How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

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Mar 4, 2013
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#61
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Just curious, what kind of 'enlightenment' did you receive from the rabbis in Israel? Most of their writings I have read have been very deceptive Scripture twisting when it came to Messianic Prophecies found in the OT. If I can't trust them on that point I'd be wary of their deceptions on other points. Or were these Messianic Rabbis?
I was made aware of their traditions, and how they did things without a temple for one. They endorse the Talmud that I don't see as very beneficial for it incorporates many things in addition, that are not originally issued in the Bible that I read. They were not Messianic Jews. When I told them that I believed Y'shua Mashiyach (as I related to them), that was the end of my commendatory with them. Nevertheless, they were very kind. I communicated with 2 Rabbis who didn't know each other. It was educational. They say a lot of prayers in liew of temple worship. It's really sincere, but they are missing the whole.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#62
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I was made aware of their traditions, and how they did things without a temple for one. They endorse the Talmud that I don't see as very beneficial for it incorporates many things in addition, that are not originally issued in the Bible that I read. They were not Messianic Jews. When I told them that I believed Y'shua Mashiyach (as I related to them), that was the end of my commendatory with them. Nevertheless, they were very kind. I communicated with 2 Rabbis who didn't know each other. It was educational. They say a lot of prayers in liew of temple worship. It's really sincere, but they are missing the whole.
but no enlightenment that you already didn't know from Scripture?
 
Mar 21, 2015
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#63
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?



Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

With respect.


King James Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#64
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

but no enlightenment that you already didn't know from Scripture?
Not at all. It was benificial in only one respect, and that was that I was given more insight as to their culture, and through that have a better understanding which causes one to be a little more compassionate despite our obvious differences of beliefs. They are also waiting for the opportunity to build another temple which we all know is somewhat related to the end times. They have the plans, and the material as I understand.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#65
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?



Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

With respect.


King James Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
I wholeheartedly agree. We should all have the incentive to minister the truth of Christ being the Messiah as prophesied. Understanding those who are "under the law" with compassion rather than accusations, demeaning phrases, and name calling. There are also some (myself included) who are labeled as one that desires to be "under the law" just because I esteem the law as beneficial to believers in Christ after being born again by the grace of God in Christ Jesus. There is a prophecy also concerning the coming together with those who are currently "under the law" such as non-Messianic Jews in Ezekiel chapter 37.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#66
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

No problem, sister. I have been known to be misunderstood before. LOL! You aren’t the first and won’t be the last, I’m sure. Thank you for the encouragement.
I appreciate your sympathy and you have my sympathies as well. The very first thread I posted in cc was about women and it unleashed a fierceness that shocked me. I was appalled at how nasty people could be and didn’t post again for a long time as I licked my wounds and recuperated. Since then I have posted a little. The threads I have started have been to share things I learned as I studied – just to share and help others – but they were usually attacked as if I was trying to force my beliefs down everyone’s throat. So, I tend to back off and forget about cc for a while. Then sure enough, someone asks that I post something I shared with them and the cycle starts again. I do seem to be recuperating more quickly now and that is due to God’s grace. It happened like this:
Being an observer of several different conversations between Christians, where neither party could see the other’s point, showed me something I had often wondered about. I questioned why people couldn’t seem to follow another’s explanation of a given subject. The situation usually led to anger and sometimes, a parting of ways.
I realized then that people have very strongly embedded, preconceived ideas, or predetermined definitions of certain words (such as prodigal, for example), in their minds. This prevents them from learning and growing closer to God. It is easy to see this in others when they have an opinion, a belief about how some spiritual principle is and they just will not let go of it or even back off long enough to see the other person’s point.
Sad but true, this “irregularity” is much more difficult to see in ourselves. So, I asked Adonai, in all sincerity, to show me if I was holding on to some preconceived idea or favorite principle or belief that was retarding my quest to better know and have the mind of Christ as scripture tells us we should.
As often happens, He opened my eyes to an unexpected aspect of that principle of which I was guilty. And as was the case with some other lessons He taught me, this was also rather humiliating.
It was a terrible day – emotionally strenuous and exhausting. But by evening, I realized that in spite of feeling emotionally drained and worn out, God had answered my prayer of a day or two before, to show me anything in myself that I may not recognize as a hindrance to my spiritual growth – having the mind of Christ – becoming more Christ like, etc.
He showed me that my inferiority complex – my habit of thinking I am less intelligent, usually wrong, a bother to others, useless for anything substantial, and therefore less valuable (at the slightest provocation), hinders God’s working in me and through me to accomplish His plans for using me for His glory.
It is quite humiliating to have to admit all of this but it will help someone else, and that makes it worth it. The bottom line is this: to allow an “inferiority complex” to shape one’s self image is NOT the humility we are told to have as imitators of Christ. It is an exaggeration of the word “humble” which makes it a distortion. Therefore, it is sin. It is sin because that is not how God sees us.
I wonder how many other traits we Christians have that don’t pop out as blatantly sinful.
Whoa! This seems familiar. :eek:

I know a trait I really do have, but I also misused, to the point of it becoming something else. The trait I do have is discernment. The downside of it is something God spanked me about -- gossip. It's very easy to become full of ourselves. Much harder to empty and replace with God in us. (Often feels like emptying a boat with an 8 inch gash using a 6 inch bailer. lol)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#67
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Just curious, what kind of 'enlightenment' did you receive from the rabbis in Israel? Most of their writings I have read have been very deceptive Scripture twisting when it came to Messianic Prophecies found in the OT. If I can't trust them on that point I'd be wary of their deceptions on other points. Or were these Messianic Rabbis?
I know this isn't what you're saying, but try John Gill's Commentary. He studied long and hard in seminary, and then he spent years in Jerusalem to study the Targums. Truthfully, I also feel, at times, he relies too much on the Targums, except he sticks with the traditional ones and nitpicks where he thinks they're wrong, so I trust him. I admire a guy who commented on every single verse in the Bible phrase by phrase, and he started in the NT before going for the OT. (That makes him see Christ more in the OT than I ever have.)

Any which way, I really do find it very helpful if someone has the background to understand the Jewish concepts of their version on the OT. I often ask questions to Jews on another site, just to see how they perceive the pentateuch now that most Jews don't live anywhere close to Jerusalem to keep it like they're supposed to. I'm amazed at the stuff they know that I, as a 21st century American Christian, find so far from the way I think. I wish I had that kind of background before I was born again.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#68
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I would say and i am answering the title-- that we would have to explain how the law is not of Faith and Faith pleases GOD and that GOD looks at the heart/a persons motive is more important than whether they keep rules and regulations.
 
Mar 3, 2013
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#69
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I would say and i am answering the title-- that we would have to explain how the law is not of Faith and Faith pleases GOD and that GOD looks at the heart/a persons motive is more important than whether they keep rules and regulations.
I appreciate you taking the time to comment peaceably. This is true. The Bible tells us so four times beginning with Habakkuk 2:4 and three more times in the New Testament – Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, and Hebrews 10:38. And of course Galatians 3:5-12 where it explains that the law is not of faith while quoting five Old Testament scriptures.
Galatians 3:5-12 (NAS)
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
(This is quoting Genesis 15:6)
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.
(This is quoting Genesis 12:3)
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM
(This is quoting Deuteronomy 27:26)
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." (This is quoting Habakkuk 2:4)
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." (This is quoting Leviticus 18:5)

Indeed a person’s motive is more important than whether they keep rules and regulations. However, the opening post was not meant to insinuate that those who believe in the value of the Law for today are wrong. In fact, I believe just the opposite. I used the law as an example because it is a favorite ‘bone of contention’ in here, and the purpose was to cause people to stop and think HOW to speak to someone he/she might think is wrong about a given subject. Paul tells us how to treat people – gently, becoming like some so some can be gained, etc. including speaking to someone who is 'under the law' even though he was not under the law himself, but it is rarely seen practiced among professing Christians today in cc or anywhere else. In actuality, professing Christians don't know enough about the law to do as Paul did - they haven't been taught, nor have they sought to learn on their own.
But that is as far as I will go because more than that gets into debating the law vs grace/law vs faith arena which belongs elsewhere. This thread was meant to cause readers to remember and apply the 'golden rule' at the very least, and to do a little self-examination if bold enough.





 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#70
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I know this isn't what you're saying, but try John Gill's Commentary. He studied long and hard in seminary, and then he spent years in Jerusalem to study the Targums. Truthfully, I also feel, at times, he relies too much on the Targums, except he sticks with the traditional ones and nitpicks where he thinks they're wrong, so I trust him. I admire a guy who commented on every single verse in the Bible phrase by phrase, and he started in the NT before going for the OT. (That makes him see Christ more in the OT than I ever have.)

Any which way, I really do find it very helpful if someone has the background to understand the Jewish concepts of their version on the OT. I often ask questions to Jews on another site, just to see how they perceive the pentateuch now that most Jews don't live anywhere close to Jerusalem to keep it like they're supposed to. I'm amazed at the stuff they know that I, as a 21st century American Christian, find so far from the way I think. I wish I had that kind of background before I was born again.
Oh yeah, I used to have Gill's complete Commentary in hard back...back when there was such a thing as book reading and I was then (not now) a Reformed Baptist. I settle now for the free version on E-Sword. You're right, one can glean from the background but I was mainly interested in what Just-me has been enlightened on seeing that he often comes up with some ahem, 'interesting' angles, shall we say.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#71
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Oh yeah, I used to have Gill's complete Commentary in hard back...back when there was such a thing as book reading and I was then (not now) a Reformed Baptist. I settle now for the free version on E-Sword. You're right, one can glean from the background but I was mainly interested in what Just-me has been enlightened on seeing that he often comes up with some ahem, 'interesting' angles, shall we say.
You do too LOL ;) I feel we are getting along much better these days. Praise God for that.

 
Dec 9, 2011
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#72
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

And may I say that if people think that someone is trying to say things that get others to like their post then that is not true and will not be responded to in a encouraging/understanding way but if people sense that you care(have good motive)they will respond positively.
I need to be more conscious of this myself.:)
 
Mar 3, 2013
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#73
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

And may I say that if people think that someone is trying to say things that get others to like their post then that is not true and will not be responded to in a encouraging/understanding way but if people sense that you care(have good motive)they will respond positively.
I need to be more conscious of this myself.:)
Thank you for your sharing your insight - great contribution to the discussion!
 
Dec 26, 2014
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#74
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

"starters" seemed a good start. but the op was jumbled up and dind't make sense.
and
you got the title of the thread mixed up a little. notice the same letters are in title and little, one extra 'l' in little. (a small point).


the answer is found in psalm 119. (same in Yahweh, in Yahshua)
"Consequently, we can see that in all the occurrences of a believer’s life, whether special or ordinary, everything which proceeds from evil spirits strips the proper functioning from his mind. The Holy Spirit, however, never does."
surprise (truth is a surprise these days) link> The Mind a Battlefield - Watchman Nee
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#75
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

They should be shown the gospel.
 
Mar 3, 2013
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#76
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

They should be shown the gospel.
The opening post was not meant to insinuate that those who believe in the value of the Law for today are wrong. In fact, I believe just the opposite. I used the law as an example because it is a favorite ‘bone of contention’ in here, and the purpose was to cause people to stop and think HOW to speak to someone he/she might think is wrong about a given subject. Paul tells us how to treat people – gently, becoming like some so some can be gained, etc. including speaking to someone who is 'under the law' even though he was not under the law himself, but it is rarely seen practiced among professing Christians today in cc or anywhere else. In actuality, professing Christians don't know enough about the law to do as Paul did - they haven't been taught, nor have they sought to learn on their own.
But that is as far as I will go because more than that gets into debating the law vs grace/law vs faith arena which belongs elsewhere. This thread was meant to cause readers to remember and apply the 'golden rule' at the very least, and to do a little self-examination if bold enough.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#77
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

The opening post was not meant to insinuate that those who believe in the value of the Law for today are wrong. In fact, I believe just the opposite. I used the law as an example because it is a favorite ‘bone of contention’ in here, and the purpose was to cause people to stop and think HOW to speak to someone he/she might think is wrong about a given subject. Paul tells us how to treat people – gently, becoming like some so some can be gained, etc. including speaking to someone who is 'under the law' even though he was not under the law himself, but it is rarely seen practiced among professing Christians today in cc or anywhere else. In actuality, professing Christians don't know enough about the law to do as Paul did - they haven't been taught, nor have they sought to learn on their own.
But that is as far as I will go because more than that gets into debating the law vs grace/law vs faith arena which belongs elsewhere. This thread was meant to cause readers to remember and apply the 'golden rule' at the very least, and to do a little self-examination if bold enough.
1 Timothy 1:5-7
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


They should be shown the gospel. They should be shown scripture, especially NT scripture if they claim to be Christian.

Hebrews 7:19 [SUP] [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
 
Dec 26, 2014
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#78
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

I think a major factor of much friction (and yes I'm guilty too) is that we overly rely on our own arguments of 'wisdom' and 'insight' to try to persuade and protect others from 'doctrinal error' instead of committing the matter to God and entrusting their souls to Him.
unless a man becomes as a little child, he shall never see the kingdom of heaven.

and only the pure in heart will ever see heaven.

there's no argument against these.
 
Apr 29, 2015
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#79
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

Maybe it is a heart issue or lack of Love for others in a respectful manner. People have forgotten the Golden Rule:

[h=1]Matthew 7 English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]The Golden Rule[/h]12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

[h=1]Matthew 15 English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]Traditions and Commandments[/h]15 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.”3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”[a] 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word[b] of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”



[h=1]Luke 6 English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]Judging Others[/h]37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned;forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”




 
Dec 26, 2014
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#80
Re: How Should Christians Treat Those Who Seem To Want To Be "Under The Law"?

people have a choice. seek the creator, seek jesus and follow jesus doing as the creator says.

or do anything else.

simple.

there's billions of people who are told not to seek jesus, and who follow man, instead of jesus.

they 'judged' incorrectly, and lost their souls for it.