OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Jason0047]

And then there are those who are twice dead, meaning they were dead in their sins and trespasses, and then born again (made alive) but then would later fall away. Notice, they had fruit for a time, but that fruit had withered to the point of being without fruit.

Jude 1:12
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

We see this "twice dead" in another place in Scripture.

The Parable of the Sower.

When the prodigal son came back home to his father, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times within the parable. This of course was speaking in spiritual terms. The son being "dead" is obviously talking about "spiritual death." For when did Jesus's parables not speak in spiritual terms?

 

[notuptome]

Jesus considers his mother, brothers, and sisters as those who does the will of the Father (See Matthew 12:48-50). The Father told everything Jesus was supposed to say and do. Jesus' ministry and salvation of the world had been memorialized in part into Scripture. Everything Jesus said and did was consistent with Scripture and God's Law. The Father was one with Jesus and Jesus was one with HIm. They were of the same mind. So the commands in Scripture given by Jesus came from the Father. It is the Father's will that you obey the commands given by Jesus as written by Scripture because He told Jesus to say those Commands. So if one is obeying God's Commands in the New Testament (Not the Old Testament), then they are doing the Father's will. If one is doing the Father's will then they are Jesus's brothers, sisters and mother. In other words, to be a part of God's family one must obey Jesus.

Obedience flows out of salvation not into salvation. One must be saved to be obedient. Those who are not saved will not be saved by obedience as they cannot know obedience their works being evil.

The grace of God by which we are saved is without repentance on Gods behalf. God is faithful when we fail. God does not reject us when we fail. God restores us and prepares us to go forward better able to obey for having failed.

God loved me when I know Him not and He does not waiver in His love for me now that I am His in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 I am the righteousness of God in Christ. Righteousness imputed not earned that I might have ought in which to boast save in my Christ.

Gods grace whereby He saves me is completely sufficient and nothing I can do will add to or take away from the completeness of Gods grace. I will give an account to God for what I have done since I've been saved but it is my works and not my salvation that will be tried in the fire of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DesiredHaven]

Incredibly judgmental. What spirit is it that condemns those who name the name of Christ?

I do not agree with all the stuff people on CC believe but it is no where near the line you so freely cross in tearing and rending others whom you obviously deem to be inferior to yourself.

Works and obedience flow out of salvation. Works and obedience do not flow into salvation. There is a spirit that turns the things of God around to make the truth a lie and the lie to appear as the truth. That spirit is not the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:10

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Incredibly partial to grab his post and not to what he is responding to,

 

[JesusIsAll]

This is exactly what Jesus is talking about, but you again twist, lie, and misrepresent God's words so as to mislead the brothers and sisters on here immature enough in the faith not to know you are a false teach, a heretic, and deservedly ignored for your complete lack of knowledge, and your utter lack of Christ in you.

Brother, one thing about that is not to think in terms of some false empowerment of them. The Holy Spirit will lead the immature into truth and righteousness, works with the Spirit-filled and sanctified. It's a whole lot to do about nothing, in the final analysis: point out the lies, and you've done what's required. Unless, like me, you have some fun with it that's probably a "guilty pleasure," these wingnuts are just people that need saved, though this may be difficult, for those so hardened to truth, despite being exposed to it, thoroughly. As it stands, they're just working for the other guy, and it shows. But people shouldn't get too exercised over matters that are, when you step back, just, "So what else is new?", of the world, the flesh and the devil. The assumption having a ChristianChat user ID makes a Christian shouldn't be made, in the first place. As a matter of fact, it's a honey pot for deceivers.

 

[dcontroversal]

Did david bare fruit when he was in the throes of his judgment for his transgressions. Did God cut him off and throw him in the fire? You can cherry pick the bible all day long to bolster your bias but youre hopefully only deceiving yourself.

Not to mention the fact that there is absolutely no point to chastening a child if they can lose salvation and no longer be a child.....

 

[notuptome]

Heres a few verses on forsaking... "Let... for..."

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness;
and be content with such things as ye have:
for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Theres one place where David tells His Son Solomon about forsaking the LORD here

1 Chr 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Psalam 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD,
hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,
in departing from the living God.

Jerm 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed,
And they that depart from me shall be written in the earth,
because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Scripture here is speaking of sanctification not of salvation. The example in 1 Cor 5 of the man living in sin demonstrates this with extreme biblical precision. Paul said to pray for his flesh to be delivered to satan for destruction not that his soul should come into condemnation. This was for the sake of the testimony of the church.

God loves His children and chastens those who need to be instructed with tribulation and suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Obedience flows out of salvation not into salvation. One must be saved to be obedient. Those who are not saved will not be saved by obedience as they cannot know obedience their works being evil.

The grace of God by which we are saved is without repentance on Gods behalf. God is faithful when we fail. God does not reject us when we fail. God restores us and prepares us to go forward better able to obey for having failed.

God loved me when I know Him not and He does not waiver in His love for me now that I am His in Christ. 2 Cor 5:21 I am the righteousness of God in Christ. Righteousness imputed not earned that I might have ought in which to boast save in my Christ.

Gods grace whereby He saves me is completely sufficient and nothing I can do will add to or take away from the completeness of Gods grace. I will give an account to God for what I have done since I've been saved but it is my works and not my salvation that will be tried in the fire of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well, I do not believe in Works Salvationism or in earning my salvation. I believe God (Christ) does the "good work" in the believer's life and that it is not ultimately their work. A believer merely yields to the work God wants to do in them. Just as a new believer yields to the working of the Spirit to repent of their sins and to accept Christ as their Savior. So yes; Out of salvation (Repenting of one's sins and accepting Christ).... flows good fruit. For Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation; For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). If a believer sins, and they refuse to repent of that sin, then Jesus (Being Holy) cannot abide in that person because they are openly rebelling against Him. Nor is God going to back out on His promise to save a person if they do repent of their sins and accept Him as their Savior (Even if He knows they will turn away away from him 5 years down the road). God does not force salvation upon people. Nor is salvation in something that we do, either. For Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. For we can do all things thru Christ which strengthens us. In other words, when I say we must obey Jesus.... I am talking about yielding to the work He wants to do in you. So it's not your work. You cannot take the credit and do a dance of victory for any works that you do. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

 

[dcontroversal]

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Exactly....saved by faith and kept by works......... or as Paul said....begun in the SPIRIT and made complete by the flesh.....a gospel of a different KIND with no power to save, double cursed........exactly the message one who believes they can lose salvation teaches and espouses!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I just was hoping maybe someone could help me out understanding/interpreting this scripture.

Hebrews 6:4
king james version(kjv)

4.)For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
+++++++++

Doesn't the heavenly gift mean --to be reborn of the Spirit of GOD?

Why would that scripture have been put in the bible i mean if it didn't matter why would GOD bother even having that put in the bible since it wouldn't matter anyway?

 

[DesiredHaven]

Let's deal with this crap while we're at it, too. You've been told before, by me and by others, that the modern translations inexplicably carry over a bad translation from the KJV for no good reason.

The word wrongly translated "takes away" is the Greek airo (airo), meaning in reality "lift up." Then and now, a storm afflicting a vineyard would result in the vinedresser going through the vineyard the next day, brush and a bucket of soapy water in hand. Finding a branch knocked down into the mud, he cleans it off, gently lifts it up, and ties it back into the trellis so it will grow healthy and bear fruit.

Go to any vineyard in the U.S., you will still see this process today. Jesus used a strong real-life example of how He heals broken Christians. But you would have people believe He is short-tempered, ill-willed, and condemns them for being human. You are to be shamed and rejected for such nonsense.

This is exactly what Jesus is talking about, but you again twist, lie, and misrepresent God's words so as to mislead the brothers and sisters on here immature enough in the faith not to know you are a false teach, a heretic, and deservedly ignored for your complete lack of knowledge, and your utter lack of Christ in you.

Thats the other part of the verse VW, not that branch you quote there

You said,




No crap here

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

(((next part of the verse)))) and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me (the Vine) and I in him (the branch) the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me (the vine) ye (the branch) can do nothing.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Theres NO SOAPY WATER applied to the cast forth ones

See FIRE?

And you are correcting him on my post?

Verse 15:6 show he (the branch is cast forth) CAST FORTH and gather by men for fire not soapy water

Only every branch that bears fruit gets purged (not the ones that are gathered by men to be cast into the fire

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it,that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[notuptome]

Incredibly partial to grab his post and not to what he is responding to,

Just as long as you get the message. He started a thread on a very controversial subject and gets upset when he is refuted by the truth of Gods word.

Those whom God saves the devil cannot unsave. The victory is Christ's. Those who save themselves are never saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[JesusIsAll]

Exactly....saved by faith and kept by works......... or as Paul said....begun in the SPIRIT and made complete by the flesh.....a gospel of a different KIND with no power to save, double cursed........exactly the message one who believes they can lose salvation teaches and espouses!

They're their own worst enemies. It's almost as if Ronald Reagan is standing aside the computer window, saying, "There you go, again!" They cite the very verse, which condemns the false gospels they advocate. They tell people the accursed lies, then prove, by scripture, they are accursed. How does that work?

 

[DesiredHaven]

Exactly....saved by faith and kept by works......... or as Paul said....begun in the SPIRIT and made complete by the flesh.....a gospel of a different KIND with no power to save, double cursed........exactly the message one who believes they can lose salvation teaches and espouses!

I think Inspirit would agree with my post as well, so dont try to use my post to condemn him as if he missed some sort of deep truth here

 

[Jason0047]

Exactly....saved by faith and kept by works......... or as Paul said....begun in the SPIRIT and made complete by the flesh.....a gospel of a different KIND with no power to save, double cursed........exactly the message one who believes they can lose salvation teaches and espouses!

Paul was talking about the outward obedience to circumcision from the Law of Moses (Which was done away with when Christ died upon the cross) (Hebrews 8:13). Christians today are not lawless or under no Law whatsoever. Christians obey the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). Paul was not talking about denying the words (or commands) of Jesus. In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[dcontroversal]

They're their own worst enemies. It's almost as if Ronald Reagan is standing aside the computer window, saying, "There you go, again!" They cite the very verse, which condemns the false gospels they advocate. They tell people the accursed lies, then prove, by scripture, they are accursed. How does that work?

Oh I know.....seems like a regular occurrence......and the very falsities that they espouse condemns them to the core......and the bible is clear.........

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US ALL, how shall he not WITH HIM also FREELY give us ALL things.......

Pretty simple at the end of the day........FREE is FREE and those who think they have to earn it, keep it, work for it have no clue as to what the word FREE means.......nor the words ALL THINGS.......

They will be in the group that goes before Jesus bragging and boasting about what they have done as their right to enter the KINGDOM and Jesus will say...get lost I never knew you...which goes to the root of their supposed salvation...they never had it because they believed into a gospel of a different kind which had no power to save.........the difference between heteros and allos........!

 

[dcontroversal]

I think Inspirit would agree with my post as well, so dont try to use my post to condemn him as if he missed some sort of deep truth here

I do not recall posting that to him.....so maybe you should step back and come down off your high horse.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul was talking about the outward obedience to circumcision from the Law of Moses (Which was done away with when Christ died upon the cross) (Hebrews 8:13). Christians today are not lawless or under no Law whatsoever. Christians obey the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). Paul was not talking about denying the words (or commands) of Jesus. In fact, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Whatever Jason....NOT BY works of righteousness which we have done......not of works lest any man should boast....not made complete by the works of the flesh....anyway you want to twist it really doesn't matter....man is saved by the faith of Jesus...not his own works, fleshly will, righteous works etc.....you believe you can lose it then you have to do something to regain it period....no matter how much you deny it!

 

[Jason0047]

Not going to belabor the concept of OSAS............you can read through my few comments to see my thoughts, and we are all entitled to our thoughts/beliefs. My only comment is that the embolden part of your comment is a common misunderstanding of Paul's teaching here.............in my opinion...........

The precious blood of Jesus redeems us from ALL SINS.......past, present, and future.........He died ONCE for all time. Those as I spoke of will suffer for their sins in the flesh.......and Christ will not be sacrificed again......just my thoughts

But, this can go on and on and on, and I have given my stance/beliefs........should suffice.

God bless

What I said to you was pretty much copied and pasted directly from Hebrews 6:4-6. I merely changed the grammar of the words so that the passage was referring to him. Also, where in Scripture does it ever teach future sin is forgiven? If that is the case, then how can you be forgiven of sin by confessing sin if you are already forgiven of sin automatically? (See 1 John 1:9).

Anyways, I thank you for being kind with your words.
It is very refreshing.

I appreciate that.
And may God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Sirk]

I wont start my premises on this OSAS catch phrase doctrine of men but examining the denying the faith of Christ (as the scripture speaks of the same).

I try to stay with the scripture and let the scripture prove something out for me.

oh Ya.....you're as fair and balanced as George stephanopalous.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I do not recall posting that to him.....so maybe you should step back and come down off your high horse.....

That is true you would never take a dig at him through me, you are far better then that