Salvation Not Possible Without Works
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
But you did say you don't believe outside what you can see ,smell, taste or touch.
I didn't judge you, you did.
I just expounded on what you said and stated how the kingdom of God operates.
It has nothing to do with honesty, it has to do with faith.
Have I not received some things I prayed for in the past, of course, who hasn't. But the failures were on my part, because I didn't have God's word abiding in me. Like you, I was carnally minded, looking at the situation from a natural stand point.
It is written in, Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
This is a guarantee from God who cannot lie.
That if we abide in Him and His word abide in us, we can ask what we will or desire, and He SHALL give it and it SHALL be done unto us.
This is the pure word of God.
If you meet the conditions of this promise, then God will fulfill His word to you, and give you the thing you asked Him for. Guaranteed every time!
It is the law of faith.
I didn't judge you, you did.
I just expounded on what you said and stated how the kingdom of God operates.
It has nothing to do with honesty, it has to do with faith.
Have I not received some things I prayed for in the past, of course, who hasn't. But the failures were on my part, because I didn't have God's word abiding in me. Like you, I was carnally minded, looking at the situation from a natural stand point.
It is written in, Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
This is a guarantee from God who cannot lie.
That if we abide in Him and His word abide in us, we can ask what we will or desire, and He SHALL give it and it SHALL be done unto us.
This is the pure word of God.
If you meet the conditions of this promise, then God will fulfill His word to you, and give you the thing you asked Him for. Guaranteed every time!
It is the law of faith.
No sir, you do not understand what faith is. Works in general, after one is born again, are merely GOOD WORKS as a result of being born again, they are not works of faith.
Doing good things that are pleasing to God does not necessarily constitute those works as works of faith.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
They spoke what they believed, not something entirely unrelated to what they believed. There words of faith were in line with their believing. The words spoken were a work of faith that was directed at the thing they believed. This is faith, and they didn't even have to go anywhere or do anything for or to anyone for this WORK of faith.
Good works will not get a prayer answered, neither does it do anything for you faith.
Doing good things that are pleasing to God does not necessarily constitute those works as works of faith.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
They spoke what they believed, not something entirely unrelated to what they believed. There words of faith were in line with their believing. The words spoken were a work of faith that was directed at the thing they believed. This is faith, and they didn't even have to go anywhere or do anything for or to anyone for this WORK of faith.
Good works will not get a prayer answered, neither does it do anything for you faith.
Faith is faith when it has the proper object and that is faith in Christ. Notice in Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Faith in Christ must be established first then good works follow. To say that faith is dead until it produces works is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit. Faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. Barren of fruit would demonstrate that there is no root.
We are not saved by works, whether of the flesh, of the law (which includes the moral aspect of the law which covers good works) but through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Paul clearly said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). How can you only limit this to specific works of the law?
False. Paul NEVER said that we are saved by works of any kind. He said we are saved by grace through faith, not works. If Paul had a specific list of works in mind that saved us then he would have listed them along with faith in Ephesians 2:8, but that's not the case.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5); yet genuine faith is evidenced/confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
We are not saved by works, whether of the flesh, of the law (which includes the moral aspect of the law which covers good works) but through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? Paul clearly said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works and it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). How can you only limit this to specific works of the law?
False. Paul NEVER said that we are saved by works of any kind. He said we are saved by grace through faith, not works. If Paul had a specific list of works in mind that saved us then he would have listed them along with faith in Ephesians 2:8, but that's not the case.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5); yet genuine faith is evidenced/confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
I did only what we all do to scripture. I expounded and elaborated on what I read as I interpreted it, with my understanding of scripture on how the kingdom of God operates.
I was not trying to insult you sir, and forgive me for speaking matter-of-factly, as I saw it.
Concerning the scripture I quoted in John, what are you thoughts on it for answered prayer?
I was not trying to insult you sir, and forgive me for speaking matter-of-factly, as I saw it.
Concerning the scripture I quoted in John, what are you thoughts on it for answered prayer?
K
I think one thing is when it comes to this debate is that we need to get over or away from the word works....
For salvation is not by works as no matter how many or how few works one does determines their salvation, for we are all given different measurements of faith and called to hold different positions in the church. Some require more works then others yet all positions are still saved through Christ unto eternal life.
I think what we really need to focus on is our actions !!!
The bible clearly shows that a true born again believers actions and speech will reflect that they abide in Christ, and only by abiding in Christ does one have eternal life abiding in them. For our actions will be guided and driven by the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and without those fruits the bible says those who produce no fruit will be cut off and burned.
Even the Apostle Paul says that we can not walk by the flesh and have salvation both, as he says no condemnation to those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
Apostles Paul, and John both show over and over again how one's walk must look like in order to show they have eternal life abiding in them. Those descriptions are given to let people know that they do have assurance of receiving eternal life, and to those who continue to walk contrary to them do not have eternal life.
If you treat and talk badly to others then the bible clearly shows you do not abide in Christ, as God is love and those who do not love others do not know God. Treating others badly in actions or speech is a sign of not showing true love.......
For salvation is not by works as no matter how many or how few works one does determines their salvation, for we are all given different measurements of faith and called to hold different positions in the church. Some require more works then others yet all positions are still saved through Christ unto eternal life.
I think what we really need to focus on is our actions !!!
The bible clearly shows that a true born again believers actions and speech will reflect that they abide in Christ, and only by abiding in Christ does one have eternal life abiding in them. For our actions will be guided and driven by the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and without those fruits the bible says those who produce no fruit will be cut off and burned.
Even the Apostle Paul says that we can not walk by the flesh and have salvation both, as he says no condemnation to those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
Apostles Paul, and John both show over and over again how one's walk must look like in order to show they have eternal life abiding in them. Those descriptions are given to let people know that they do have assurance of receiving eternal life, and to those who continue to walk contrary to them do not have eternal life.
If you treat and talk badly to others then the bible clearly shows you do not abide in Christ, as God is love and those who do not love others do not know God. Treating others badly in actions or speech is a sign of not showing true love.......
C
Yes but could an infallible bible written to help find God also been used to single out a belief structure for the greater good of 'the church'? . Look through this thread though. It's Verse v Verse to prove 2 different ideas or interpretations
I am a backslidden Christian but have had God on my mind more and more recently. I believe it is God doing that. Since I have been away from my relationship with god and the church it has become easier to see things from different perspectives. I analyse things by nature and use to ask the same questions when I was a Christian. I believe in God but I question the way it is exclusive to Christianity. Did Jesus die on the cross as a way of bringing mankind to come to know him but not so we can focus on the sacrifice itself but now we can find God thanks to him?
I am a backslidden Christian but have had God on my mind more and more recently. I believe it is God doing that. Since I have been away from my relationship with god and the church it has become easier to see things from different perspectives. I analyse things by nature and use to ask the same questions when I was a Christian. I believe in God but I question the way it is exclusive to Christianity. Did Jesus die on the cross as a way of bringing mankind to come to know him but not so we can focus on the sacrifice itself but now we can find God thanks to him?
The gospel message is the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).
This is descriptive of those who are born of God. You are turning this into salvation based on man's performance/works.
Descriptive of those who are born of God. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - if we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
*Compare "do not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with "does not practice righteousness" in 1 John 3:10. John clearly states that whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God" in 1 John 3:10.
*Compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare "in darkness" in 1 John 2:9 with "turn them from darkness to light" in Acts 26:18.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. So who walks in the light? Believers or unbelievers?
Again, in Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation.
Exactly, our walk SHOWS if we are saved or not. We SHOW our faith by our works (James 2:18). To abide in Christ is to continue, remain, stay. This is not something that only super saints do. Those who are born of God abide in Christ and and walk in the light and not in darkness and do not practice sin, but practice righteousness.
This is descriptive of those who are born of God. You are turning this into salvation based on man's performance/works.
Descriptive of those who are born of God. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - if we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
*Compare "do not practice the truth" in 1 John 1:6 with "does not practice righteousness" in 1 John 3:10. John clearly states that whoever "does not practice righteousness is not of God" in 1 John 3:10.
*Compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare "in darkness" in 1 John 2:9 with "turn them from darkness to light" in Acts 26:18.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. So who walks in the light? Believers or unbelievers?
Again, in Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation.
Exactly, our walk SHOWS if we are saved or not. We SHOW our faith by our works (James 2:18). To abide in Christ is to continue, remain, stay. This is not something that only super saints do. Those who are born of God abide in Christ and and walk in the light and not in darkness and do not practice sin, but practice righteousness.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Please answer this question sir.
According to the verses above, is salvation possible without confession of that which is written?
Notice, if you will, that one believes unto righteousness, but salvation is not made UNTIL one confesses the things they believe with their mouth.
The work of faith at that moment IS the confession of that person. According to the above verses, they are not saved, healed, preserve, delivered, or made whole UNTIL they speak with their mouth, verbally or out loud, that which they believe.
After they speak the words of faith from their heart, then salvation is made and they have become children of God.
The corresponding words spoken to what they believed in their heart it the work of faith spoken of by James.
I decided to write about what faith is again, instead of answering everything you wrote about, because it appears you didn't understand what I was saying. Hope this is okay.
Yes, John was making this announcement to the Jews. Their Messiah was coming and they were not even ready for Him nor His kingdom. John's mission was to clear the path and " to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". When a king or monarch would enter a city, the path was to be cleared and straightened for him to pass through. The Jews had not prepared themselves, had not made themselves straight for the coming Messiah, many refused to listen to John.
You very well are right on that. (I was thinking the same thing that when the word works is used there is some confusion as to what one is saying) 
Faith works that same way with everything.
You cannot cast out an evil spirit because you did a good work by giving to the poor. It has absolutely nothing to do with casting out a spirit, therefore, there is no faith in that work.
In order for one to cast out a spirit, they must speak the word of God against that spirit, in the name of Jesus.
That spirit could care less what good works you did that day or any other for that matter, because no faith has been applied to drive it out. In order for faith to be applied to that spirit, like one would do for salvation, one would have to speak God's word in faith from the heart at the spirit.
Directing your words of faith at that spirit IS a work of faith.
Is there anyone that understands this yet?
K
The gospel message is not just the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is a watered down version of the gospel that some take and preach, but leave out the rest of the commands that the Lord gave in order to receive salvation through Him.
People want to focus to much on what Paul said in the likes of Ephesians 2:9 of the not by works.
What people don't do is take and realize the difference in God's grace and faith in Christ, for the bible says saved by His grace. Which is sending the Lord to die for us on the cross, this is what not by works as we did nothing to deserve the Lord coming in the flesh to do this.
From here the Lord clearly tells us what it means to believe in Him, and nowhere does He say only believe in His death, burial, and resurrection alone.
Jesus says we have to do the will of God in our life, forgive others, confess Him as Lord, repent of our sins, and do good to others. This is all part of what it means to believing in Him !!!
We can not separate our walk in the faith with our belief in the faith unto salvation, as they go hand and hand.
To go and try to eliminate one from the equation means you initially are saying a person can live however they want and still be saved. The bible says to the contrary of that as it says and shows how our walk has to match our belief, if our walk does not match how the bible says we are to walk it is clear cut on that it says they are not saved.
Refusing to obey the gospel means you refuse to obey anything the Lord said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
You can not say you have eternal life, and hate others, be unforgiving, not confess your sins, and be unhelpful, or ungiving............
You will never get an impenitent, denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins saved.
So one must repent or perish Lk 13:3,5
confess Christ or be denied by Christ, Mt 10:32,33
be baptized for remission of sins or be lost in those sins Acts 2:38
Above you said (my emp) "We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not in the work of repentance, confession, or in baptism."
You first ruled out the work of confession but then say "Confessing...is the only work of faith for salvation".
COnfession is necessary but not confession alone.
Repenting does not cleanse sins, repentance is making a change in turning from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness.
Jesus said repent or perish so repentance Lk 13:3,5 is just as necessary to salvation as confession. The impenitent will be lost, Rom 2:4,5
Baptism IS where sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ, Acts 2:38. In Mk 1:16 Jesus made baptism of EQUAL importance and necessity to salvation as believing.
So one must repent or perish Lk 13:3,5
confess Christ or be denied by Christ, Mt 10:32,33
be baptized for remission of sins or be lost in those sins Acts 2:38
Above you said (my emp) "We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not in the work of repentance, confession, or in baptism."
You first ruled out the work of confession but then say "Confessing...is the only work of faith for salvation".
COnfession is necessary but not confession alone.
Repenting does not cleanse sins, repentance is making a change in turning from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness.
Jesus said repent or perish so repentance Lk 13:3,5 is just as necessary to salvation as confession. The impenitent will be lost, Rom 2:4,5
Baptism IS where sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ, Acts 2:38. In Mk 1:16 Jesus made baptism of EQUAL importance and necessity to salvation as believing.
Yes, notice the words the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart "TOGETHER that is, the word of faith, which we are preaching, now *(notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe in your heart today then finally confess next week and you are finally saved next week.
To believe UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS means you are saved. It does not mean you are still lost until you accomplish something later. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. That is to believe unto righteousness which means you are saved.
The word is near you, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART - TOGETHER. Those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead and vice versa. It's not one or the other, it's both.
believes unto righteousness = saved (Romans 4:5).
That's not what Paul is teaching. It's not believes unto unrighteousness today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. What does Romans 10:8 say? The word is near you, in your mouth AND in your heart - TOGETHER.
So what about someone who is unable to speak? (they are moot). How can they confess VERBALLY with their MOUTH? Such a person would remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.
The word of faith is IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART - TOGETHER. Read verse 8.
So you don't believe that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together? And that a person who believes unto righteousness is still lost and won't be saved until later, after they verbally confess Christ? May take days or weeks to finally confess? Is that what we read in Romans 10:8-10? So how do you harmonize your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10 with Romans 4:5; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31?
To believe UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS means you are saved. It does not mean you are still lost until you accomplish something later. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. That is to believe unto righteousness which means you are saved.
The word is near you, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART - TOGETHER. Those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead and vice versa. It's not one or the other, it's both.
believes unto righteousness = saved (Romans 4:5).
That's not what Paul is teaching. It's not believes unto unrighteousness today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. What does Romans 10:8 say? The word is near you, in your mouth AND in your heart - TOGETHER.
So what about someone who is unable to speak? (they are moot). How can they confess VERBALLY with their MOUTH? Such a person would remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.
The word of faith is IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART - TOGETHER. Read verse 8.
So you don't believe that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together? And that a person who believes unto righteousness is still lost and won't be saved until later, after they verbally confess Christ? May take days or weeks to finally confess? Is that what we read in Romans 10:8-10? So how do you harmonize your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10 with Romans 4:5; Acts 10:43; 13;39; 16:31?
You admitted belief was a work. If one must believe BEFORE he can be saved, which he must, then then belief is a WORK that must be done before one can be saved.
Paul said we are saved by faith and not of works, you admitted belief/faith is a work, so the work of belief cannot be part of the "not of works". The not of works refers to works of merit and not works in obedience to God's will. When you take that passage out of context and isolate it from all other verses then you are saying one can be save not of works you are saying one can be saved while in disobedience to God's commands, saved while not working out God's commands but saved while NOT doing the Lord's will which is not possible at all.
quote=mailmandan]
You just turned "work of believing" into works. Jesus said this is the "work" of God, not these are the works of God that you must accomplish after you believe in Him. Repentance actually "precedes" believes in Him and it already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Him, so it's included in that sense, because it already happened when we choose to believe in Him. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "TOGETHER" (Romans 10:8) so it's already included in that sense because confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance unto life/believes in Him/confession made unto salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 10:8-10) so it is not included in believes in Him. Believers believe in Him PRIOR TO BEING WATER BAPTIZED. [/quote]
You admitted earlier that belief was a work Jn 6:27-29. Are you wanting to back out of that now?
THe people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Get it? They asked what shall WE DO that WE WORK the work of God. Jesus did not tell them do "no works" as you would have but gave them a work to do, Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.
Jesus said in v27 to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life and settled the issue once and for all that one must WORK if he wants everlasting life. A settled issue some just want to argue and debate over anyway. They create a contradiction between Paul's "not of works" and Christ saying to WORK for the meat that endures to everlasting life. Paul was eliminating works of merit not obeying God's will, Paul said one must obey from the heart that form of doctrine, then being made free from sin.. Both Christ and Paul said to work for salvation.
It would be a contradiction if on one hand Jesus said belief only saves, but then on the other hand say repentance confession and baptism saves. Either belief only saves or it doesn't cannot have it both ways.
Simple unbelief is enough to condemn a person, but Jesus never said simple belief only is also enough to save a person for again, Jesus made repentance confession and baptism equal I importance and necessity to being saved for you will NEVER EVER get an impenitent person that is a denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins saved..NEVER.
Paul said we are saved by faith and not of works, you admitted belief/faith is a work, so the work of belief cannot be part of the "not of works". The not of works refers to works of merit and not works in obedience to God's will. When you take that passage out of context and isolate it from all other verses then you are saying one can be save not of works you are saying one can be saved while in disobedience to God's commands, saved while not working out God's commands but saved while NOT doing the Lord's will which is not possible at all.
quote=mailmandan]
You just turned "work of believing" into works. Jesus said this is the "work" of God, not these are the works of God that you must accomplish after you believe in Him. Repentance actually "precedes" believes in Him and it already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Him, so it's included in that sense, because it already happened when we choose to believe in Him. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart "TOGETHER" (Romans 10:8) so it's already included in that sense because confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance unto life/believes in Him/confession made unto salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 10:8-10) so it is not included in believes in Him. Believers believe in Him PRIOR TO BEING WATER BAPTIZED. [/quote]
You admitted earlier that belief was a work Jn 6:27-29. Are you wanting to back out of that now?
THe people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Get it? They asked what shall WE DO that WE WORK the work of God. Jesus did not tell them do "no works" as you would have but gave them a work to do, Jesus gave them the work of believing to do.
Jesus said in v27 to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life and settled the issue once and for all that one must WORK if he wants everlasting life. A settled issue some just want to argue and debate over anyway. They create a contradiction between Paul's "not of works" and Christ saying to WORK for the meat that endures to everlasting life. Paul was eliminating works of merit not obeying God's will, Paul said one must obey from the heart that form of doctrine, then being made free from sin.. Both Christ and Paul said to work for salvation.
It would be a contradiction if on one hand Jesus said belief only saves, but then on the other hand say repentance confession and baptism saves. Either belief only saves or it doesn't cannot have it both ways.
Simple unbelief is enough to condemn a person, but Jesus never said simple belief only is also enough to save a person for again, Jesus made repentance confession and baptism equal I importance and necessity to being saved for you will NEVER EVER get an impenitent person that is a denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins saved..NEVER.
Amen! To SeaBass, everything is "works." He seems to think that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to "attain" and "maintain" salvation by works. What a mess!