was called into his service. Those with an ear to hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.

Well you need to reconcile the born again thinggy and and what jesus said....."you mut be born again".
I am hoping you are not saying "I was born a christian"?

 

[ManonFire63]

Well you need to reconcile the born again thinggy and and what jesus said....."you mut be born again".
I am hoping you are not saying "I was born a christian"?

Are we really going nit pick some more?

While we are on the subject, there are multiple layers to being born again. I thought I was born again as a teenager growing up. Maybe I was, but Jesus says he who loves this life more then me will lose it, while anyone who hates this world will keep it. He is the God of the living. Have you died to the world, and come up through the eye of the Needle?

Then there is Ezekiel 37, the Valley of the Dry Bones. There are a lot of Zombie movies lately. The wages of sin are death. Death to the spirit, and the Flesh hates the Spirit. God considers those people Zombies. Living dead men. When they bite someone and tempt them into immorality, that person also become a Zombie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJyVlQcy0sk

 

[valiant]

☝t<><

As a matter of courtesy, and to clarify what we literally believe, I will respond to the above, but after that, let's call it a Stalemate.

You imply the Revelation is only a Book of signs,

I IMPLY nothing. I have cited the Scripture which SAYS SO. 'and He 'signified it (made it known by signs - semaino)' (Rev 1.1)

but once again what you say contradicts what the Scriptures actually say:

Revelation 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

where is the contradiction. He showed them by signs and symbols what would take place. Or do you believe that all the weird representations and symbols will actually be literal representations?

 

[valiant]

NOW if you are talking about becoming Born Again, when you make reference to "our spiritual resurrection", you once again fail to understand what I actually said. Let me put it as simple as I can.

NOT every person that claims to be a Christian and acknowledges that Jesus is the LORD, is a real Christian.

ONLY those who have had their human spirit born into eternal life by the Holy Spirit are real Christians.

well if you truly put your trust in Him then you will be born from above, you will die with Christ, you will receive new life and be raised again with Him and seated with Him in the Heavenlies. You will share the same position as the martyrs and other believers whose SOULS have been raised and now live an reign with Christ. Until you experience this you ar not truly born again. But it is not difficult. 'As many as receive Him -- He gives the authority to become children of God who are --- born of God (John 1.12-13)

Those who only acknowledge who Jesus is and occasionally bow to Him, only have the faith of the demons:

Well only you can know if that is true of you. As for me and my house we serve the LORD fully.

Mark 5:2-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] He lived in the tombs. No one was able to restrain him anymore—even with chains—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] because he often had been bound with shackles and chains, but had snapped off the chains and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And always, night and day, he was crying out among the tombs and in the mountains and cutting himself with stones.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God, don’t torment me!”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For He had told him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “What is your name?” He asked him. “My name is Legion,” he answered Him, “because we are many.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And he kept begging Him not to send them out of the region.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now a large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The demons begged Him, “Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
So acknowledging who Jesus is and kneeling before Him, is only the faith of demons, or those on the Broad Road of Destruction. That kind of faith will NEVER SAVE.

Are you really suggesting that the former demonic was not saved? The man to whom Jesus said, 'Go home to your friends and tell them how much the LORD has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you?' That sound very much like spiritual arrogance to me. Let him who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Only when the Holy Spirit has Given you a broken contrite heart mourning over your utter sinfulness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit you surrender complete control of your life to Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning Master, willingly out of LOVE for HIM, because of the LOVE of GOD that the Holy Spirit poured into your heart (Rom. 5:5); will you have your human spirit born into eternal life by the Holy Spirit Himself.

Some of you Americans are SOOOOO arrogant. Do you think you are the only ones whom GOD is concerned with?

Prior to that your human spirit was dead. THAT IS WHAT I MEAN WHEN I USE THE TERM "Spiritual Resurrection", it is the human spirit being born from death to life by the Holy Spirit. And it happens the moment the Holy Spirit puts genuine faith in our heart, and our human spirit is born into eternal life, AND eternally alive from that moment on.

Go and teach your grandmother to suck eggs.!!!

NO WHERE in Rev. 20:4-5 does it say the literal Souls of anyone died.

Why then does it stress SOULS? Because only their souls are there with Christ. They are Christians who have died and whose SOULS have gone into His presence. They are the literal SOULS of those who have died.

That is talking about those mortals who were beheaded literally

,

It is also talking about those who have not received the mark of the Beast.

and the term souls, can also be a term to refer to living beings. {Gen 2:7, Ez.18:4, 1 Cor. 15:45} Because of that very confusion in the English language, some newer translations improved that English understanding by wording it this way:

LOL LOL just what I expected. If the translation does not suit your theory CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE GREEK. Don't let a little thing like accuracy affect your heresy. How about citing 'I pray that your spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless That clearly distinguishes the soul from the body.

You cannot determine the meaning of the Greek by citing Hebrew. LOL Well I suppose you can if you have a heresy to maintain.

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)

][SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people

wll in the US you can always find a translation which will say what you want. I prefer LITERAL translation. The Greek word is NOT people, it is SOULS.

BUT HERESIES ARE BUILT ON WRONG TRANSLATIONS.

 

[valiant]

NO WHERE in Rev. 20:4-5 does it say the literal Souls of anyone died. That is talking about those mortals who were beheaded literally, and the term souls, can also be a term to refer to living beings. {Gen 2:7, Ez.18:4, 1 Cor. 15:45}

the way in which to determine the meaning of the word is to find verse which use it in a similar context. For example, Matt 10.28. 'Do not fear those who can kill the BODY but CANNOT kill the SOUL, rather fear the One Who is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Hell.'

Even you with your blurred interpretations must see that here Jesus made a clear distinction between the body and the soul.
When it comes to the afterlife the soul is separate from the body.

This distinction is again brought out in Rev 6.9. 'I saw under the altar the SOULS of those who had been slain for the word of God and the witness which they had borne --- (they were) told to rest a little longer until the number of their fellow-servants and their brothers should be complete who were to be killed as they themselves had been'

Why were they resting? Their SOULS were awaiting the resurrection.

Because of that very confusion in the English language, some newer translations improved that English understanding by wording it this way:

The confusion is on YOUR part, There is no confusion about the above two verses. The are quite clear. In the afterlife the soul is distinct from the body. So you had better close your eyes. Then you might be able to hold on to your heresy.


Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

This LITERALLY translates as, 'I saw also the SOULS of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus --- and of those who had not worshiped the Beast and his image'.

SOULS, SOULS, SOULS, not bodies. See above.

So how do I explain that John could see souls or spirits of those beheaded under the altar (Rev. 6:9).

So you admit that there SOULS means SOULS? See what I mean about playing with the Greek?

I think it is evidence that John's spirit was literally take out of his body for that temporary period of time and literally taken to heaven to see these things. There is a great deal of Scriptures that support the idea that the entire spiritual realm of Created Beings can see each other, especially in Heaven; even though to us mortals they are invisible, and they are never seen by mortals, UNLESS those angels WANT TO BE SEEN by the mortals.

No one is arguing against that. Their SOULS can be seen. that is who John saw as living and reigning with Christ.

The nature of one who is spiritually immature, is that he or she will examine every new wind of doctrine, and his or her understanding is thereby is constantly changing, and he or she will rarely can take a firm stance on anything.

The nature of the one who is hardened in worldly doctrines is to be too inflexible to open their eyes when they hear the truth.

A spiritually mature person is one who has already examined the teachings by comparing Scripture to Scripture, and comes to an absolute understanding of that subject, having let the Scriptures define that understanding. Therefore the spiritually mature person, will be unshakable from his or her BELIEFS.

Such arrogance. So you have come to an absolute understanding of the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation? I have never come across such arrogance and stupidity in all my long life. NO ONE HAS AN ABSOLUTE UNDERSTANDING OF DANIEL AND
REVELATION and only a fool thinks otherwise.

You are confusing the First Resurrection with becoming spiritually Born Again. They are NOT the same thing,

I am not confusing anything. The first resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. All power in Heaven and earth was then released. And we are born from above the day we are united with Him in His resurrection. We are MADE ALIVE and raised with Him and seated with Him in heavenly places (Eph 2.5-6). Resurrection indeed.

the First Resurrection is when true Believers have their Bodies come out of the graves

.

SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE that says that about the first resurrection. I have shown you that Christ

That born again experience is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into the spiritual body of Jesus Christ. THAT IS A FACT, BUT IT NOT THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Luke 14:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." {Spoken of as a separate event from the Resurrection of the Unrighteous}

Acts 24:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there is going to be a resurrection, both of the righteous and the unrighteous. {TWO EVENTS}

☝t<><

You said: "I wonder who he had in mind here. Was it Darby? Or Newton? Or Scofield? Or maybe all three?"
I cannot comment on that, because I have never studied the writings of Darby, and Newton, I do not even know who he is, and Scofield was way too liberal for me to bother reading.

As I stated before, I am a CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL not associated with any particular Denomination; and I will STAND FIRM on our Beliefs.

Grace to You Doctrinal Statement of Faith

 

[valiant]

well if you truly put your trust in Him then you will be born from above, you will die with Christ, you will receive new life and be raised again with Him and seated with Him in the Heavenlies. You will share the same position as the martyrs and other believers whose SOULS have been raised and now live an reign with Christ. Until you experience this you ar not truly born again. But it is not difficult. 'As many as receive Him -- He gives the authority to become children of God who are --- born of God (John 1.12-13)



Well only you can know if that is true of you. As for me and my house we serve the LORD fully.



Are you really suggesting that the former demonic was not saved? The man to whom Jesus said, 'Go home to your friends and tell them how much the LORD has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you?' That sound very much like spiritual arrogance to me. Let him who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.



Some of you Americans are SOOOOO arrogant. Do you think you are the only ones whom GOD is concerned with?



Go and teach your grandmother to suck eggs.!!!


Why then does it stress SOULS? Because only their souls are there with Christ. They are Christians who have died and whose SOULS have gone into His presence. They are the literal SOULS of those who have died.

,

It is also talking about those who have not received the mark of the Beast.




LOL LOL just what I expected. If the translation does not suit your theory CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE GREEK. Don't let a little thing like accuracy affect your heresy. How about citing 'I pray that your spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless That clearly distinguishes the soul from the body.

You cannot determine the meaning of the Greek by citing Hebrew. LOL Well I suppose you can if you have a heresy to maintain.



wll in the US you can always find a translation which will say what you want. I prefer LITERAL translation. The Greek word is NOT people, it is SOULS.

BUT HERESIES ARE BUILT ON WRONG TRANSLATIONS.

Adding to the above I would just point you to two Scriptures which show how false your position is.


Do not fear him who is able to destroy the body but is unable to kill the SOUL, fear Him Who is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Hell (Matt 10.28.

Here it is made clear that in the afterlife there is a clear distinction between body and soul.

Rev 6.7-12 makes the same distinction. The SOULS of the martyrs are there and not their bodies.

In the face of this any false translation that you produce is meaningless.

 

[VCO]

I was born in 1984. I have been a Christian for that long. Asking Jesus into your heart, is not the same thing as being guided by his Spirit. I didn't learn to listen to his Spirit till I was about 30 and I was called into his service. Those with an ear to hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.

Believe me, you have a lot more to learn. No one is Born Again, until the Holy Spirit convicts you deeply of your utter sinfulness and you cry out to the LORD for forgiveness, and No One genuinely receives Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER, until after the Holy Spirit enters your heart bringing your once dead human spirit to become born into eternal life, and the Holy Spirit pours out the LOVE of GOD into your heart, causing you to want to, out LOVE for Jesus Christ, to surrender control of your life to HIM.

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Believe me, the modern day tongues movement, has absolutely NOTHING to do with being genuinely Born Again.

 

[VCO]

Adding to the above I would just point you to two Scriptures which show how false your position is.


Do not fear him who is able to destroy the body but is unable to kill the SOUL, fear Him Who is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in Hell (Matt 10.28.

Here it is made clear that in the afterlife there is a clear distinction between body and soul.

Rev 6.7-12 makes the same distinction. The SOULS of the martyrs are there and not their bodies.

In the face of this any false translation that you produce is meaningless.

GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, THEREFORE, THE MARTYRED SAINTS OF THE TRIBULATION, COME BACK WITH HIM AND ARE REUNITED WITH THEIR BODIES AS THEY ARE RAISED FROM THEIR GRAVES AND CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES, AT THE TIME HE COMES TO SET UP HIS 1000 YEAR EARTHLY KINGDOM; JUST LIKE HE DID SEVEN YEARS PRIOR FOR US TO GO TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


It is finished!
STALEMATE!

 

[valiant]

GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, THEREFORE, THE MARTYRED SAINTS OF THE TRIBULATION, COME BACK WITH HIM AND ARE REUNITED WITH THEIR BODIES AS THEY ARE RAISED FROM THEIR GRAVES AND CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES, AT THE TIME HE COMES TO SET UP HIS 1000 YEAR EARTHLY KINGDOM; JUST LIKE HE DID SEVEN YEARS PRIOR FOR US TO GO TO THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.


It is finished!
STALEMATE!

who knows. God might still open your mind to truth if you confront His true word instead of parroting your minister..

 

[SilverFanng]

I was born in 1984. I have been a Christian for that long. Asking Jesus into your heart, is not the same thing as being guided by his Spirit. I didn't learn to listen to his Spirit till I was about 30 and I was called into his service. Those with an ear to hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.

This. This is very true.

 

[SilverFanng]

Well you need to reconcile the born again thinggy and and what jesus said....."you mut be born again".
I am hoping you are not saying "I was born a christian"?

He isn't saying he was literally born a christian. He was a christian because God snatched him up while a toddler. The same happened to me. The first day I was able to make any cognizant decisions at all was the day I was saved.

 

[SilverFanng]

I believe God spike into my heart and told me that He is going to remove His hand of protection from, and I quote, "His people". That is very specific and vague at the same time. But I know if I really heard it and it really was from God then it will happen this year. I guess we'll find out soon enough if it's a warning from God or if I'm crazy.

 

[VCO]

who knows. God might still open your mind to truth if you confront His true word instead of parroting your minister..

I am very confident, that I understand the TRUTH and it was revealed and confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit.

 

[VCO]

I believe God spike into my heart and told me that He is going to remove His hand of protection from, and I quote, "His people". That is very specific and vague at the same time. But I know if I really heard it and it really was from God then it will happen this year. I guess we'll find out soon enough if it's a warning from God or if I'm crazy.

Yes we will, and now I will start counting the days until Jan. 1st, 2016.

 

[valiant]

I am very confident, that I understand the TRUTH and it was revealed and confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit.

so say we all lol

 

[SilverFanng]

Maybe the question we should be asking here is how do we know who has truly heard from the Lord and hasn't impressed their own will upon what He is trying to say so that all they "hear" is actually from their own desires and not from God at all or is only a half truth. The simple fact here is that not all of us are right. It is actually very likely that we each only have some of the truth.

 

[PlainWord]

Reconcile your statement with your belief the "wicked are taken first" (postribs very own wicked rapture teaching)

I have showed you the passages from Mat 13 and 24 repeatedly that clearly show the wicked are the ones taken first. Those "taken" are merely removed from the Promised Land, nothing more, nothing less. They are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those taken do not belong in the "kingdom." You chose to ignore those passages because they don't fit with your false narratives.

There is nothing more I can do for you. You have blocked out the teachings of Christ concerning when He comes and how often He comes. You have reversed His promise that we "WILL through much Tribulation enter the Kingdom," into "we won't."

I do not know with certainly what the consequences will be to those who have altered God's word and who have been false teachers within the Church over this issue, only God knows. But I do hope it won't be as bad as it was to other false teachers in the past.

The Rapture, the catching up of living believers, is the last thing to happen on this earth. The Church is not spared the Tribulation, the Church is the subject of the Tribulation along with the Jews. God's Wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation and is aimed at those causing the Tribulation, namely the Beast and His Followers which are Islamic extremists. It has already begun and is growing like birth pangs.

Sorry to come across a little harsh but nothing else has worked. You have been led away by the winds of false doctrine my friend. I used to think like you but Truth has opened my eyes.

 

[Elin]

I trust in the Word of God. I Trust in the Spirit of God. I Trust in what the Spirit is telling me and showing me. Talmudic Jews have their Law and an Encyclopedia, Muslims have Sharia, Christians have the Spirit of God. Love Jesus and accept his Spirit.

I live in God's Spirit. I live day to day. What is the Spirit of God doing today? Right this minute? How is Revelations going to play out? Are you going to rely on a Pastor with a PHD who knows a lot about the Bible and can theorize, or do you just let the Spirit show you? I just gave you a door to start figuring it out.

Roots of the great apostasy. . .

 

[Elin]

I believe God spike into my heart and told me that He is going to remove His hand of protection from, and I quote, "His people". That is very specific and vague at the same time. But I know if I really heard it and it really was from God then it will happen this year. I guess we'll find out soon enough if it's a warning from God or if I'm crazy.

Marks of the great apostasy. . .

 

[VCO]

I have showed you the passages from Mat 13 and 24 repeatedly that clearly show the wicked are the ones taken first. Those "taken" are merely removed from the Promised Land, nothing more, nothing less. They are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those taken do not belong in the "kingdom." You chose to ignore those passages because they don't fit with your false narratives.

There is nothing more I can do for you. You have blocked out the teachings of Christ concerning when He comes and how often He comes. You have reversed His promise that we "WILL through much Tribulation enter the Kingdom," into "we won't."

I do not know with certainly what the consequences will be to those who have altered God's word and who have been false teachers within the Church over this issue, only God knows. But I do hope it won't be as bad as it was to other false teachers in the past.

The Rapture, the catching up of living believers, is the last thing to happen on this earth. The Church is not spared the Tribulation, the Church is the subject of the Tribulation along with the Jews. God's Wrath comes AFTER the Tribulation and is aimed at those causing the Tribulation, namely the Beast and His Followers which are Islamic extremists. It has already begun and is growing like birth pangs.

Sorry to come across a little harsh but nothing else has worked. You have been led away by the winds of false doctrine my friend. I used to think like you but Truth has opened my eyes.

PlainWord, you exposed yourself to false teaching and swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Revelation 20:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

NOW make your THEORY square with this:

Revelation 20:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7-10 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:11-15 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.