OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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Jason I might not agree with everything you share even as you are aware well aware that I have had you on ignore for quite some time till just recently, but theres one thing you have going for you, the way you always respond. That would even cause me pause, and its that is you always respond to such nastiness in a way which I believe glorifies God. If only just in that I might agree.
I do want to at least encourage you in that.
Thats something I covet in you for myself.
I let it affect me inwardly and I believe when I let it that will naturally spill out into my responses.
You set a good example in that (even though I hate to admit it, you really do).
You are often by yourself being jumped on from all sides (right or wrong) regardless you are doing something right, and I hope you find it encouraging to know others do perceive this (even those, who like me have disagareed with you) and who can give you a kudos in that which commendable in any man of God.
Thats all I will say
I do want to at least encourage you in that.
Thats something I covet in you for myself.
I let it affect me inwardly and I believe when I let it that will naturally spill out into my responses.
You set a good example in that (even though I hate to admit it, you really do).
You are often by yourself being jumped on from all sides (right or wrong) regardless you are doing something right, and I hope you find it encouraging to know others do perceive this (even those, who like me have disagareed with you) and who can give you a kudos in that which commendable in any man of God.
Thats all I will say
So regardless that these men in the book of Jude are described as their condemnation was written about long ago, they are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord, they are as spots in your love feasts, they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves, clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead/doubly dead, uprooted, devoid of the Spirit, you believe they were "saved" and "lost their salvation?"
In this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). This parable does not say "twice dead."
In this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). This parable does not say "twice dead."
So, your position is that the false prophet has perfect saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, is in fact saved and given Eternal Life, but then is entangled in the pollutions of the world and the Lord can't hang on to them anymore?
And they have lost their salvation and become false prophets?
If they have knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and they know the way of righteousness how did they become false prophets? Did they un-know the knowledge of the Lord and forget the way of righteousness?
I suppose you are missing that all important "if", the second word of that verse. I wonder why that is in there? It shouldn't be, should it?
And they have lost their salvation and become false prophets?
If they have knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and they know the way of righteousness how did they become false prophets? Did they un-know the knowledge of the Lord and forget the way of righteousness?
I suppose you are missing that all important "if", the second word of that verse. I wonder why that is in there? It shouldn't be, should it?
Amen! In Hebrews 12:7, we read - It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
The Amplifed Bible explains verse 8 very clearly. Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]. NEVER WERE. If we are without discipline then we are not true sons at all. Verse 9 - Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? All of God's children share in discipline (it is for discipline that we endure - vs. 7) and illegitimate offspring are left without discipline. No loss of sonship here. Only God's children who receive discipline and illegitimate offspring who don't and are not true sons at all.
The Amplifed Bible explains verse 8 very clearly. Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]. NEVER WERE. If we are without discipline then we are not true sons at all. Verse 9 - Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? All of God's children share in discipline (it is for discipline that we endure - vs. 7) and illegitimate offspring are left without discipline. No loss of sonship here. Only God's children who receive discipline and illegitimate offspring who don't and are not true sons at all.
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No you did not do the exact same thing in any way shape or form, you went on about repping me. And when I didnt understand and ask about what (exactly) you somehow liked after sending another mixed message, you couldnt really say (straight forwardly). You only made mention of a cartoon rep (big deal) and you (personally) werent really talking to me after you were telling about some pastors lecture (of receiving and giving a compliment via flattery) and it wasnt your words but his choice of them I was rejecting. I was encouraging someone who is an example of the kind of good behavior (when constantly nailed as he is) and doesnt change in the face of what he encounters. Even I must look up and take notice, whatever he has its working (on his part when it comes to self control and patience and kindness) it screams fruit of the Spirit while everyone else just looks like reprobates (sorry) I even hate to admit it but his example is above many others here.
If I was in search of a teacher, he screams fruit and some folks here are just making him look better (unfortunately).
If I was in search of a teacher, he screams fruit and some folks here are just making him look better (unfortunately).
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As for Hebrews 13:5 that says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you":
Well, this is obviously in reference to the faithful believer only.
For if you look at the verse previously it says,
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
This lets us know that believers cannot be whoremongers or adulterers because they will be judged by God.
This is consistent with what the rest of the Biblical warnings to those people who commit various different sins:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
So, that obviously doesn’t mean you can go out and be a fornicaor, adulterer, or a coveter and not fear that God will never leave you.
Still not convinced?
Read this quick quote from David to his son Solomon.
“And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD” (1 Chronicles 28:20).
Sounds unconditional? Right? Well, if that’s where you start and finish. However, let's read a few verses prior.
“And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it” (1 Chronicles 28:9-10).
Did you catch that? It says, "but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever."
For Scripture is clear that we as Christians have to be strong and do the work of righteousness and not just accept the promises if we don’t want to be forsaken (Romans 2:13) (James 1:22-25) (James 2:22-26).
In the Old Testament, the Spirit of God departed from Saul. When David sinned, he cried out to God so as not to take His Holy Spirit from him.
1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
Yeah, but what about the "seal" that cannot be broken? Well, for one, Ephesians does not say the seal cannot be broken. Second, "circumcision" was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
Why is this is important? Well, this seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
So as you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
In fact, God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts,as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Well, this is obviously in reference to the faithful believer only.
For if you look at the verse previously it says,
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
This lets us know that believers cannot be whoremongers or adulterers because they will be judged by God.
This is consistent with what the rest of the Biblical warnings to those people who commit various different sins:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
So, that obviously doesn’t mean you can go out and be a fornicaor, adulterer, or a coveter and not fear that God will never leave you.
Still not convinced?
Read this quick quote from David to his son Solomon.
“And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD” (1 Chronicles 28:20).
Sounds unconditional? Right? Well, if that’s where you start and finish. However, let's read a few verses prior.
“And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it” (1 Chronicles 28:9-10).
Did you catch that? It says, "but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever."
For Scripture is clear that we as Christians have to be strong and do the work of righteousness and not just accept the promises if we don’t want to be forsaken (Romans 2:13) (James 1:22-25) (James 2:22-26).
In the Old Testament, the Spirit of God departed from Saul. When David sinned, he cried out to God so as not to take His Holy Spirit from him.
1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
Yeah, but what about the "seal" that cannot be broken? Well, for one, Ephesians does not say the seal cannot be broken. Second, "circumcision" was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
Why is this is important? Well, this seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
So as you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
In fact, God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts,as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
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I agree with the scriptures you all dont, look at all the gymnastics that are being done against the scriptures
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
I prayed about this once, a few years back. Some of the detractors of Salvation brought up scripture that seemed to contradict the Power of God and His Salvation. So I asked the Lord Jesus "Can we lose our salvation?". A lot of the time the Lord doesn't answer. Or sometimes He takes a long time to answer and I have to keep asking over and over. But this time His Answer was immediate. I will never leave you nor forsake you.
Pretty awesome, huh?
JASON..it is not talking about criminals...and God is clear...CHASTISMENT comes ONLY to SONS who are disobedient and IN SIN....IF chastisement does not come when they are in SIN they are NOT a SON.....
Go read the word....GOD CHASTENS EVERY SON whom he RECEIVES and if without CHASTENING they are NOT A SON.....it is clear....Children who SIN or walk in SIN are chastened as OPPOSED to LOSING SALVATION!
Go read the word....GOD CHASTENS EVERY SON whom he RECEIVES and if without CHASTENING they are NOT A SON.....it is clear....Children who SIN or walk in SIN are chastened as OPPOSED to LOSING SALVATION!