When does the rapture occur?
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S
Originally Posted by Pumicestone
So many Christians - so many different opinions. And no doubt all sincere and well thought-out.
What a pity the "message' could not have been made crystal clear and unambiguous.
Excellent, Fang !
He deliberately made the truth hard to find (?) but you were smart enough to find it.
What about the rest of us mere mortals ?
So many Christians - so many different opinions. And no doubt all sincere and well thought-out.
What a pity the "message' could not have been made crystal clear and unambiguous.
Excellent, Fang !
He deliberately made the truth hard to find (?) but you were smart enough to find it.
What about the rest of us mere mortals ?
Just where exactly do any of the quoted scriptures say anything about being snatched alive off the planet, transformed and whisked off to heaven??? Help me, because I don't see it.
If I keep you from a fight, do I have to fly you to heaven to do it???
Did God have to fly the Children of Israel to heaven to get them away from Pharaoh?
Was Lot flown off to heaven?
Was Rahab?
Was David flown off to heaven when Saul wanted to kill him?
Was Paul flown off to heaven to escape Damascus?
Was Noah flown to heaven?
Even your so call rapture verses don't say a word about anyone being taken back to heaven. CONJECTURE, CONJECTURE and CONJECTURE.
If I keep you from a fight, do I have to fly you to heaven to do it???
Did God have to fly the Children of Israel to heaven to get them away from Pharaoh?
Was Lot flown off to heaven?
Was Rahab?
Was David flown off to heaven when Saul wanted to kill him?
Was Paul flown off to heaven to escape Damascus?
Was Noah flown to heaven?
Even your so call rapture verses don't say a word about anyone being taken back to heaven. CONJECTURE, CONJECTURE and CONJECTURE.
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People read the below unlinked passages and invent a fly away doctrine.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
John 14: [SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Rev 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
1 Thes 5: [SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]10 [/SUP]who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
The funny thing about this is none of these verses speak of a trip back to heaven. NONE OF THEM. When the LORD returns where will He be? Here or heaven? When the LORD returns HE WILL BE HERE, not in HEAVEN. He is coming back HERE.
The "HOUR OF TRIAL" is not defined. But the passage states that we must keep his command to preserve. Preserve from what? A period before the Tribulation when everything is fine?
Then avoiding God's Wrath as a way to prove a fly away doctrine is my favorite. First, the Tribulation isn't God's Wrath which comes when the Lord is revealed from Heaven. Second, look at the context of the passage. In 5:2 Paul makes clear he is speaking of the Day of the Lord. In Verse 4 he tells us that we are not in darkness, meaning we will know meaning we are here, watching and waiting and being sober. If we were raptured, there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming - Day of the Lord because we would already be with Him.
Common Sense.
1 Thes 4: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
John 14: [SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Rev 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
1 Thes 5: [SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]10 [/SUP]who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
The funny thing about this is none of these verses speak of a trip back to heaven. NONE OF THEM. When the LORD returns where will He be? Here or heaven? When the LORD returns HE WILL BE HERE, not in HEAVEN. He is coming back HERE.
The "HOUR OF TRIAL" is not defined. But the passage states that we must keep his command to preserve. Preserve from what? A period before the Tribulation when everything is fine?
Then avoiding God's Wrath as a way to prove a fly away doctrine is my favorite. First, the Tribulation isn't God's Wrath which comes when the Lord is revealed from Heaven. Second, look at the context of the passage. In 5:2 Paul makes clear he is speaking of the Day of the Lord. In Verse 4 he tells us that we are not in darkness, meaning we will know meaning we are here, watching and waiting and being sober. If we were raptured, there would be no need to watch for the Second Coming - Day of the Lord because we would already be with Him.
Common Sense.
F
"...caught up together with them in the clouds" = "fly away."
It doesn't mean "not fly away."
"The hour of trial," like anything, is defined by its context. It's not that hard.
Philadelphia, like the other of the last 4 city churches, is a prophecy of the church
at the time of His return. "I come quickly" Rv 3:11.
("until I come" 2:25; "come as a thief" 3:3).
Rv 3:10 corresponds to "Be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape
all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" our Lord's word
recorded in Lk 21:36, also the context of the last 3 1/2 years of this age.
The particular posters are accurate, however, that most Christians will not be raptured
(Latin, Vulgate, "raptio" Rv 12:5; etc) before the final 3 1/2 years. But rather at its end
12:14; 14:16.
It doesn't mean "not fly away."
"The hour of trial," like anything, is defined by its context. It's not that hard.
Philadelphia, like the other of the last 4 city churches, is a prophecy of the church
at the time of His return. "I come quickly" Rv 3:11.
("until I come" 2:25; "come as a thief" 3:3).
Rv 3:10 corresponds to "Be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape
all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man" our Lord's word
recorded in Lk 21:36, also the context of the last 3 1/2 years of this age.
The particular posters are accurate, however, that most Christians will not be raptured
(Latin, Vulgate, "raptio" Rv 12:5; etc) before the final 3 1/2 years. But rather at its end
12:14; 14:16.
"Don't worry --- God will take care of that..." 
I have not seen any evidence of 'Church' or 'Israel' doing anything like this - even symbolically or allegorically - past, present, or future...
I have not seen any evidence of 'Church' or 'Israel' doing anything like this - even symbolically or allegorically - past, present, or future...
Luke 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.
Luke 10: [SUP]19 [/SUP]Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
So both OT and NT contain such a power over enemies.
Jer 5:14 Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.
Compare to the 2 witnesses:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses... [SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
There are clearly similarities. We have enormous power, armed with the truth and God's Word. We have ability to do all kinds of things as Children of God. Sadly, virtually none of us use these powers or even know how to use them, myself included. It could be a matter of faith or it could be we don't even try. There is enormous power in prayer and most true believers have seen this power in action, including myself.
As for the 2 witnesses, it is my view that they are the church and Israel. I have also heard they are the OT and NT. Regardless, I don't think we will see literal fire breathing men. The whole passage is written in apocalyptic literary style. Everything is symbolic. If we do and I am wrong, I will come back on here with hat in hand.
Yeah, I think I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one Bob. Being caught up in the clouds is not the same thing as being transformed and whisked off to heaven. You will not find anything in 1 Thes 4 that even says we are transformed there. The only passage that I am aware of that discussing the living being transformed is in 1 Cor 15:51-52 but that passage doesn't mention anything about being caught up into clouds.
Being caught up in the clouds is not the same thing as being transformed and whisked off to heaven. You will not find anything in 1 Thes 4 that even says we are transformed there. The only passage that I am aware of that discussing the living being transformed is in 1 Cor 15:51-52 but that passage doesn't mention anything about being caught up into clouds.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The truth is that This Quran is the 666 , The Book from The Lord of the Universe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]GOD made His Messenger a witness with the letter Qaf and the number 666."
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Allah" = 666 (link to this spot)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]On the Zola Levitt program, Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist now Christian evangelist, said that when he saw the Greek symbol that is translated in the Bible as 666, he immediately read it as the Arabic character “Bismillah” (some spell Bismilla) which means "in the name of Allah." (Though it looks more like the character for "Allah").[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here's a seven minute video of Walid Shoebat on 666 at a different venue:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Below (left) are photos of Greek symbols translated in the Bible as 666, from Free Jesus.net: The gold symbol (bottom and right) is Arabic for "Allah" when turned and mirrored. Additionally, crossed swords are a symbol for Islam. So in 666 we may find symbols for both "Islam" and "Allah".[/FONT]
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F
"Raptured" in the New Testament = caught up. As in 1 Thes 4:16-17 and Rv 12:5; 14:1; and 14:15.
Rapture (or ascent) doesn't depend on the destination, whether heavens or clouds.
Rather it simply refers to the act of being taken up. It's not that difficult or complicated.
Nor does rapture depend on transfiguration. Although they intersect in some instances,
rapture and transfiguration are not synonyms in the apostles' teaching.
Rapture (or ascent) doesn't depend on the destination, whether heavens or clouds.
Rather it simply refers to the act of being taken up. It's not that difficult or complicated.
Nor does rapture depend on transfiguration. Although they intersect in some instances,
rapture and transfiguration are not synonyms in the apostles' teaching.
C
I tend to not follow a link when someone is making a theological "argument" or interpretation, not because I'm scared of viruses, but I want to make sure of the facts first. So what I did is I went and looked up the greek symbols for 6, 60, and 600.
I cannot say I don't find them similar. As such, I withdraw objections, but I need to look into this more. Thanks for bringing it up.
I cannot say I don't find them similar. As such, I withdraw objections, but I need to look into this more.
Thanks for bringing it up.
K
The problem is that Revelation 19:1 and 19:7 shows that the marriage of the Lamb and marriage supper takes place after the events of the tribulation period. For 19:1 clearly says after these things, as the previous chapters were speaking of the events of the tribulation period including the 3 1/2 years called the great tribulation.
By Revelation alone we can see the marriage and marriage supper comes after the tribulation and not before it.........