OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Sirk]

Sometimes you gotta land the plane Jason....Dock the boat, park the car in the garage, mow the lawn, feed the dog, heat up the oven, fix the roof, unload the groceries, chew your food and most importantly.....have a good number 2.

I tacked the last part on to prevent him from saying that I am supposed to "everything" to the glory of God.

 

[Gr8grace]

I was reminded in church of this thread this morning, while we were singing this song. It really says it all. The gospel is about God! Not our sin, our works or anything else. It is about the awesome, and incredible God we serve.
This hymn is based on Psalm 8

[video=youtube_share;IvRkjJWfxKE]http://youtu.be/IvRkjJWfxKE[/video]

"How Great Thou Art"

O Lord, my God, when I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

And when I think of God, His Son not sparing;
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation
And lead me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow with humble adoration,
And then proclaim, "My God, how great Thou art!"

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!


​

Loss of salvation~~Creature credit. Sin,human works and our cost are the emphasis.

Eternal security~~Creator credit. What He did, What His cost was is the emphasis.

I am a freewill guy to the core. But when we freely believed, we gave up some of that freewill. He bought us with a GREAT price and we are not our own.

 

[Sirk]

In all the religious ramblings of the pious permanent acid trip crowd.. this one very important principle gets lost:

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

What does it mean to have life to the full? You'll get all kinds of whacky acid trip opinions about that, but the hard cold truth is that it's about connectedness and relationship thru the experience of life...together...in community, with people that you love... and God.....sharing in their joy and sufferings and serving others....not about how sinless you are. Jesus has that one covered for us.

 

[sparkman]

OK. If you claim sinlessness you're either a liar or deceived. Your choice I John 1:8-9.

Skinski in blue.


Sparkman, where is the substance in what you write?

You make false claims which are easily debunked. False claims made due to you not having done your own research.

You try and lump me in with Finney and those who uphold him when you have no real idea of what you are talking about.

You uphold "faith alone" when the Bible says "grace THROUGH faith." You uphold "faith alone" when the Bible, in the only place "faith" and "alone" appear near each other it says "faith is not alone."

You uphold the imputation of the "righteousness of Christ" when the Bible teaches that it is FAITH ITSELF which God reckons as righteousness. I explained it at length but you just ignored it like most people.

You uphold Penal Substitution which is a 400 year old doctrine that is not taught in the Bible. I have addressed that issue at length also.

You uphold Original Sin which was brought into nominal Christianity by Augustine in the fourth century. This is a fact which can be proven beyond all doubt.

All you have are assertions with no substance. You call people "heretics" who deny your gnostic religion which you think is Christianity. It is a shame.

The Bible teaches heart purity in salvation. The Bible teaches that Christian's have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. The Bible teaches that the children of God are manifest to the world in that they do not commit sin but instead do righteousness.

You are just one of the many who don't believe what the Bible teaches. You believe in a false religion upheld by selectively quoting tidbits of the Bible out of context, which are then fluffed out with rhetoric.

I doubt I can really influence your mind but perhaps some of the others. I really don't know.



Hear and do is the doctrine Jesus taught.
We are to be doers of the will of God lest all be for nought.
Jesus warned, massive deception would be wrought.
Deception into which, a great many, would ultimately be caught.

The road to life is very narrow and strait.
Full of obstacles, yet an end reward which is great.
Thus diligently we journey on and patiently we wait.
We accept our task which is at hand, it is a full plate.

Yet we are not alone on our quest as we build our tower,
For we are saved by grace through faith in this very hour,
Faith itself, we know, is the work of power,
By abiding in Him, we will surely flower.

Amen

 

[Jason0047]

OK. If you claim sinlessness you're either a liar or deceived. Your choice I John 1:8-9.

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

So then, we realize 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today says such a thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle.

 

[Sirk]

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

So then, we realize 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today says such a thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle.

It appears you are running out of road on your argument. It changes from day to day....like shifting sand.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, most of your OSAS proponents today believe they have no sin on a spiritual level because Jesus paid all their sin debt. So confession of sin (as per some OSAS proponents) is not dependent on their salvation. However, the true believer admits sin if it does arise and they confess it in order to be forgiven of that sin. They seek to sin not because John tells them to "sin not." Even Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. But many (not all) OSAS proponents do not like that message.

Also, the true believer realizes that there are sins unto death and sins that are not unto death. There are hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12). These would not be willful sins that lead unto the second death like lying, stealing, hating, and looking upon women in lust, etc. So the true believer can admit they may have an error or fault in not being perfect. But such sins are not sins unto the second death, which is the lake of fire.

 

[sparkman]

As a general pattern of life, Christians are obedient to the commandments that apply to them.

However if anyone claims they are sinless, they are a liar or deceived.

As examples, here are saints who sinned:

· Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife
· Noah got drunk after the Flood
· David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed
· Samson engaged in extramarital sex
· Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
· The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
· The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

So then, we realize 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today says such a thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Notice what the passage says. Read it again. All sin and BLASPHEMY. It then say the blasphemy of.... This lets us know that it is speaking of the sin of blasphemy. It's the context. It's not talking about other kinds of sins. So no. You are wrong. We know even in Hebrews 6:4-6 it is talking about the sin of apostasy.



Jesus does not say all sins except for the one. You are making Jesus say that when He didn't actually say that. Stop adding to what He said.



And.... the Scriptures show just one sin can separate you from God, too. Point in case... Adam and Eve. Big example there that you are ignoring. For did they keep eating of the tree for it to be a sin or for it to cause a separation? No. That's what your not understanding here.

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. Meaning, I do not make James Strong and his buddies my source of authority for understanding the Bible. Also, the King James does not say "practice" in that verse. That was a corruption added later by other popular Modern Versions that seek to change the Word of God ever so subtly.

Yes, this is talking about one sin and not many. I do not see this verse saying.... if we willfully sin a lot ongoingly as a way of life. Do you?



Please do not take this the wrong way. But did you receive this teaching from your church? Was their a personal experience in your life involving suicide?



Since when was believing God's Word at face value by faith taking it too far? I just believe that verse. You cannot believe that verse in this instance because of some other wrong teaching that you have acquired somehow. Suicide is a sin and it will lead a person to Hell and not Heaven. Do not deceive other people into thinking otherwise.

The only way someone can be forgiven of suicide is if they come back to life after they are dead so as to repent of it. I have already said this before in our discussions. But most do not always come back after they kill themselves.

I will address the rest of your post later. I have to run.

Jason please stop trying to change the scriptures of Matthew 12:31 and Mark 3:28-29 to fit your theology, as the scripture from the words of the Lord Himself says all sin and blasphemy. Then it goes to say blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, not just blasphemy........You are changing scripture again, not me, for I will repost them again;


Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin the Lord says is unforgivable, and all other forms of sins and blasphemy He says will be forgiven. The scriptures above clearly say all manner of sins besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven. You are changing those scriptures by saying it doesn't say all when they do.....

In your response you said just blasphemy and left the Holy Spirit part off, but the scripture says blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Other blasphemies will be forgiven if repented/confessed of.......

The teaching about suicide did not come from my church, and it was the Catholic church that interjected the whole suicide is unforgivable. Other denominations followed suit on this lie, and here in the past 10 years even the Catholic church has came away from teaching this lie as the truth in the scriptures are being opened to them as well.
The Holy Spirit guides me in my teaching and not a church/denomination/or another person. The bible says that all sins except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven, and that the Lord will have mercy on who He will have mercy on. If you go and take that mercy and forgiveness out of the hands of the Lord by saying they can not be saved to, then you are speaking from yourself and not from the Spirit.

For the condition for one to be forgiven of a sin and saved is to confess that sin for forgiveness, and if you knew anything about suicides and actually studied the issue, which I know you haven't by your responses. Then you would know a good majority always ask for forgiveness.
When a person gets that far along it becomes a mental illness situation of a person who is not thinking straight and feel there is no other way out. We can apply that to those who have other illnesses that can not comprehend right from wrong. Are you going to say they are not saved also even though they do not know how to repent because they can not comprehend and understand the teaching to do so???

If you do then you do not know the Lords love and mercy properly............

You do not take God's word at face value as you read to much into some areas and make people who can and will be forgiven and say they can't be. God's word says they can be saved, you say they can't which makes you over righteous because you place others salvation in your own hands.

Show me were in the bible it says a person can only be forgiven if the repentance is made after the sin is done?
There is not one scripture that says a person can not ask forgiveness right before or during the act. That is your issue it seems because you think only after can forgiveness be asked, but the bible does not say that. That is you reading to much into the scriptures, or interjecting your own standards in the word.

 

[JesusLives]

Blond walking through and thought you all could use a cookie...

Have you shown love to a brother or sister today? Given a hug or an understanding word? Would Jesus be proud of your actions and words spoken today?

Well Blond does want to share and spread the love so enjoy the cookies... and carry on.....in love please.

 

[BradC]

I do not discuss too much of my personal life on the internet. This is a Bible discussion forum and not a "Let's talk about our lives" forum. We are not on Facebook. Surely it is not smart to share too much. Or are you unaware of the destruction caused by those who share personal information? Also, my life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. If you need to look at my personal life as your sole argument than your position is weaker than I thought. Because if you are a man of God who knows God's Word, you will indeed be happy to discuss those verses. But to let you know; I do not abide in unrepentant sin. I seek to honor and keep myself pure in all I say and do. I pray and work to please God every day. I do not give into the thinking that I will be a slave to sin. The disciples were amazed when Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a richman to enter the Kingdom of God. The disciples said, who then can be saved? But Jesus said something back to them. Something very important. He said, with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. But see, you don't believe that. You believe a man will not be perfect as Jesus says. Jesus told the richman sell all that you have if you want to be perfect and come follow Him. Jesus did not say.... "Have a mental acknowledgment on me that I am the Savior; Oh, and by the way, you will never be perfect." Didn't happen that way.

Do you think the word applies to some disembodied spirit, no, it applies to you as a person, a believer and a human being with a spirit, soul and body. Salvation is possible because of grace and not because of a single thing a man can do in his best state. Our life in relationship to grace is the standard that we are to live by in this body of flesh and blood, which will never be able to inherit the kingdom of God. You have the wrong idea about Rom 6 & 7 concerning Paul and the body of sin that he dwelt in. He had to beat his body into submission because it was so loaded with evil and sin because of his deceitful heart and we all have one and we all need lots of grace and the testimony that there is no condemnation.

Your life as a believer is relevant and what you and I do with our life is important to God, to our brethren and to our fellow man. We should have the security in our relationship with Christ to stand before any man and those that make up the realm of the spiritual atmosphere and be an open book. Paul was an open book and put his life on the line because his sufficiency was according to the grace of God and the power that worked in him mightily. You and I will never be anything more to God then what we are to people around us. We will manifest the life of God in our mortal body or some other work of righteousness that God will have to reject because it did not come from grace. We are what we are by the grace of God Jason and that includes you. So without grace we are nothing and have no power or ability to be anything in the presence of God.

 

[gb9]

As a general pattern of life, Christians are obedient to the commandments that apply to them.

However if anyone claims they are sinless, they are a liar or deceived.

As examples, here are saints who sinned:

·Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife
·Noah got drunk after the Flood
·David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed
·Samson engaged in extramarital sex
·Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
·The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
·The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife

man, you got them backing up!!! go dude go!!!

 

[flob]

A dear person above asked (me): "why tell someone who is born again and going to forgive people automatically to then hit them over the head and say .... if you do not forgive .... you will not be forgiven?"

I apologize for not understanding exactly, but will try.......to help. Maybe it's with your word "automatically." Do you mean
if we're in spirit, enjoying Jesus, that proper forgiveness flows? I can agree with that. Because we still have the flesh, and the self, we who are children of God need to be encouraged and reminded to turn to our spirit. Where the indwelling Jesus Christ lives. As the Spirit. Even with solemn warnings. To live by Him, and with Him, and in Him, 24/7, to "learn Christ" this way.
In the way of fellowship and life. Which is easier said than done. Especially as it pertains to His Body. Of which we're irrevocable members. Part of "The Christ." And charged with keeping the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace.
Of course, the oneness is...............Christ Himself. A living oneness.
For sure Mt 6:15, just like all warnings to believers, does not refer to eternal perdition, eternal damnation. Because believers
are...........children of God. I don't mean merely in creation, figuratively speaking. But they possess God. We're "one spirit"
with the Spirit. The Lord Spirit. The Lord. Who is nothing less than the Triune God Himself, in the Son, in the Son of David,
as the Spirit, inseparably mingled with our human spirit. To be "one spirit" 1 Cor 6:17. Now and forever.
This is not adoption. This is sonship. Birth. Generation. Not in the flesh. But "that which is born of Spirit is spirit."
"The Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we're children of God." That is, God as the TriuneGodManSpirit, mingles....
with my spirit. With your spirit; if you've believed into Him, that He is the resurrected Son of God. He who is joined
to the Lord is one spirit. Experienced, and wrote, Paul to the church in Corinth. To all of us! Thank Him for His Scriptures.
Any dear child born of God, who is so stubborn or so naughty as to hold grudges, or not forgive his or her fellow-members,
or to be stubborn to the Lord in other ways, will, eventually..............repent. That is, confess and apologize and turn to the Lord. To gain the Lord, in that respect. And thus.............even if it takes the Maximum.......1000 years in outer darkness, etc.....to be transformed to be, with all the other saints, His New Jerusalem for eternity

 

[Sirk]

Do you think the word applies to some disembodied spirit, no, it applies to you as a person, a believer and a human being with a spirit, soul and body. Salvation is possible because of grace and not because of a single thing a man can do in his best state. Our life in relationship to grace is the standard that we are to live by in this body of flesh and blood, which will never be able to inherit the kingdom of God. You have the wrong idea about Rom 6 & 7 concerning Paul and the body of sin that he dwelt in. He had to beat his body into submission because it was so loaded with evil and sin because of his deceitful heart and we all have one and we all need lots of grace and the testimony that there is no condemnation.

Your life as a believer is relevant and what you and I do with our life is important to God, to our brethren and to our fellow man. We should have the security in our relationship with Christ to stand before any man and those that make up the realm of the spiritual atmosphere and be an open book. Paul was an open book and put his life on the line because his sufficiency was according to the grace of God and the power that worked in him mightily. You and I will never be anything more to God then what we are to people around us. We will manifest the life of God in our mortal body or some other work of righteousness that God will have to reject because it did not come from grace. We are what we are by the grace of God Jason and that includes you. So without grace we are nothing and have no power or ability to be anything in the presence of God.

But.... but.... but..... but..........never mind.

 

[Jason0047]

As a general pattern of life, Christians are obedient to the commandments that apply to them.

However if anyone claims they are sinless, they are a liar or deceived.

As examples, here are saints who sinned:

·Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife.
·Noah got drunk after the Flood.
·David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.
·Samson engaged in extramarital sex
·Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
·The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
·The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife

No. Abraham did not lie. That is a common misconception. Sarah really was his sister (half sister).

Noah did commit the sin of drunkenness. But Noah was not a slave to drunkenness the rest of his life. Big difference.

David repented of his sin of adultery and murder. David was also a man after God's own heart, too.

Samson is not an excuse for a believer to sin. His sinful life is never applauded in Scripture or pointed to as an example of how a believer can live. Samson was one of the few who made it into God's Kingdom by the skin of his teeth.

Peter did not continue to deny the Lord and he did not continue to show favoritism the rest of his life. Therein lies the difference.

The Corinthian man who committed adultery was kicked out of the church or the body of Christ; Corinthians later implies he repented of his sin and was taken back. However, he was not saved when he did not repent of his sin.

Nowhere does it say the Corinthians did not repent of their sins. In fact, we know they did. See 2 Corinthians 7, and 12.

 

[Jason0047]

I mean, the more and more I listen to people here, the more I believe they are out to condone evil.

It doesn't make a difference if you are generally living holy or not. Doing a little bit of sin on occasion and saying you will forever sin is just wrong.

For essentially everyone here is defending a "sin and still be saved" doctrine.

That is just pure evil and wrong if that is the case. That would be like a bad guy declaring his bad and evil acts as good and righteous.

Are folks here really not aware of what is good and right?

Do people here really not know what "Morals" actually are?

Why even believe in a God if folks here just want to make excuses for their sin that they know they will do in serving God?

Leave God out of your life if you want to sin.

God is holy and righteous.

The Lord is the opposite of what is evil and sinful. He cannot associate with it.

 

[Sirk]

I mean, the more and more I listen to people here, the more I believe they are out to condone evil.

It doesn't make a difference if you are generally living holy or not. Doing a little bit of sin on occasion and saying you will forever sin is just wrong.

For essentially everyone here is defending a "sin and still be saved" doctrine.

That is just pure evil and wrong if that is the case. That would be like a bad guy declaring his bad and evil acts as good and righteous.

Are folks here really not aware of what is good and right?

Do people here really not know what "Morals" actually are?

Why even believe in a God if folks here just want to make excuses for their sin?

Leave God out of your life if you want to sin.

God is holy and righteous.

The Lord is the opposite of what is evil and sinful. He cannot associate with it.

its okay to be wrong.

 

[Jason0047]

its okay to be wrong.

It's never okay to sin. Yet, people are making excuses so as to allow that to happen while worshiping God.

 

[Jason0047]

man, you got them backing up!!! go dude go!!!

No, not really. What he proposes does not make a lick of sense. I am sorry. He is trying to point out that believers sin as an example that we too can sin on occasion and still be saved. But nowhere does the Bible ever say they were saved while they committed sin, though. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Sirk]

It's never okay to sin. Yet, people are making excuses so as to allow that to happen while worshiping God.

You need to go see someone and get some help my friend. I see a counseler. Best thing I ever did. And he is a christian man too. A good christian counseler is Gods secret weapon.