OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Sirk]

Look. People can say whatever they like and or twist the Word of God however they like. A man who preaches a prosperity gospel can twist the Bible and say others are wrong for not believing as he does. The difference is can a person ignore their moral compass God gave them? Can a person ignore the fact that they cannot make a real world example out of OSAS? Then to top it off, there are all the warnings in the Bible that we are not to sin. For take a step back and actually think about what actually means to be good or evil. Can you honestly say you have the true peace and love in your heart from God if you condone or allow for a little bit of sin to take place in your life? Check the fruit in your life. Examine whether or not you are in Christ (2 Corinthians 13:5). Do you tend to hate others with your words and deeds? Again, I relate people being addicted to their sin as if they are addicted to alcoholism. For they are both wrong addictions and both are evil. So folks here are basically saying they are not alcoholics but yet they can still drink and or still be a slave to the demon that is within their bottle. However, Jesus said if you sin, you are slave to sin. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. So choose this day whom ye will serve.

Blah blah blah....blah blah bah. I can't discern your words. They must be too "spiritual" for me

 

[tribesman]

Look. People can say whatever they like and or twist the Word of God however they like. A man who preaches a prosperity gospel can twist the Bible and say others are wrong for not believing as he does...

And that would also include false teachers such as sinless perfectionists, finneyites, wesleyans and all others who have a shallow sin concept and hypocritically condemns various sins of others, but just not their own sins. Over and out.

 

[Skinski7]

Would you care to address the passage WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the passage?
...
You ALWAYS leave out verses 3-21 in which Peter sets up VERSES 22-23 and finishes in chapter 2 verse 9.

Verses 3-21 do not undo the truth revealed in verses 22-23. The context does not nullify purity of heart being the outcome of obedience to the truth through the Spirit.

What is your issue?

Let us look at the text.

Peter opens with...

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Identifies himself and who he is writing to.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Recognises election due to the forknowledge of God, manifested through the being set apart by the Spirit unto obedience and touching the blood for cleansing.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Acknowledges God's mercy resulting in the new birth and the hope for being resurrected from the dead.
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, speaks of eternal life.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Acknowledges that the power of God is manifested through our faith unto the full measure of salvation (ie. ultimately eternal life)

Does anything written by Peter above undo the fact that new babes in Christ have had their souls purified by obedience to the truth and that they love one another with a pure heart fervently? Is there?

Let's continue...

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: Peter now speaks of the time of testing, the wilderness experience.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Our faith is put in trial, we are tested.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Here Peter states that we love God. Peter also states that we rejoice in conjunction to believing despite the fact we do not physically see God with our eyes.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Peter again refers to eternal life as in verse 5, the outcome of an enduring faith.

So far Peter has basically alluded to the power of God working through our faith and how we are to endure a difficult road of testing, the outcome of is eternal life.

Has he said a single word that nullifies that babes in Christ have purified their souls through obedience to the truth or that they love one another with pure hearts fervently? No he hasn't. Peter has not defended that anyone can sin and not surely die anywhere. Peter has not defended any notion that eternal life is a done deal for anyone, he has clearly emphasised the trial of faith and how it is tested for the purpose that we MIGHT be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. This is how Paul explained the same thing in Romans...

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Conduct matters.

Paul writes...

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

We have to run the race and be overcomers. John wrote...

1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Conduct matters, we have to DO the will of God.

Let us continue with Peter...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Peter again refers to eternal life as in verse 5, the outcome of an enduring faith.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: The prophets of old sought this salvation and they prophesied of the New Covenant.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. It is the New Covenant generation who gets to witness the full manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ baptises with fire. This was held back under the Old Covenant because the means of remitting past sin, and thus the means of reconciliation, was not active yet, it was something hoped for.

Is there anything is that section which nullifies that new born babes have purified their souls through obedience to the truth by the Spirit? Is there anything there that nullifies loving one another with pure hearts fervently?

Is there anything written by Peter so far which teaches that the new birth is not inclusive of purity of heart? No there is not, not a work. Let us continue...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Here Peter emphatically admonishes people to endure the time of testing. Gird is a word we don't use much today but it means "surround" or "immerse." We are to immerse our minds in Jesus Christ and be sober minded, we are to remain hopeful to the end for the ultimate manifestation of grace at the final revealing of Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: Here Peter plainly states that obedience is an essential aspect of this. We are not to conform ourselves according to the FORMER lusts of when we were ignorant. The OSAS folk ignore this verse too because they don't teach an "escape of the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Pet 1:4)"
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; The word translated "conversation" in the Greek is "anastrophē" and it means behaviour or conduct. Deeds matter.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Se we have read up to verse 16.

Have I explained anything away, have I twisted any scripture?

Has Peter said a single word which negates that babes in Christ have purified their souls through obedience to the truth and that they are to love one another with pure hearts fervently?

Had Peter said a single word that negates purity of heart being connected to the new birth?

No he hasn't. He has spoken of the outcome of endurance which is eternal life. He has spoken of how we are to emmerse our minds in Jesus Christ and be sober minded, how we are to be holy in ALL MANNER of our conduct. Where is any room for willful sin in that? There is none. These things Peter is speaking of are not optional, they are mandatory and being emphasised by a man who was taught directly by Jesus Christ.

Let us continue...

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Again it is stated that God's judges all men according to their DEEDS, due to this we are to pass our time here in fear.

Why would Peter say this if OSAS is true? You will NEVER hear a proponent of OSAS tell people that GOd will judge them in accordance to their deeds and that therefore they ought to fear God.

Jesus said this...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Solomon wrote this...

Ecc_12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Peter wrote...

1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Job feared God...

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The doctrines of OSAS and Penal Substitution destroy a fear of God in people because they become convinced that they can sin and get away with it.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT. That is a condition. OSAS people deny that. OSAS people completely ignore passages like that. OSAS people do not believe what the Bible actually teaches.

Let us continue...

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; Here Peter speaks of how Christians have been redeemed from their vain conduct ("conversation" = "anastrophē" = conduct/behaviour) via the blood of Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Peter is speaking of our union with God through Christ here.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Seeing YE HAVE (past tense) purified your souls. This has taken place, and due to this having taken place we are to make sure that we love one another with a pure heart fervently. In other words KEEP THE FAITH AND BE DOERS because we have been purified.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Here Peter plainly connects the purification of the soul with the new birth. We are born again of God.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: Our flesh and this world is temporary, it will pass away.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. God's word will not pass away.

Now let's go into chapter 2...

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, "Wherefore" is an allusion to what Peter has just written in the last chapter. In other words, "because of these things" laying (an ongoing action) ALL malice, ALL guile, ALL hypoocrisy, ALL envies, ALL evil speakings.

Sarah, do you somehow think that verse 1 is an allusion to purity of heart not being connected to a genuien salvation? Do you somehow thing that because Peter uses the term "laying aside" as an ongoing action that somehow he is meanign that babes in Christ have not yet laid these things aside and have yet to do so in the future? Are you thinking that Peter is teaching that one gets "saved in sin" and is still inwardly wicked and saved at the same time awaiting for some kind of inward transformation down the road? Peter is not teaching any such thing. Just read the verse for what it says and look at the whole context.

(cont...)

 

[Jason0047]

So, you don't know Annika at all?

Who? Don't know who that is.

 

[Skinski7]

(...cont)


Let's continue...

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: Here it is revealed that everything Peter has been saying has been directed at newborn babes. That is new Christian's. This one verse when read in its full context of everything written previously completely destroys both Calvinism (never purified whilst in the flesh) and Arminianism/Wesleyianism (only purified after a second work of grace later down the road).

I have never seen a Calvinist or an Arminian make the connection between 1Pet 2:2 and 1Pet 1:22-23. It is plain as day in the text but false theologies wreak havoc on the mind and make one blind to the obvious.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. Here Peter speaks of "if so" which I think is a good reason for people to examine themselves to see if they are in fact in the faith. There is no point in "growing in the word" if one has not truly tasted the grace of the Lord. Not just felt or been influenced by God's grace but actually partaken of it. Approaching God in the correct manner initially is essential which is why Jesus alluded to a strait gate and narrow way which FEW FIND.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. This is our purpose, to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. How anyone can possibly conceive that one can be a holy priesthood and still be inwardly defiled is beyond me.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. A building is dependent on the cornerstone for all the other stones are measured and set in accordance with the cornerstone.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, Peter clearly rules out disobedience in the church here. The disobedient are rejecting the cornerstone, a building without a cornerstone will not be structurally sound because it has no standard to order its construction.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Take note that Peter mentions people who stunble at the word being disobedient. The true doctrine of Jesus Christ is offensive to many people. The notion that one has to forsake ALL evil and yield wholeheartedly to God is very offensive to many people because it requires them to forsake everything, it requires a death to this life in order to find life. Not many are willing to entertain such a message.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Christians are a peculiar people who have been called out of darkness into the light.

Peculiar.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Christians are peculiar because we have been redeemed from ALL iniquity and made pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing. Christian's have pure hearts, we are not workers of iniquity. The OSAS people ignore all this, they NEVER contend for it. All they contend for is "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the finished work of the cross" but it is another Jesus and another cross, not the on'e of the Bible.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. We have obtained mercy.

Who obtains mercy?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
I very much doubt that any of the sin defenders will address Pro 28:13. It is one of those inconvenient verses to them which is to be ignored completely. Their position is without foundation, all they have is rhetoric, a few out of context proof texts and patting each other on the back in their delusion.


Conclusion

So there you go Sarah, I cared enough to address 1Pet 1:22-23 in the full context of its passage. Does the meaning of what it plainly states change?

At least now you cannot say I "always" leave out verses 3-21 and this post will make a good reference point.

I'll add one more statement written by Peter...


2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Jason0047]

So, you don't know Annika at all?

Also, you can keep going down the list of people (that you think I know that I probably don't know). But you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not going to work. The Bible makes it very clear that there are conditional statements in it (That any reader can read for themself). Let's take a simple one. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by your Father. Now, I do believe a saint is born again spiritually when they repent of their sins and accept Christ. They have a new heart with new desires. But this does not mean their free will is gone in choosing to serve the Lord or not in choosing to serve the Lord. If God put many conditional statements in His Word like the verse that says you must forgive in order to be forgiven, it would be redundant or pointless to mention such a fact because all born again believers are just going to automatically forgive, right? Kind of defeats having a Word of God in the first place.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, you can keep going down the list of people (that you think I know that I probably don't know). But you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not going to work. The Bible makes it very clear that there are conditional statements in it (That any reader can read for themself). Let's take a simple one. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by your Father. Now, I do believe a saint is born again spiritually when they repent of their sins and accept Christ. They have a new heart with new desires. But this does not mean their free will is gone in choosing to serve the Lord or not in choosing to serve the Lord. If God put many conditional statements in His Word like the verse that says you must forgive in order to be forgiven, it would be redundant or pointless to mention such a fact because all born again believers are just going to automatically forgive, right? Kind of defeats having a Word of God in the first place.

In other words, if your version of the Bible was true, it would only say....

"...and those who accepted Christ will forgive just as their father forgives them."​

But the Bible does not say that alone. The Scriptures say if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father. It's a conditional statement letting you know there are consequences in not forgiving. So basically this verse does not apply to the believer is what you are saying. And it would be pointless for Christ to tell people such a thing if they were to just automatically were to do so.

 

[Chica]

Yeah James was trying to make the point of another man being able to see your faith.....Paul also said that a man is justified BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS....wake up and finally smell the truth!

The point is if a person does nothing to enact their knowledge of God they are worse than the demons, because they at least believe (I agree with you it is not true faith) and tremble.

 

[sparkman]

OK. I am glad you don't know her but you quoted her webpage. She's a loony Pelagian who supports the teachings of Charles Finney, Jesse Morell, Kerrigan Skelly, and Moral Government Theology people like Gordon Olson, Harry Conn and Winkey Pratney.

All deny core evangelical Christian doctrines including original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and penal substitutionary atonement. As well, they are sinless perfectionists and open theism.

Also, you can keep going down the list of people (that you think I know that I probably don't know). But you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not going to work. The Bible makes it very clear that there are conditional statements in it (That any reader can read for themself). Let's take a simple one. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by your Father. Now, I do believe a saint is born again spiritually when they repent of their sins and accept Christ. They have a new heart with new desires. But this does not mean their free will is gone in choosing to serve the Lord or not in choosing to serve the Lord. If God put many conditional statements in His Word like the verse that says you must forgive in order to be forgiven, it would be redundant or pointless to mention such a fact because all born again believers are just going to automatically forgive, right? Kind of defeats having a Word of God in the first place.

 

[SarahM777]

(...cont)


Let's continue...

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: Here it is revealed that everything Peter has been saying has been directed at newborn babes. That is new Christian's. This one verse when read in its full context of everything written previously completely destroys both Calvinism (never purified whilst in the flesh) and Arminianism/Wesleyianism (only purified after a second work of grace later down the road).

I have never seen a Calvinist or an Arminian make the connection between 1Pet 2:2 and 1Pet 1:22-23. It is plain as day in the text but false theologies wreak havoc on the mind and make one blind to the obvious.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. Here Peter speaks of "if so" which I think is a good reason for people to examine themselves to see if they are in fact in the faith. There is no point in "growing in the word" if one has not truly tasted the grace of the Lord. Not just felt or been influenced by God's grace but actually partaken of it. Approaching God in the correct manner initially is essential which is why Jesus alluded to a strait gate and narrow way which FEW FIND.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. This is our purpose, to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. How anyone can possibly conceive that one can be a holy priesthood and still be inwardly defiled is beyond me.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. A building is dependent on the cornerstone for all the other stones are measured and set in accordance with the cornerstone.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, Peter clearly rules out disobedience in the church here. The disobedient are rejecting the cornerstone, a building without a cornerstone will not be structurally sound because it has no standard to order its construction.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Take note that Peter mentions people who stunble at the word being disobedient. The true doctrine of Jesus Christ is offensive to many people. The notion that one has to forsake ALL evil and yield wholeheartedly to God is very offensive to many people because it requires them to forsake everything, it requires a death to this life in order to find life. Not many are willing to entertain such a message.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Christians are a peculiar people who have been called out of darkness into the light.

Peculiar.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Christians are peculiar because we have been redeemed from ALL iniquity and made pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing. Christian's have pure hearts, we are not workers of iniquity. The OSAS people ignore all this, they NEVER contend for it. All they contend for is "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the finished work of the cross" but it is another Jesus and another cross, not the on'e of the Bible.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. We have obtained mercy.

Who obtains mercy?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
I very much doubt that any of the sin defenders will address Pro 28:13. It is one of those inconvenient verses to them which is to be ignored completely. Their position is without foundation, all they have is rhetoric, a few out of context proof texts and patting each other on the back in their delusion.


Conclusion

So there you go Sarah, I cared enough to address 1Pet 1:22-23 in the full context of its passage. Does the meaning of what it plainly states change?

At least now you cannot say I "always" leave out verses 3-21 and this post will make a good reference point.

I'll add one more statement written by Peter...


2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

The point that you leave out Skinski,

1 Peter 1:22-23 is BEFORE 2 Peter 2-3. 2 Peter 2 DOES NOT NULLIFY what Peter tells us in chapter 1.
1 Peter 1 shows that the believers in Chapter 1 ARE PURIFIED IN THEIR HEARTS BY THE GOSPEL. (Past fact)
1 Peter 2 still shows that they are in a PROCESS because they ARE to GET RID of all those BECAUSE their hearts have been purified NOT that they GOTTEN RID of those things yet. (Current reality to DO BECAUSE OF Being purified in the heart)

 

[Chica]

DCon,
Yet, another thread denying that we are only baptized with the Holy Spirit, ONCE.

These guys preach a God that can't make His mind up, and teases us with the Holy Spirit.
You can't receive the Holy Spirit ......and then lose it, fellas, it doesn't work that way.

It happens.......and He guides you for the rest of your lives.

So sad. If you all want to feel special by thinking you see something in scripture that we can't, we can't stop you.
Stop teaching lies, though...and keep it to yourselves.
These men and their tired arguments, stating that we have a God who is THAT confusing.
Simplicity in Christ.

What happened to free will?

 

[sparkman]

Skinski7, are you familiar with a phone call that Mike DeSario made to Hank Hanegraaff saying that all people who believe in eternal security are lost, and associating them with child molesters? He used the Lord's name in vain on the same phone call.

I understand you approve of Mike Desario, and that he is associated with Pelagian beliefs. Your youtube channel has a bunch of videos with him.

Verses 3-21 do not undo the truth revealed in verses 22-23. The context does not nullify purity of heart being the outcome of obedience to the truth through the Spirit.

What is your issue?

Let us look at the text.

Peter opens with...

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Identifies himself and who he is writing to.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Recognises election due to the forknowledge of God, manifested through the being set apart by the Spirit unto obedience and touching the blood for cleansing.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Acknowledges God's mercy resulting in the new birth and the hope for being resurrected from the dead.
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, speaks of eternal life.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Acknowledges that the power of God is manifested through our faith unto the full measure of salvation (ie. ultimately eternal life)

Does anything written by Peter above undo the fact that new babes in Christ have had their souls purified by obedience to the truth and that they love one another with a pure heart fervently? Is there?

Let's continue...

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: Peter now speaks of the time of testing, the wilderness experience.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Our faith is put in trial, we are tested.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Here Peter states that we love God. Peter also states that we rejoice in conjunction to believing despite the fact we do not physically see God with our eyes.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Peter again refers to eternal life as in verse 5, the outcome of an enduring faith.

So far Peter has basically alluded to the power of God working through our faith and how we are to endure a difficult road of testing, the outcome of is eternal life.

Has he said a single word that nullifies that babes in Christ have purified their souls through obedience to the truth or that they love one another with pure hearts fervently? No he hasn't. Peter has not defended that anyone can sin and not surely die anywhere. Peter has not defended any notion that eternal life is a done deal for anyone, he has clearly emphasised the trial of faith and how it is tested for the purpose that we MIGHT be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. This is how Paul explained the same thing in Romans...

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Conduct matters.

Paul writes...

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

We have to run the race and be overcomers. John wrote...

1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Conduct matters, we have to DO the will of God.

Let us continue with Peter...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Peter again refers to eternal life as in verse 5, the outcome of an enduring faith.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: The prophets of old sought this salvation and they prophesied of the New Covenant.
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. It is the New Covenant generation who gets to witness the full manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ baptises with fire. This was held back under the Old Covenant because the means of remitting past sin, and thus the means of reconciliation, was not active yet, it was something hoped for.

Is there anything is that section which nullifies that new born babes have purified their souls through obedience to the truth by the Spirit? Is there anything there that nullifies loving one another with pure hearts fervently?

Is there anything written by Peter so far which teaches that the new birth is not inclusive of purity of heart? No there is not, not a work. Let us continue...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; Here Peter emphatically admonishes people to endure the time of testing. Gird is a word we don't use much today but it means "surround" or "immerse." We are to immerse our minds in Jesus Christ and be sober minded, we are to remain hopeful to the end for the ultimate manifestation of grace at the final revealing of Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: Here Peter plainly states that obedience is an essential aspect of this. We are not to conform ourselves according to the FORMER lusts of when we were ignorant. The OSAS folk ignore this verse too because they don't teach an "escape of the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Pet 1:4)"
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; The word translated "conversation" in the Greek is "anastrophē" and it means behaviour or conduct. Deeds matter.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Se we have read up to verse 16.

Have I explained anything away, have I twisted any scripture?

Has Peter said a single word which negates that babes in Christ have purified their souls through obedience to the truth and that they are to love one another with pure hearts fervently?

Had Peter said a single word that negates purity of heart being connected to the new birth?

No he hasn't. He has spoken of the outcome of endurance which is eternal life. He has spoken of how we are to emmerse our minds in Jesus Christ and be sober minded, how we are to be holy in ALL MANNER of our conduct. Where is any room for willful sin in that? There is none. These things Peter is speaking of are not optional, they are mandatory and being emphasised by a man who was taught directly by Jesus Christ.

Let us continue...

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Again it is stated that God's judges all men according to their DEEDS, due to this we are to pass our time here in fear.

Why would Peter say this if OSAS is true? You will NEVER hear a proponent of OSAS tell people that GOd will judge them in accordance to their deeds and that therefore they ought to fear God.

Jesus said this...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Solomon wrote this...

Ecc_12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Peter wrote...

1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Job feared God...

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The doctrines of OSAS and Penal Substitution destroy a fear of God in people because they become convinced that they can sin and get away with it.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Let us not be weary in well doing, for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT. That is a condition. OSAS people deny that. OSAS people completely ignore passages like that. OSAS people do not believe what the Bible actually teaches.

Let us continue...

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; Here Peter speaks of how Christians have been redeemed from their vain conduct ("conversation" = "anastrophē" = conduct/behaviour) via the blood of Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Peter is speaking of our union with God through Christ here.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Seeing YE HAVE (past tense) purified your souls. This has taken place, and due to this having taken place we are to make sure that we love one another with a pure heart fervently. In other words KEEP THE FAITH AND BE DOERS because we have been purified.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Here Peter plainly connects the purification of the soul with the new birth. We are born again of God.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: Our flesh and this world is temporary, it will pass away.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. God's word will not pass away.

Now let's go into chapter 2...

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, "Wherefore" is an allusion to what Peter has just written in the last chapter. In other words, "because of these things" laying (an ongoing action) ALL malice, ALL guile, ALL hypoocrisy, ALL envies, ALL evil speakings.

Sarah, do you somehow think that verse 1 is an allusion to purity of heart not being connected to a genuien salvation? Do you somehow thing that because Peter uses the term "laying aside" as an ongoing action that somehow he is meanign that babes in Christ have not yet laid these things aside and have yet to do so in the future? Are you thinking that Peter is teaching that one gets "saved in sin" and is still inwardly wicked and saved at the same time awaiting for some kind of inward transformation down the road? Peter is not teaching any such thing. Just read the verse for what it says and look at the whole context.

(cont...)

 

[Jason0047]

(...cont)


Let's continue...

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: Here it is revealed that everything Peter has been saying has been directed at newborn babes. That is new Christian's. This one verse when read in its full context of everything written previously completely destroys both Calvinism (never purified whilst in the flesh) and Arminianism/Wesleyianism (only purified after a second work of grace later down the road).

I have never seen a Calvinist or an Arminian make the connection between 1Pet 2:2 and 1Pet 1:22-23. It is plain as day in the text but false theologies wreak havoc on the mind and make one blind to the obvious.

1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. Here Peter speaks of "if so" which I think is a good reason for people to examine themselves to see if they are in fact in the faith. There is no point in "growing in the word" if one has not truly tasted the grace of the Lord. Not just felt or been influenced by God's grace but actually partaken of it. Approaching God in the correct manner initially is essential which is why Jesus alluded to a strait gate and narrow way which FEW FIND.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. This is our purpose, to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. How anyone can possibly conceive that one can be a holy priesthood and still be inwardly defiled is beyond me.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. A building is dependent on the cornerstone for all the other stones are measured and set in accordance with the cornerstone.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, Peter clearly rules out disobedience in the church here. The disobedient are rejecting the cornerstone, a building without a cornerstone will not be structurally sound because it has no standard to order its construction.
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Take note that Peter mentions people who stunble at the word being disobedient. The true doctrine of Jesus Christ is offensive to many people. The notion that one has to forsake ALL evil and yield wholeheartedly to God is very offensive to many people because it requires them to forsake everything, it requires a death to this life in order to find life. Not many are willing to entertain such a message.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Christians are a peculiar people who have been called out of darkness into the light.

Peculiar.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Christians are peculiar because we have been redeemed from ALL iniquity and made pure whereby we are zealous to do the right thing. Christian's have pure hearts, we are not workers of iniquity. The OSAS people ignore all this, they NEVER contend for it. All they contend for is "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the finished work of the cross" but it is another Jesus and another cross, not the on'e of the Bible.
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. We have obtained mercy.

Who obtains mercy?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
I very much doubt that any of the sin defenders will address Pro 28:13. It is one of those inconvenient verses to them which is to be ignored completely. Their position is without foundation, all they have is rhetoric, a few out of context proof texts and patting each other on the back in their delusion.


Conclusion

So there you go Sarah, I cared enough to address 1Pet 1:22-23 in the full context of its passage. Does the meaning of what it plainly states change?

At least now you cannot say I "always" leave out verses 3-21 and this post will make a good reference point.

I'll add one more statement written by Peter...


2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:22-23, Proverbs 28:13 are powerful verses that cuts thru the darkness indeed, brother.

I also love 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:6-7, 1 John 2:3-6, 1 John 3:10, 15, and 1 John 4:8.

 

[Jason0047]

Skinski7, are you familiar with a phone call that Mike DeSario made to Hank Hanegraaff saying that all people who believe in eternal security are lost, and associating them with child molesters? He used the Lord's name in vain on the same phone call.

I understand you approve of Mike Desario, and that he is associated with Pelagian beliefs. Your youtube channel has a bunch of videos with him.

I have run into 2 people who are against Once Saved Always Saved and who had a hateful spirit or way about them. But I have ran into more people who were waaaaaay more nastier and more of this world by the way of their behavior who hold to OSAS, though. Also, there are testimonies of people who felt enslaved to their sin because of OSAS. Many have done horrible and evil things because they believed in OSAS. So no. I am not buying those who generally deny OSAS are of the wrong camp and have really bad fruit. It's actually the opposite. Most of the time when we discuss this issue, it is more of a discussion about attacking the individual instead of discussing the Bible with love and respect. That right there should tell you something is not right with the Theology.

 

[BradC]

I have given you a challenge and you have not responded. Are you fearful that someone could point out sin or carnality in your life? It is when you are with others and rubbing elbows that your life and heart is truly tested. I might be walking in light that your evil deeds would be deproved, then what would you do? You could be walking in darkness and never realize it. Even you Jason could be in a form of darkness and not realize it. You fear that OSAS could be from God and that scares you deeply. This is why you understand the word the way you do.

 

[Jason0047]

I have given you a challenge and you have not responded. Are you fearful that someone could point out sin or carnality in your life? It is when you are with others and rubbing elbows that your life and heart is truly tested. I might be walking in light that your evil deeds would be deproved, then what would you do? You could be walking in darkness and never realize it. Even you Jason could be in a form of darkness and not realize it. You fear that OSAS could be from God and that scares you deeply. This is why you understand the word the way you do.

I do not discuss too much of my personal life on the internet. This is a Bible discussion forum and not a "Let's talk about our lives" forum. We are not on Facebook. Surely it is not smart to share too much. Or are you unaware of the destruction caused by those who share personal information? Also, my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. If you need to look at my personal life as your sole argument than your position is weaker than I thought. Because if you are a man of God who knows God's Word, you will indeed be happy to discuss those verses. But to let you know; I do not abide in unrepentant sin. I seek to honor and keep myself pure in all I say and do. I pray and work to please God every day. I do not give into the thinking that I will be a slave to sin. The disciples were amazed when Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a richman to enter the Kingdom of God. The disciples said, who then can be saved? But Jesus said something back to them. Something very important. He said, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. But see, you don't believe that. You believe a man will not be perfect as Jesus says. Jesus told the richman sell all that you have if you want to be perfect and come follow Him. Jesus did not say.... "Have a mental acknowledgment on me that I am the Savior; Oh, and by the way, you will never be perfect." Didn't happen that way.

 

[Chica]

Since there is no way to persuade you from Scripture that OSAS is true; because you have rejected idea: the best I can do is show you that yhe alternative is impossible.

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV
Here we see a clear statement that if it is possible to fall from grace, THERE IS NO WAY BACK.

Jn 2:1 clearly indicates that restoration after sinning is indeed possible; therefore by implication it is impossible to fall from grace.

I read Hebrews 6:4-6 totally different. To me it says that it is impossible to resote those that were once enlightened if they fall away.

What does the marriage in Cana in John 2:1 have to do with falling away?

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski in blue.

So, would you describe yourself as a Pelagian? No. I am a Christian.

I am not sure why you declare Charles Finney a heretic as your theology is right in line with his in terms of major points. Charles Finney upheld the U, I and P of the TULIP. Charles Finney was a three point Calvinist.

Charles Finney was a Presbyterian who ended up rejecting Original Sin and Penal Substitution. He was correct in rejecting those dangerous doctrines but he never rejected Irresistible Grace, Unconditional Election or Perseverance of the Saints.

Charles Finney wrote four lectures on Perseverance of the Saints in which he upholds "Irresistible Grace" by renaming it "Effectual Grace" and because of he held to the Eternal Now view of God he viewed the past/present/future as all being the same from the view point of God, thus salvation or destruction was fated from the beginning. Finney emphatically states in his lectures that if one of the elect grievously sins that the outcome of their final salvation is not put into question because it is already a done deal, in other words he was a fatalist.

The danger of Charles Finney is that his doctrine very subtly teaches a sin/repent/sin/repent cycle and thus minimises the danger of a willful sin after having come to a full knowledge of the truth and having been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Thus, despite all the allusion to a "faith that works by love" and "forsaking sin," Finney's theology deceives people into believing that they can in fact rebel occasionally to God and get away with it, so long as they say sorry afterwards.

What that means is that it is very easy for someone under the influence of Finney to have a false conversion experience premised upon mere emotion, whereby the root of iniquity is not actually destroyed in the heart.

This also plays well into how Finney viewed the death of Christ in a substitutional sense also. Finney did not understand why Jesus died on the cross, he fell for a development of Anselm's 12th century Satisfaction Model called Moral Government. He thus viewed the death of Christ as a counter balance for the forgiveness of sin as opposed to the MEANS by which we approach God to be reconciled.

Thus those who promote Moral Government will teach people to "trust in Jesus" and "trust in the cross" instead of APPROACH GOD VIA MEANS OF THE CROSS. That they tell people to stop sinning is irrelevant because their theology generally omits the means to do so. It is a very subtle deception and people like Jesse Morrell have fallen for it despite their good intentions.

I believe people like Winkie Pratney heavily influenced Jesse in his formative years and Jesse has run with Moral Government ever since. I have personally brought this subject up with Jesse but he doesn't appear to be able to grasp what I am saying is is thus very dismissive of my words.

The Bible does not teach anything remotely close to the Moral Government view.

By the way, to say that Finney believed in TULIP is crazy. You only say that because you are ignorant. Go and read the lectures Finney gave on Perseverance for yourself. I suspect that you have not done your own research on the matter and just regurgitate the popular opinions of others, authorities which you blindly trust.

Finney despised Reformed Theology. Finney despised "Original Sin" and "Sin You Will and Sin You Must." Finney clearly upheld the U, I and P of the TULIP. Finney was a 3 point closet Calvinist. Finney was a total contradiction as he taught both fatalism and free will. His work ought to be thrown out.

His theology was very Pelagian as yours is too. That is because Pelagius taught that man has free will whilst Augustine opposed free will. Pelagius taught that human beings sin by choice whilst Augustine taught that human beings sin by necessity. Pelagius is deemed as the greatest heretic by many because they have been deceived by the fruits of Augustinianism. You are just one of those MANY people. I used to be one of those many people but praise God I was brought out of my delusion.

Sparkman, where is the substance in what you write?

You make false claims which are easily debunked. False claims made due to you not having done your own research.

You try and lump me in with Finney and those who uphold him when you have no real idea of what you are talking about.

You uphold "faith alone" when the Bible says "grace THROUGH faith." You uphold "faith alone" when the Bible, in the only place "faith" and "alone" appear near each other it says "faith is not alone."

You uphold the imputation of the "righteousness of Christ" when the Bible teaches that it is FAITH ITSELF which God reckons as righteousness. I explained it at length but you just ignored it like most people.

You uphold Penal Substitution which is a 400 year old doctrine that is not taught in the Bible. I have addressed that issue at length also.

You uphold Original Sin which was brought into nominal Christianity by Augustine in the fourth century. This is a fact which can be proven beyond all doubt.

All you have are assertions with no substance. You call people "heretics" who deny your gnostic religion which you think is Christianity. It is a shame.

The Bible teaches heart purity in salvation. The Bible teaches that Christian's have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. The Bible teaches that the children of God are manifest to the world in that they do not commit sin but instead do righteousness.

You are just one of the many who don't believe what the Bible teaches. You believe in a false religion upheld by selectively quoting tidbits of the Bible out of context, which are then fluffed out with rhetoric.

I doubt I can really influence your mind but perhaps some of the others. I really don't know.



Hear and do is the doctrine Jesus taught.
We are to be doers of the will of God lest all be for nought.
Jesus warned, massive deception would be wrought.
Deception into which, a great many, would ultimately be caught.

The road to life is very narrow and strait.
Full of obstacles, yet an end reward which is great.
Thus diligently we journey on and patiently we wait.
We accept our task which is at hand, it is a full plate.

Yet we are not alone on our quest as we build our tower,
For we are saved by grace through faith in this very hour,
Faith itself, we know, is the work of power,
By abiding in Him, we will surely flower.

Amen

 

[Jason0047]

OK. I am glad you don't know her but you quoted her webpage. She's a loony Pelagian who supports the teachings of Charles Finney, Jesse Morell, Kerrigan Skelly, and Moral Government Theology people like Gordon Olson, Harry Conn and Winkey Pratney.

All deny core evangelical Christian doctrines including original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and penal substitutionary atonement. As well, they are sinless perfectionists and open theism.

Yeah, I used to quote a lot of websites. I do not always add disclaimers every time I quote certain sites. When I do add disclaimers: I point out that I do not believe everything the website believes. Researching a person's entire beliefs in whom I quote would be a full time job that I am not interested in. I am more concerned with... telling others about the truth according to God's Word. But yes, I am trying to get away from quoting other articles directly and I am trying to use my own words instead (Seeing that this does give folks the wrong impression). So yes; I am going to have to watch who I quote more. But palaioggiany whatever you call it. I have no clue what that is.

 

[Mitspa]

One must first doubt their salvation to have real faith...lol I guess if folks believe they are still justified by (parts) of the law of Moses and in part by faith, this makes perfect sense? But to those of us established in Gods Righteousness and not our own, this is just more religious nonsense.