OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[JesusIsAll]

You don't believe the bible at all if you believe that.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

You guys are really bringing the chickens home to roost today, some great comments. You've mentioned a couple more reasons you have to conclude these with false gospels are disingenuous.

If one is preaching something false, in this case works salvation and the lie of having sinless perfection, that person is under those terms. You can't teach a false gospel, then meet the Lord on terms of the true gospel, have a false confession that saves. As you mention, their confession is actually not having faith in the gospel to save, which demonstrates a misunderstanding of faith that cannot trust God and His promises, does not trust grace and the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

You put the whole picture together, and it's senseless: it doesn't fit together as a credible faith anybody could have. These people either are insane, or deceivers who don't really care about salvation, are here for trolling or the devil, though one in the same, when their behavior involves perversion of the things of God. They are simply trying to refute the true faith and raise doubt, or are merely trolling to offend, if I have to say it a thousand times.

They can't give a coherent answer for what they believe, of these important issues you raise. What those carrying a false gospel are demonstrating, for whatever their reasons for these perversions, is a need to be saved.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: to whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

 

[Grandpa]

I agree with what is written Hebrews 3:12 if you do not that is between you ad God.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with what is writtein in Heb 3:12 that again is between you and God.

I don't have any problem with you or what is written in Hebrews 3:12.

I was just wondering how you were applying it. And why you would want to.

And then if you keep reading into Hebrews 4 I suppose you should see my point, if you have read my responses in this thread.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Why do they so want it to be that a person can lose the gift of salvation? Is it so they can have their club that looks down on everyone? Is it an insecurity about their own faith? Is a pride in their own efforts? I just don't understand the rub.

That's just it. The whole scenario is phony. I've been a Christian a long time, and have never seen even bad Christians purport to believe the things they claim. They have some sort of weird, disassociative gospel of the basic tenants of the faith. It's a web phenomenon, trolls or devils, as if it makes any difference which. Teaching this weirdness would get them ejected from many congregations of Bible believers. They're fakes.

 

[DesiredHaven]

It corresponds to those who go back to their own work for their justification.

Do we have to worry that we are not abiding in Christ strongly enough? Are we worrrying that we don't have quite enough faith?

I guess I'm not sure what we should be worried about.

We are to abide in the doctrine of Christ,

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

The Father removes the branches that bear no fruit and men gather these branches

Psalm 125:5 As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, (((( the LORD ))))) shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.

 

[Sirk]

They are worried that some who think they are saved are in fact not saved but are living in sin thinking they are saved.

Its a valid worry, I suppose.

But it doesn't make OSAS untrue.

its not virtuous to make oneself responsible for another's status. In fact, it is unhealthy and immature.

 

[JesusIsAll]

They are worried that some who think they are saved are in fact not saved but are living in sin thinking they are saved.

Its a valid worry, I suppose.

But it doesn't make OSAS untrue.

They're worried about people? Try would like to make them doubt their salvation.

 

[JesusIsAll]

its not virtuous to make oneself responsible for another's status. In fact, it is unhealthy and immature.

God is impotent to save, needs their help. Just what would the Creator do, without these creatures?

 

[DesiredHaven]

I don't have any problem with you or what is written in Hebrews 3:12.

I was just wondering how you were applying it. And why you would want to.

And then if you keep reading into Hebrews 4 I suppose you should see my point, if you have read my responses in this thread.

I didnt write it, I believe he was applying it as a warning to them.

 

[mailmandan]

Somebody yesterday brought forth Simon of Acts 8 as proof of loss of salvation, because it says he believed. Apparently, the claimant was oblivious that Simon went on to try and buy the Holy Spirit. All Simon shows us is an example of a fake faith, explicit in scripture he was not born again. You see the same in exegesis of these people so often, using scripture that, actually, destroys their claims, no understanding of the Bible.

Amen! Acts 8:13 says that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done". Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon: Peter said to him, 20 "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." That does not sound like saving belief to me!

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

 

[JesusIsAll]

If salvation can be lost there will be more crickets in heaven than people.....no one except Jesus can keep the law, word of God and do no sin 100% of the time every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every year their whole life........Jesus was the only one who was 100% righteous and without sin the whole time.........

More crickets in heaven, love that! And it's a fact. By their gospel, nobody is saved, period.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Father takes the branch that bears not fruit away (I'll answer)

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
he taketh away:

Where do they go?

Because we know...

John 15:2...every branch that beareth fruit,
he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus said,

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me,
he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them,
and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

So he taketh away: and likewise it says,

Psalm 125:5 As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways,
the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity:
but peace shall be upon Israel.

Seems to correspond with that which bears thorns and briers whose end is to be burned

Yes, notice it says every branch "IN ME" meaning they were once "IN CHRIST" but did not bring forth fruit.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
he taketh away:

And if we do not abide in the Word, in the belief of what the Word says is true, then what happens

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me,
he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them,
and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Same as I showed in my OP....
Romans 11:20-22 “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

That sure sounds like a warning to abide in faith doesn’t it? For we stand by faith, but some say you cannot fall from the faith, which is contrary to the words of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

To teach you can lose salvation you must deny and reject the following.....

1. The good work that Jesus has begun in you he will finish...
2. Jesus is the beginner and FINISHER of our faith
3. I will never leave thee or forsake thee
4. The continual mediatorship of Jesus and his continual intersession
5. Jesus saves to the uttermost
6. The sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption
7. The use and reason of chastisement including physical death
8. The example of the fornicator in Corinthians and the fact that his spirit is still saved in the day of Jesus Christ
9. Ecclesiastes 3:11 and WHATSOEVER God does lasting FOREVER
10 The words eternal and everlasting as applied unto life and salvation
11. The condemnation of the law being removed from believers
12. The difference between OT saints and NT saints and death without mercy under the OT and being found under Grace in the NT
13. The righteousness of God without the law being applied unto the believer by faith
14. The truth that one born of God does NOT SIN (The SPIRIT) while bound in a body of SIN
15. The prodigal son who was ALIVE through the whole process, yet perceived as dead by his actions
16. The word justification and it's legal application unto the believer
17. The word sanctification as applied unto the believer (positionally in Christ)
18. Being in the hands of the Father, Son and sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE
19. The verb tenses of the Greek language as applied unto salvation and eternal life
20 That Jesus will LOSE nothing that he has been given, but will raise it up at the last day
21. That our life has been HID within Christ
22. That our sins have been imputed unto Christ while having the righteousness of Christ imputed unto the believer
23. That we are saved and justified by the perfect, unfailing faith of JESUS
24. That we are KEPT by the POWER of GOD
25. That it is not earned, kept facilitated by our works, abilities or righteousness that we do
26. That we are called, saved and justified before the foundation of the world (in the eyes of God) with God knowing every sin we would commit
27.The where sins abounds in a believer that GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS

and on and on and on..........ALL of the principles above have to be rejected to teach and believe you can lose salvation...........

 

[JesusIsAll]

Amen! Acts 8:13 says that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done". Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon: Peter said to him, 20 "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." That does not sound like saving belief to me!

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

There are those with a lip service faith, for whatever their reasons they've not really repented, at the foot of the cross. God is not fooled, Who can search the hidden man of the heart, and He doesn't give the Holy Spirit to fakes. The Bible speaks to these people in a number of places, the "Lord Lord" crowd, virgins without lamps, Laodiceans: masses of people He doesn't really know, who are not born again, having His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Somebody once put it, "Profession, without possession."

 

[DesiredHaven]

Yes, notice it says every branch "IN ME" meaning they were once "IN CHRIST" but did not bring forth fruit.
John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
he taketh away:

And if we do not abide in the Word, in the belief of what the Word says is true, then what happens

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me,
he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them,
and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Same as I showed in my OP....
Romans 11:20-22 “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”

That sure sounds like a warning to abide in faith doesn’t it? For we stand by faith, but some say you cannot fall from the faith, which is contrary to the words of God.

Yes, we stand by faith and it does sound like a warning.

 

[JGIG]

Well, your gospel is not of the Bible dear sir. John 12:48 says that God's Word will judge us if we reject His words. So it is not just a belief alone. For even the demons believe and tremble.

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (from Heb. 9)

 

[Sirk]

Does a good parent criticize and condemn their children continually and make them by force, by threats, by beating them down and robbing them of their humanity by abusive control to make them conform? Not hardly. The only love involved in the scenario is for oneself.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Does a good parent criticize and condemn their children continually and make them by force, by threats, by beating them down and robbing them of their humanity by abusive control to make them conform? Not hardly. The only love involved in the scenario is for oneself.

It's just ugleee. Seeing some of this stuff is like cyber peeking under a rock. But never worry that anybody is snatched out of God's hands by trolls. People have eyes to see and ears to hear, or not. It's just the web, not a church congregation.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

You are obviously not understanding. Did you go back and read from the beginning of chapter 2?

2 Peter 2:1-3
[SUP]1[/SUP]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Did a false prophet fall away from the faith? Doesn't really appear that the false prophet ever had true faith to fall away from.

It appears to me you are trying real hard to misrepresent what the scriptures say is true. They are clear to those who do not try to conform scripture to fit into their own false ideas and doctrines. Notice what it actually says...

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

Even what you posted above says the Lord had bought them,
They had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour JESUS CHRIST
They had known the way of righteousness...been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to turn
That means they fell away from the faith

They were washed, but like the proverbial pig they returned to the ways of the world, and sin, and filth, like a pig wallowing in the mire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are to abide in the doctrine of Christ,

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

The Father removes the branches that bear no fruit and men gather these branches

Psalm 125:5As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, (((( the LORD ))))) shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.

if your going to quote john you should continue quoting what he said.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

so how do you relate the verses with your post? since whoever sins and never known God period. And whoever is born of God does not sin? Oh where did I get that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So it would seem whoever is born of God must abide in God. for if not, they could fall into a sinful lifestyle. Yet here John makes it clear. they can not do that, because they have been born of God.

See how easy it is to take context and all of scripture. and make it agree, there would be alot less twisting of the word of God to make a false doctrines made by men.

 

[sparkman]

I believe in free will, but the freewiller version of it is autonomous free will, which I reject. God gives us free will within certain parameters. It's a bit like being a fish in a pond..the fish can go anywhere within the pond, but he can't choose to live on dry land.

One of my friends says that free willers are idolaters. I'm inclined to believe him lately. The object of their faith is in themselves and their ability to continue their salvation, rather than in Christ. We are a pretty poor object to place our faith

Since I was a free willer at one time, I can have sympathy though

Besides that, it seems like there's a denial of regeneration, or a changed nature. God changes our nature. We no longer want to pursue a direction away from Christ due to this change in nature. We may wander off the path, but there's a fundamental change in nature that occurs as a result of salvation.