OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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The Holy Spirit will never leave nor forsake those who have trusted Christ to save them. The Holy Spirit is the seal whereby they are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and God will send tribulation and chastisement upon believers who sin. First half of your post is biblical and the second half is wholly untrue. To believe what you state is to be double minded and unstable.
Salvation once done is done forever. Sanctification is a life long process and is complete only when we are glorified together with Christ. All stumble and some forsake the way but God remains faithful. God restores and chastises in His wisdom to glorify Himself.
The red herring here is that those who have the new creation and the new nature in Christ do not do what you accuse them of doing. Perhaps you see these things in yourself but believers do not have two masters. As is often the case one is better taking care of their own estate as opposed to telling others what they ought or ought not to do.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and God will send tribulation and chastisement upon believers who sin. First half of your post is biblical and the second half is wholly untrue. To believe what you state is to be double minded and unstable.
Salvation once done is done forever. Sanctification is a life long process and is complete only when we are glorified together with Christ. All stumble and some forsake the way but God remains faithful. God restores and chastises in His wisdom to glorify Himself.
The red herring here is that those who have the new creation and the new nature in Christ do not do what you accuse them of doing. Perhaps you see these things in yourself but believers do not have two masters. As is often the case one is better taking care of their own estate as opposed to telling others what they ought or ought not to do.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The very thought that we have to obey to love people reveals an unrenewed mind.
There is plenty of Scripture that indicate once you believe you are saved. They are very few that indicate the opposite is true.
And even more twisted is the fact that those who believe you can lose your salvation are often the most unloving. But they feel in their heart they are justified because they are "being loving" by telling everyone else they have to try hard to keep their salvation. But because these people don't understand who they are in Christ (which is why they aren't OSAS) they are still working instead of bearing fruit.
Jesus' ministry started the moment He knew He His Father was well pleased with Him.
Other people think they have to wait until the end of their life to know this. As a result, they do not know how to share the love of God since they are still trying to earn it. And we can only give what we receive.
C.
There is plenty of Scripture that indicate once you believe you are saved. They are very few that indicate the opposite is true.
And even more twisted is the fact that those who believe you can lose your salvation are often the most unloving. But they feel in their heart they are justified because they are "being loving" by telling everyone else they have to try hard to keep their salvation. But because these people don't understand who they are in Christ (which is why they aren't OSAS) they are still working instead of bearing fruit.
Jesus' ministry started the moment He knew He His Father was well pleased with Him.
Other people think they have to wait until the end of their life to know this. As a result, they do not know how to share the love of God since they are still trying to earn it. And we can only give what we receive.
C.
Couple of thoughts to consider;
The parable of sowing seeds...........and the examples given
The Epistle to the Galatians
Jesus speaking of "those who endure"
Jesus spoke of a great falling away.........of love waxing cold I believe
The usual response to this issue by those who believe in OSAS is that those who fall away, turn from God were never saved to begin with.............that is an "easy out" in my opinion only I suppose. Easier to believe that than to believe in the precious God given gift of "free will."
OSAS is almost..................I say ALMOST the same ideology as Calvinism, not quite, but very close. I don't accept Calvin's theology either.
Now.........LET ME SAY THIS.......for all who believe in OSAS........ok, it is your God given right, but please be sure to strive to stay in obedience to Him rather than believe one can do as they wish and still go to heaven.
Disobedience to God and rebellion from God is not the "way" to heaven in my opinion.
The parable of sowing seeds...........and the examples given
The Epistle to the Galatians
Jesus speaking of "those who endure"
Jesus spoke of a great falling away.........of love waxing cold I believe
The usual response to this issue by those who believe in OSAS is that those who fall away, turn from God were never saved to begin with.............that is an "easy out" in my opinion only I suppose. Easier to believe that than to believe in the precious God given gift of "free will."
OSAS is almost..................I say ALMOST the same ideology as Calvinism, not quite, but very close. I don't accept Calvin's theology either.
Now.........LET ME SAY THIS.......for all who believe in OSAS........ok, it is your God given right, but please be sure to strive to stay in obedience to Him rather than believe one can do as they wish and still go to heaven.
Disobedience to God and rebellion from God is not the "way" to heaven in my opinion.
I certainly don't teach a license to sin/lawlessness. As John gives the test of those who are truly born again. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
In 1 John 2:3, we read - 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. Of course the word "keep" does not mean sinless perfect obedience to ALL of Christ's commandments 100% of the time. The word, "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve.
In 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Obedience, as we can see then is the demonstrative evidence that we are born of God, but we don't want to swing the pendulum too far in the wrong direction and teach salvation by works. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and they were extreme advocates of NOSAS and salvation by works. Their logic is that salvation is "attained" by works and "maintained" by works. That is not in agreement with salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
Taking away is physical death not Spiritual death.
The branches who are not in the vine are not saved. They are not the branches that are purged to bring forth more fruit. These branches never were in the vine and never had any fruit. If you blur the branches you will not arrive at the correct understanding of this passage.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your right! It's not by works of righteousness in which we have done. Titus 3:5 is absolutely rock solid and true. We are saved by His mercy and by the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. Now, read Ezekiel 36:26-27. What does it say? Well, it essentially says God will give you a new heart and a new spirit and He will then put His Spirit within you whereby He will cause you to walk in His statutes (Commands). In other words, as I said to you many times before, it is God who does the work in you. The answer is... "not you." For it's why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.
As for losing salvation: Well, salvation cannot be lost like I might lose a pair of car keys. However, a person can forfeit their salvation by willingly choosing of their own free will to rebel against God or Christ. For the BIble has always taught that sin is separation from God. Some of you here think that is not possible for a believer to reject God because some here think that God only chooses those who will turn out to be faithful to Him only. Others here think that no sin will be charged to their account and one or two unrepentant sins are not going to send them to Hell as long as they are faithful over a few things. As if God grades on a curve of man doing really evil things.
As for losing salvation: Well, salvation cannot be lost like I might lose a pair of car keys. However, a person can forfeit their salvation by willingly choosing of their own free will to rebel against God or Christ. For the BIble has always taught that sin is separation from God. Some of you here think that is not possible for a believer to reject God because some here think that God only chooses those who will turn out to be faithful to Him only. Others here think that no sin will be charged to their account and one or two unrepentant sins are not going to send them to Hell as long as they are faithful over a few things. As if God grades on a curve of man doing really evil things.
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D
In a thread where the Vine gets pruned and the cast forth branches go to the soapy water bucket I must say theres not much here to keep going with except to let it degrade into blossoms of the what is understood to be holiness.
So I will step out of this thread unless I feel there is something worthy to comment on.
So I will step out of this thread unless I feel there is something worthy to comment on.
(1) wrong.
(2) it only takes one (and you admit there are "few")
(3) wrong and wrong. Scripture says that even the demons believe
(God uses that as an example in Scripture)
to show that [ONLY|JUST|BARE MENTAL] believing by itself
DOES NOT INDICATE SAVED NOR UNSAVED.
because outside, carnal, and white-washed tombs can keep continuing to post in all these threads,
nothing in this site/ forum tends towards holiness. you may aim that way, so for a brief few seconds it is good, but then the outsiders clobber it back down..... (there appears to be no way to remedy that)...
no worries at all. "IF" you were fair and balanced, you'd be as lost as the world is (and as lost as the posters who keep attacking Jesus' people....)
(2) it only takes one (and you admit there are "few")
(3) wrong and wrong. Scripture says that even the demons believe
(God uses that as an example in Scripture)
to show that [ONLY|JUST|BARE MENTAL] believing by itself
DOES NOT INDICATE SAVED NOR UNSAVED.
because outside, carnal, and white-washed tombs can keep continuing to post in all these threads,
nothing in this site/ forum tends towards holiness. you may aim that way, so for a brief few seconds it is good, but then the outsiders clobber it back down..... (there appears to be no way to remedy that)...
no worries at all. "IF" you were fair and balanced, you'd be as lost as the world is (and as lost as the posters who keep attacking Jesus' people....)
Let's use a Scripture that many people like to refer to combat OSAS....
1 Co 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Usually people stop here. But the next verse tells the real story of OSAS...
11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Washed - Soapy bucket anyone?
Sanctified - Were sanctified - not being.
Justified - Were justified - just as if it didn't happen.
By Christ and His Spirit.
Scripture points out what we shouldn't be doing, but it always leads us to WHO WE NOW ARE...
That's why Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Jesus changed your tree. And when you AGREE that you're a new creation. And the old has passed away and the new has come... you start to PROVE the WILL OF GOD for YOU.
Romans 12:2 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
What are you RENEWING YOUR MIND TO?
THE GOSPEL!
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[SUP]a[/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[SUP]b[/SUP] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You're now in Christ Jesus and alive to God. And because of this "tree change" you bear fruit naturally. What fruit? The fruit of the Spirit. Stop trying to work for it. Rest in what He has done. And let His good works THAT HE PREPARED come naturally.
Ephesians 2:10 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
C.
1 Co 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Usually people stop here. But the next verse tells the real story of OSAS...
11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Washed - Soapy bucket anyone?
Sanctified - Were sanctified - not being.
Justified - Were justified - just as if it didn't happen.
By Christ and His Spirit.
Scripture points out what we shouldn't be doing, but it always leads us to WHO WE NOW ARE...
That's why Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Jesus changed your tree. And when you AGREE that you're a new creation. And the old has passed away and the new has come... you start to PROVE the WILL OF GOD for YOU.
Romans 12:2 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
What are you RENEWING YOUR MIND TO?
THE GOSPEL!
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[SUP]a[/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[SUP]b[/SUP] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You're now in Christ Jesus and alive to God. And because of this "tree change" you bear fruit naturally. What fruit? The fruit of the Spirit. Stop trying to work for it. Rest in what He has done. And let His good works THAT HE PREPARED come naturally.
Ephesians 2:10 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
C.