OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[sparkman]

I do approve of Mike DeSario's teachings. He is teaching people that they have to forsake their rebellion to God, yield, and be born again through the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.


In other words a Gospel message is preached where people are saved IN sin instead of saved FROM sin.




A belief in OSAS disconnects "deeds" from salvation. Thus it necessitates salvation being "abstract" in order to account for manifest rebellion to God (like child molestation or theft). Penal Substitution is the perfect solution for an abstract view of salvation.

OSAS is premised on ancient gnosticism mixed with a Jesus flavour. That is the truth.

Your remarks are misrepresentations. Faith produces salvation/regeneration produces obedience and good works. The order is important. Those who believe in eternal security do not disconnect salvation from works or obedience. This is a blatant lie and you are being a false witness when you say such things. You are applying antinomianism to all individuals who adhere to eternal security, and this is a simple, blatant lie.

 

[Skinski7]

That is what the OSAS folk here are not getting. They are saying.... it is impossible to stop sinning. You will always sin. So a believing child who comes across this website and hears an OSAS proponent say such a thing is going to be led into thinking they can sin and still be saved.

So they would be actively leading a believing child into sin.

But Jesus said it would be better if a millstone would be tied around their neck and they were to drown at sea than to do so.

That is what people are not realizing here.

They have no idea of the depths of evil their belief goes (Which makes an allowance for evil).

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This is what many do not believe. Many cannot conceive a possibility of resisting temptation every single time which is what God requires us to do.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

There is always a way of escape and we are to take it. Through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ we have everything we need to walk in purity before God. We may stumble due to ignorance and thus be in need of correction, but as for willful sin resultant of yielding to temptation, it is out of the question.

Paul referred to people who were wells without water who would speak great words of emptiness. People who "cannot cease from sin." Many of these characteristics match what we see today in with many who profess to be Christians.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Look at what Paul writes next...

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

People like this serve to draw those who genuinely escaped the pollutions of the world back into those pollutions, woe to those who are drawn back because their end is worse than the beginning because a second repentance is much more difficult than the first due to the second offense being done from a state of full knowledge, not from a state of ignorance like when we first sold ourselves into sin and continued therein.


Paul wrote...

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

A time would come when sound doctrine would not be endured. People would heap to themselves a multitude of teacher whom would tickle their ears, and they would turn to fables.

Fables like...

Penal Substitution
Imputed Righteousness of Christ
Original Sin (Sin you will and sin you must)

Fables which serve as a root to give birth to teachings like OSAS.

Paul spoke of having to "fight the good fight" and "finishing the course" and of "keeping the faith." Due to this he perceived that a crown of righteousness was laid up for him. Teach such a thing today and many will call it self righteousness, such sadness for the way things have turned out today.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The words of Jesus pertaining to striving, counting the cost, keeping his word, doing the will of the Father, losing our life to find it, digging deep, not looking back, sinning no more are all rejected via a petition to modern false doctrines.

The delusion is really so obvious and yet it is so hidden at the same time.

If one is convinced that a "provisional salvation" was put into effect via a "legal transaction" wrought through the cross where basically people perceive themselves as "swapping places with Jesus" and that all they have to do is "trust in that" to be initially saved then their mind is fully immunised to the very words of Jesus.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The OSAS profess to be workers of iniquity and despise those who claim to have departed from iniquity. In their mind no-one can depart from iniquity because we are all born sinners whereby sin is an issue of the flesh. Thus, in their mind, if we say we have no sin (ie. we say we are not a worker if iniquity) then there is no truth in us. Yet John is speaking of "sin to our account" as in "past sins" for we have to come clean with God in confessing our rebellion. It is in coming clean with God n repentance that we are raised up to newness of life and given everything we need to walk blameless before God having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Up is down. Down is up. Left is right and right is left. Everything is turned on its head today. Only Satan would tell people to stop sinning right? Only Satan would tell people that it is possible to be truly set free from sin right? That is what many would have everyone else believe.


2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

 

[Skinski7]

Faith produces salvation/regeneration produces obedience and good works.

Faith and obedience are the same thing. One does not produce the other. Faithfulness to God is obedience to God.

There is no disobedience in genuine faith, not for a moment.

Paul taught we are slaves to whom we obey, sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. You believe one can be disobedient unto righteousness.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The issue is whom we yield to. Do we yield to God or do we yield to sin. The choice is ours.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obedience from the heart is what sets us free from sin, for obedience to God is the opposite of obedience to sin. One cannot obey sin and be obeying God at the same time. Hence we are to turn from obedience to sin and yield ourselves to God. It is such a simple concept even a child would understand it.

The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. It sets us apart from the filth of the world through the repentance experience whereby we approach God with a true heart seeking a cleansing. Repentance produces obedience to God, not salvation. Salvation is the outcome, salvation is the manifest state of walking with God. You think salvation comes first and then obedience comes later, thus you have disobedience in salvation, not only that but OSAS teaches that disobedience has no effect on salvation thus actual conduct is irrelevant.

The order is important. Those who believe in eternal security do not disconnect salvation from works or obedience.

Yes they do. They have to. You are a fool if you believe otherwise.

Look at this from the Westminster Confession of faith...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]
Westminster Confession of Faith

Right there it is described that the "saved" can engage in grevous sin and continue in them. That is a perfect example of "disobedience" and "salvation" existing at the same time. Of course salvation is disconnected from obedience by these people, one can be saved and obedient or disobedient.

John MacArthur states the following...

If sin and unrighteousness characterize your life, there is a possibility you are a disobedient Christian—but there is a greater possibility you are not a Christian at all.

Examine Yourself

Obedience is not disconnected from salvation? My remarks are a misrepresentation? Who is fooling who here Sparkman?

I have had many pastors tell me to my face that one can engage in vile sin and still be saved. Do you somehow think that is not disconnecting obedience from salvation? You would have to throw your reasoning faculties out the window to deny such a disconnection.

This is a blatant lie and you are being a false witness when you say such things. You are applying antinomianism to all individuals who adhere to eternal security, and this is a simple, blatant lie.

A blatant lie? Really?

Does a child molester have to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them? Answer that question and we will see who is lying here.

Will you answer the question or run and hide from it like many do?

The Westminster Confession of Faith states...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16] ]Westminster Confession of Faith

They can never fall from the state of justification due to sinning. The Westminster Confession teaches that one can disobey God and remain justified. Clearly obedience has NOTHING to do with salvation in the context of being an intrinsic aspect of salvation. Rather, the people who promote this garbage will speak of obedience as something that occurs sometime down the track. I ask WHEN? The answer is NEVER because they all believe that the sin NEVER stops.

Call me a liar all you want. The Bible clearly teaches...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

...which is something you do not believe.

 

[Skinski7]

You are ascribing evil to believers who are learning to live by the grace of God and you have little understanding as to what that even means. Do you relate to carnal thinking as being sinful just as much as doing any works of the flesh? You can't be 99% spiritual and 1% carnal, it does not work that way when living by the grace of God. I bet that you are more carnal in your thinking then you even realize, and that is just as much sin as anything else that involves the law. You can be morally upright in your deeds and be carnally minded because you have learned to abstain from certain appetites of the flesh. Growing in grace goes way beyond all that.

The issue is the heart BradC. One with a pure heart can still act in a carnal manner due to ignorance. In 1 Corinthians we see an example of this with people where were elevating one teacher above another whereby strife, division, and envy was being wrought. Such action is very different to adultery, fornication, rape, murder, theft, lying, idolatry etc. Thus they needed to be chastised and corrected.

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

They were dividing themselves in a denomination sense. I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. It was pure carnality but not in the context of rebellion against God. A young child is often carnal in how they act yet they need to be taught.

There is a difference between willful sin and sins of ignorance. Willful is is rebellion. Sins of ignorance are not rebellion. Willful sin involves a rejection of God. Sins of ignorance do not. If you fail to make that distinction and put all sin in the one bucket then one can expound a delusion where accidentally going over the speed limit is equivalent to raping a baby. Thus if one remains justified through faith in one (speeding) then necessarily it means they remain justified through faith in the other (raping babies), hence the birth of the lie that there is no sin one has to actually stop doing BEFORE God will forgive them.

The Corinthians were also using the local courts to solve disagreements between each other instead of using elders in the church. Such action brought into question their hearts for Paul wrote...

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Paul is pointing out sin in the church here. This is very different to upholding one teacher above another, this is a heart issue which is why Paul states...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

In other words do not be one of those who do the things in that list for those who do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That kind of activity is meant to be something to have been put off in repentance. Hence "such WERE some of you" but now ye are washed, sanctified and justified.

If God has convicted me to go a certain path and I procrastinate, that is being carnally minded. If I have a comfortable lifestyle and worked hard and disciplined to get it, and God tells me to take up my cross, deny and give up all that and I choose not to, through I remain moral in my deeds, I am carnally minded and that is death and not the life of God.

That is right. That is the road to death. If you do that you will perish in your sins. We are not to despise the correction of God lest a root of bitterness be born which would utterly defile our inward being, such a defilement from which one may not find repentance, just like Esau.

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The grace of God that brings salvation teaches us the way we are to go. If we despise that grace and refuse to yield to what we are taught we will be lost. Esau despised the grace of God for he preferred the lusts of his flesh. He sold his birthright for a tasty bowl of soup.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Refusing to do what God calls us to do is carnal and just as much of the flesh as adultery or idolatry.

It is a sin unto death which separates one from God instantly. Salvation rescues us from doing this for we instead abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. So long as we remain faithful to God we will never sin unto death. Hence the testing of our faith and having to endure to the end.

If someone is in need and you have the means and opportunity to do something about it, which may require you to give up all or some of what you have. and you refuse to to it, that is not only carnal but it is evil.

Well that would depend on the circumstances. We only have limited resources and thus we have to be wise in how we utlilise them. The issue is love our of a pure heart, a good conscience and a faith uinfeigned, all wrought through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Everything else will flow from that. Lacking an experiential understanding of that one can easily be led astray with talk of sins of omission versus sins of commission. Basically people tend to label everything as sin and we end up back to a lack of distinction between sins of ignorance (not unto death) and willful sin (sin into death).

 

[Jason0047]

OK..if your salvation is based on your ability to be sinless, I guess you might as well plan on hell because you still sin. If one tiny sin sends you to hell, you're going to hell. Plan on it.

If your faith is not in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on your behalf, you're doomed.

Are you unaware 1 John 5:16-18 that talks about the sins unto death and sins not unto death? No doubt you think this is in regards to physical death; But it is not. The sins that John lists in Revelation 21:8 lead to what is called..... the 2nd DEATH, which is the Lake of Fire. In fact, when we read the epistle of John, we can see a contrast between light and darkness, sin and righteousness, and eternal life with death. Is not eternal life ... spiritual life? What is the opposite or contrast of spiritual life? Spiritual death. Also, God gives a believer a new heart and a new spirit when they repent of their sins and accept Jesus. God then does His work within us (Keeping His Commands) (See Ezekiel 36:26-27). Also, those who suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin, too (1 Peter 4:1). They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

 

[Jason0047]

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This is what many do not believe. Many cannot conceive a possibility of resisting temptation every single time which is what God requires us to do.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

There is always a way of escape and we are to take it. Through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ we have everything we need to walk in purity before God. We may stumble due to ignorance and thus be in need of correction, but as for willful sin resultant of yielding to temptation, it is out of the question.

Paul referred to people who were wells without water who would speak great words of emptiness. People who "cannot cease from sin." Many of these characteristics match what we see today in with many who profess to be Christians.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Look at what Paul writes next...

2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

People like this serve to draw those who genuinely escaped the pollutions of the world back into those pollutions, woe to those who are drawn back because their end is worse than the beginning because a second repentance is much more difficult than the first due to the second offense being done from a state of full knowledge, not from a state of ignorance like when we first sold ourselves into sin and continued therein.


Paul wrote...

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

A time would come when sound doctrine would not be endured. People would heap to themselves a multitude of teacher whom would tickle their ears, and they would turn to fables.

Paul spoke of having to "fight the good fight" and "finishing the course" and of "keeping the faith." Due to this he perceived that a crown of righteousness was laid up for him. Teach such a thing today and many will call it self righteousness, such sadness for the way things have turned out today.

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The words of Jesus pertaining to striving, counting the cost, keeping his word, doing the will of the Father, losing our life to find it, digging deep, not looking back, sinning no more are all rejected via a petition to modern false doctrines.

The delusion is really so obvious and yet it is so hidden at the same time.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The OSAS profess to be workers of iniquity and despise those who claim to have departed from iniquity. In their mind no-one can depart from iniquity because we are all born sinners whereby sin is an issue of the flesh. Thus, in their mind, if we say we have no sin (ie. we say we are not a worker if iniquity) then there is no truth in us. Yet John is speaking of "sin to our account" as in "past sins" for we have to come clean with God in confessing our rebellion. It is in coming clean with God n repentance that we are raised up to newness of life and given everything we need to walk blameless before God having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Up is down. Down is up. Left is right and right is left. Everything is turned on its head today. Only Satan would tell people to stop sinning right? Only Satan would tell people that it is possible to be truly set free from sin right? That is what many would have everyone else believe.


2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Well, I agree with this portion of what you had written here, my brother. Totally true and very accurate.

 

[BradC]

The issue is the heart BradC. One with a pure heart can still act in a carnal manner due to ignorance. In 1 Corinthians we see an example of this with people where were elevating one teacher above another whereby strife, division, and envy was being wrought. Such action is very different to adultery, fornication, rape, murder, theft, lying, idolatry etc. Thus they needed to be chastised and corrected.

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

They were dividing themselves in a denomination sense. I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. It was pure carnality but not in the context of rebellion against God. A young child is often carnal in how they act yet they need to be taught.

There is a difference between willful sin and sins of ignorance. Willful is is rebellion. Sins of ignorance are not rebellion. Willful sin involves a rejection of God. Sins of ignorance do not. If you fail to make that distinction and put all sin in the one bucket then one can expound a delusion where accidentally going over the speed limit is equivalent to raping a baby. Thus if one remains justified through faith in one (speeding) then necessarily it means they remain justified through faith in the other (raping babies), hence the birth of the lie that there is no sin one has to actually stop doing BEFORE God will forgive them.

The Corinthians were also using the local courts to solve disagreements between each other instead of using elders in the church. Such action brought into question their hearts for Paul wrote...

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Paul is pointing out sin in the church here. This is very different to upholding one teacher above another, this is a heart issue which is why Paul states...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

In other words do not be one of those who do the things in that list for those who do those things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That kind of activity is meant to be something to have been put off in repentance. Hence "such WERE some of you" but now ye are washed, sanctified and justified.

That is right. That is the road to death. If you do that you will perish in your sins. We are not to despise the correction of God lest a root of bitterness be born which would utterly defile our inward being, such a defilement from which one may not find repentance, just like Esau.

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The grace of God that brings salvation teaches us the way we are to go. If we despise that grace and refuse to yield to what we are taught we will be lost. Esau despised the grace of God for he preferred the lusts of his flesh. He sold his birthright for a tasty bowl of soup.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


It is a sin unto death which separates one from God instantly. Salvation rescues us from doing this for we instead abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. So long as we remain faithful to God we will never sin unto death. Hence the testing of our faith and having to endure to the end.

Well that would depend on the circumstances. We only have limited resources and thus we have to be wise in how we utlilise them. The issue is love our of a pure heart, a good conscience and a faith uinfeigned, all wrought through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Everything else will flow from that. Lacking an experiential understanding of that one can easily be led astray with talk of sins of omission versus sins of commission. Basically people tend to label everything as sin and we end up back to a lack of distinction between sins of ignorance (not unto death) and willful sin (sin into death).

These things are of the flesh and they are in the world and we are not to love the world nor the things that are in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the PRIDE OF LIFE. Let's talk about the PRIDE OF LIFE as being in the world and that which the believer is not to have affections for. The PRIDE OF LIFE is many things and even the believer is not exempt of falling into that trap. Jesus said the following...

Matt 10:35-39

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The PRIDE OF LIFE is when we as believers preserve our life instead of losing it. We try to preserve our identity and reputation with our family and friends instead of losing that identity through death by taking up a cross. There are many things that we try to preserve in terms of relationships and lifestyles and even our religious association with the interpretation of the scriptures. I can show you countless believers who live in relevant righteousness and will go to any degree to preserve that kind of righteousness. They use their relevant righteousness to compare themselves with others and to judge others by the standards of that relevant righteousness.

They use the word to substantiate this righteousness and live in the pride of life by demeaning those who fail those standards associated with that righteousness. They are not gracious to those who fail or fall into sin, they have no compassion on the unlovely, they separate themselves from sinners because of the stigma associate with befriending those who are depraved. This relevant righteousness was obtained through the letter of the law without the death of the cross. They are enstranged to the thought of laying their life down for those who are in bondage to sin. They make constant demands for repentance because they do not understand the lovingkindness of our Lord. These are just some things to consider.

 

[Jason0047]

..... Fables like...

Penal Substitution
Imputed Righteousness of Christ
Original Sin (Sin you will and sin you must)

Fables which serve as a root to give birth to teachings like OSAS.

While I am strongly against OSAS, I believe in...

1. The Substitionary Atonement
2. The Imputed Righteousness of Christ.
3. Original Sin (or that all sin was passed down from Adam)
Note: I do not believe the teaching of "Original Sin" teaches "believers are enslaved to their sin", though.

These are basic Biblical teachings of Scripture that is in no way tied to the false teachings of OSAS or a sin and still be saved doctrine.

There are many verses that support these teachings in Scripture that I will address later at another time, my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you and please be well.

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, if a believer is allowed to sin and still be saved, then how exactly are they to abhor that which is evil?

"Abhor that which is evil" (Romans 12:9).

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, if a believer is allowed to sin and still be saved, then how exactly are they to abhor that which is evil?

"Abhor that which is evil" (Romans 12:9).

I mean, when I think of abhoring something.... it is kind of like this....

Okay. Well, maybe that is a little exagerated, but you get the idea. We as believers are supposed to hate evil and or sin. A believer should never say they will always sin the rest of their lives. That is wrong.

 

[sparkman]

If you claim perfect obedience you're simply a liar or self deceived. Period. And the type of condemnation you heap on others, you are going to receive.

In fact, based on I John 1, I don't think you're saved at all.

Faith and obedience are not the same thing. Faith produces obedience. You are confusing the cause and the effect. There can be no effect without a cause.

Reformed theology does not teach that obedience and salvation are disconnected. Faith causes salvation causes obedience. Obedience is never perfect.

Consider these saints who sinned:

· Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife
· Noah got drunk after the Flood
· David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed
· Samson engaged in extramarital sex
· Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
· The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
· The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife
READ 1 JOHN 1.

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— [SUP]2 [/SUP]the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— [SUP]3 [/SUP]that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And we are writing these things so that our[SUP][a][/SUP] joy may be complete.
[h=3]Walking in the Light[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us[SUP]10 [/SUP].


By the way, your false teacher Mike Desario is in leagues with Jed Smock, Jesse Morrell, Kerrigan Skelly and the bunch of Pelagian-Finneyists that are spreading lies on Youtube and on college campuses. Their theology is abysmal, and so is their behavior. They go on college campuses speaking the most nasty and perverse things to those young people. I think they are sexual perverts themselves actually. They are totally obsessed with talking about sex to them.

I can post videos of their nastiness if anyone wants to see them.

These false teachers also deny the fact that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. Fine enough..that condemns them right there. Beware anyone who listens to their vile and blasphemous teachings.

Faith and obedience are the same thing. One does not produce the other. Faithfulness to God is obedience to God.

There is no disobedience in genuine faith, not for a moment.

Paul taught we are slaves to whom we obey, sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. You believe one can be disobedient unto righteousness.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The issue is whom we yield to. Do we yield to God or do we yield to sin. The choice is ours.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obedience from the heart is what sets us free from sin, for obedience to God is the opposite of obedience to sin. One cannot obey sin and be obeying God at the same time. Hence we are to turn from obedience to sin and yield ourselves to God. It is such a simple concept even a child would understand it.

The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. It sets us apart from the filth of the world through the repentance experience whereby we approach God with a true heart seeking a cleansing. Repentance produces obedience to God, not salvation. Salvation is the outcome, salvation is the manifest state of walking with God. You think salvation comes first and then obedience comes later, thus you have disobedience in salvation, not only that but OSAS teaches that disobedience has no effect on salvation thus actual conduct is irrelevant.

Yes they do. They have to. You are a fool if you believe otherwise.

Look at this from the Westminster Confession of faith...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]
Westminster Confession of Faith

Right there it is described that the "saved" can engage in grevous sin and continue in them. That is a perfect example of "disobedience" and "salvation" existing at the same time. Of course salvation is disconnected from obedience by these people, one can be saved and obedient or disobedient.

John MacArthur states the following...

Examine Yourself

Obedience is not disconnected from salvation? My remarks are a misrepresentation? Who is fooling who here Sparkman?

I have had many pastors tell me to my face that one can engage in vile sin and still be saved. Do you somehow think that is not disconnecting obedience from salvation? You would have to throw your reasoning faculties out the window to deny such a disconnection.

A blatant lie? Really?

Does a child molester have to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them? Answer that question and we will see who is lying here.

Will you answer the question or run and hide from it like many do?

The Westminster Confession of Faith states...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16] ]Westminster Confession of Faith

They can never fall from the state of justification due to sinning. The Westminster Confession teaches that one can disobey God and remain justified. Clearly obedience has NOTHING to do with salvation in the context of being an intrinsic aspect of salvation. Rather, the people who promote this garbage will speak of obedience as something that occurs sometime down the track. I ask WHEN? The answer is NEVER because they all believe that the sin NEVER stops.

Call me a liar all you want. The Bible clearly teaches...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

...which is something you do not believe.

 

[sparkman]

While I am strongly against OSAS, I believe in...

1. The Substitionary Atonement
2. The Imputed Righteousness of Christ.
3. Original Sin (or that all sin was passed down from Adam)
Note: I do not believe the teaching of "Original Sin" teaches "believers are enslaved to their sin", though.

These are basic Biblical teachings of Scripture that is in no way tied to the false teachings of OSAS or a sin and still be saved doctrine.

There are many verses that support these teachings in Scripture that I will address later at another time, my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you and please be well.

Well, at least you're not a Pelagian.

 

[Skinski7]

While I am strongly against OSAS, I believe in...

1. The Substitionary Atonement

Why do you believe that? Where does the Bible teach it?

From Wikipedia...

Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory)[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]

is a theory of the atonement within Christian theology, developed with the Reformed tradition.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] It argues that Christ, by his own sacrificial choice, was punished (penalised) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive the sins. It is thus a specific understanding of substitutionary atonement, where the substitutionary nature of Jesus' death is understood in the sense of a substitutionary punishment.

John MacArthur teaches the following...

And Christ died as your substitute and He bore your sins on the cross, therefore you died with Him there. This is a limiting aspect of the death of Christ. It necessarily limits the application of the atonement. The atonement, listen carefully, can only be a real substitution for those who died in Christ. I'll say that again. The atonement can only be a real substitution for those who died in Christ on the basis of those statements in that verse. The all is everyone who died in Christ, everyone for whom Christ was the substitute. That is the sense of the atonement which is limited.

...So He is the substitute only for those who believe. That's the point. Otherwise you've got a major problem because you've got Christ dying as a substitute for the whole world, that means He was bearing the sins of the whole world in a substitutionary sense. And

if, in fact, He was carrying Himself to the cross as a substitute for the sins of every person who ever lived, He would therefore have done away with the wrath of God and procured for them eternal life, and we'd all be universalists. So there has to be a limiting feature.

A Ministry of Integrity, Part 3

I could quote any number of Penal Substitution teaches teaching the same thing. Penal Substitution necessitates either Universal Salvation or a Limited Atonement. Which do you ascribe to? If you subscribe to neither view then you find yourself in a place of contradiction.

If Jesus literally bore the wrath of God as a substitute for the wrath being poured out on the sinner (as Penal Substitution teaches) then that wrath cannot be made due again. The fine is paid for in full. Penal Substitution and OSAS go hand in hand as doctrines.

Here is a post I made on this very issue...

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ubstitution-imputed-righteousness-christ.html

The main points...

1. Penal Substitution is only a 400 year old doctrine. It was invented by the reformers as an adaption of Anselm's 12th century satisfaction view. This is historical fact which one can prove very easily. Penal Substitution was not held by the early church nor does the Bible teach it.

2. What Jesus suffered on the cross can in no way be a substitute for the punishment due sin. Physical death on the cross is not the punishment due sin, the punishment due sin is the Lake of Fire and Jesus did not endure the Lake of Fire. Not only that but our crimes cannot be transferred to someone else whereby they are held guilty in our place, that would be unjust. Vice is not a transferable property, it has to be purged through repentance.

3. Penal Substitution upholds either OSAS or Universal Salvation as I outlined above. Which do you prefer?

4. Penal Substitution denies that God actually forgives sins. The sins are "paid for" NOT "forgiven." Let's us use common sense here please.

Ray Comfort describes it like this...

Most of us know that Jesus of Nazareth gave His life as a sacrifice for the sin of the world. What they don’t know is that we violated God’s Law (the Ten Commandments) and justly deserve the wrath of the moral Law, but Jesus paid our fine in full. That means that God can legally dismiss our case. He can commute our death sentence and let us live forever, because our fine was paid by Another who then rose from the dead.

https://www.facebook.com/official.Ray.Comfort/posts/417363635022821

Where does the Bible teach anything remotely close that "our fine was paid in full"? It is not there. That idea is only 400 years old. Men made it up. Jesus purchased the church, He did not pay the sinners fine. A fine paid is not a fine forgiven. This stuff is so plainly obvious.

5. A substitutional legal exchange (as taught in Penal Substitution) concludes that salvation is purely FORENSIC. It has God PRETENDING that the sinner has the "righteousness of Christ" whilst He pretended that Jesus was "guilty of the sinners crimes." Thus people are induced into TRUSTING that this provisional transaction took place and that it is the basis of salvation. No wonder they reject that DOING is a requirement of salvation because, in their minds, such a thing is "adding to the finished work of the cross."

Can you grasp this? Think about it. Use your reason. What does the Bible actually teach?

6. Penal Substitution completely negates the release from the literal bondage of sin. Due to salvation being premised off a provisional legal exchange only, obeying sin or not obey sin has NOTHING to do with it. Thus they will always assert that one can be obeying sin and yet covered by the provisional legal exchange they teach. Penal Substitution is satanic to the core, it is a means to uphold "ye can sin and not surely die."

7. If the sins of sinners were literally transferred to the account of Jesus then Jesus would not have been without spot. Jesus would have been marred by our spots when offering Himself up to God. 2Cor 5:21 is speaking of the MANIFEST TRANSFORMATION that is wrought through the cross. We are made the righteousness of God IN HIM (ie. walking/abiding in the Spirit of His life) for he was "made sin for us" (a figurative expression because no-one can literally be "made" sin because sin is a description of choosing vice, sin is not a substance which can be transferred. Again use reason here.

Jesus was made "like unto sinful flesh." Is your calf muscle literally sinful? No, it is meat. These are figurative expressions where a subject is personified to make a point. Writers have personified things ever since writers began to write. Jesus is a door, we are to eat His body and drink His blood etc. Likewise Jesus "being made sin for us" is a figurative statement pertaining to the nature of his sacrifice as a SIN OFFERING.

You can choose to believe in Penal Substitution if you want but you are only deceiving yourself if you do so. It also demonstrates an ignorance as to the real reasons as to why Jesus died on our behalf. Read the book of Hebrews which explains it in detail. The book of Hebrews says not a word about Penal Substitution nor does any other book of the Bible.

2. The Imputed Righteousness of Christ.

Where does the Bible teach this? It doesn't. The Bible teaches that FAITH is reckoned as righteousness (Rom 4:5). Faith is tied to a walk (Rom 4:12), upholding the law (Rom 3:31), and working by love (Gal 5:6). That is what God reckons as righteousness. There is no transfer or credit of the obedient track record of Jesus.

The doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" was popularised (if not invented) by Martin Luther in what he called the "Blessed Exchange."

There is no need for some "Jesus cloak" to cover "our filthy rages." We are MADE the righteousness of God in Him whereby we are TRULY RIGHTEOUS. God doesn't need to fake anything and put on some Jesus glasses to look through, He sees us for what we actually are, whether that be wicked or righteous.

Here is what Luther wrote...

Is not this a beautiful, glorious exchange, by which Christ, who is wholly innocent and holy, not only takes upon himself another’s sin, that is, my sin and guilt, but also clothes and adorns me, who am nothing but sin, with his own innocence and purity?

Luther, M. (1999, c1959). Vol. 51: Luther’s works, vol. 51 : Sermons I (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther’s Works (51:III-316). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

Where does the Bible teach that? We are nothing but sin with a Jesus cloak? Jesus took upon Himself my sin and guilt? The Bible does not teach anything close to that. FAITH ITSELF is reckoned as righteousness. There is no transfer. He that DOES what is righteous is righteous, that is what the Bible teaches.

This teaching is simply stupid. It is asinine and one might as well believe in the tooth fairy for it would have the same basis in fact, ie. none. Guilt cannot literally be transferred to another, it is all figurative to represent an expiation of our past crimes through the means by which we approach God. Jesus was NEVER guilty of any sin, let alone our sins. That is blasphemy. Jesus was without spot.

3. Original Sin (or that all sin was passed down from Adam)
Note: I do not believe the teaching of "Original Sin" teaches "believers are enslaved to their sin", though.

Sin is not a transferable property. Sin is a CHOICE.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that "sin was passed down from Adam." That is ridiculous. "Death" was passed down for "all sinned." In other words "we died because we sinned unto death" just like Adam did. Sin is not some biological defect or some ethereal substance, that kind of thinking is from Gnostic philosophy, thinking which Augustine was able to popularise.

Why wasn't sin passed down to Jesus? Do you believe like John MacArthur that sin is passed down in the male sperm and because Jesus was born of a virgin he bypassed this biological defect? Fairy tales.

Here is what John MacArthur believes...

Nowhere or at no point is a man's depravity more manifest than in the procreative act. You say, "Why do you say that?" Well, we know man is a sinner by what he says, we know man is a sinner by what he does. We know man is a sinner by the attitude, the bearing that he carries. We can see on the outside sinful deeds. But how do we know man is a sinner at the base of his character? How do we know man is a sinner at the root of his existence? The answer, by what he creates. Whatever comes from the loins of man is wicked because man is wicked. So I say to you, nowhere then in the anatomy of a man or in the activity of a man is depravity more manifest than in the procreative act because it is at precisely that point which he demonstrates the depth of his sinfulness because he produces a sinner. And I would remind you that Jesus Christ had no human father because there was no human father who could produce a perfect person. The Spirit of God had to plant a perfect seed in Mary and bypass a human father.
The male organ then is the point at which human depravity is most demonstrated. You see not the deeds of sin but the nature of sin passed on to the next generation.

The Distinctive Qualities of the True Christian, Part 1

Can you what the doctrine of Original Sin does to the minds of people? That man is totally deceived and know not what he is saying. No wonder he believes the sin can never stop, he thinks sin is connected to the meat of the flesh. If we have meat we have sin. This is pure Gnosticism.

Check out the MacArthur Bible Study Commentary...

It was the male organ which most clearly demomnstrated the depth of depravity because it carries the seed that produced depraved sinners.

https://books.google.com/books?id=polW0PX25nkC&pg=PT93&lpg=PT93#v=onepage&q&f=false

Instead of taking responsibility for the choices we make the root cause of sin is our flesh bodies to these people. Is it any wonder they hold to OSAS and an abstract salvation? Not at all. They are beholden to deep seated deceptions which produce OSAS. OSAS is merely a branch on a very corrupt tree. Original Sin is the root.

These are basic Biblical teachings of Scripture that is in no way tied to the false teachings of OSAS or a sin and still be saved doctrine.

They are not basic Biblical teaching of Scripture. They are tied to the false teachings of OSAS or a sin and still be saved doctrine. They are the ROOTS of deception.

Original Sin entered the nominal church in the Fourth Century.
Penal Substitution entered the nominal church in the 16th century.
Imputed Righteousness of Christ entered the nominal church in the 16th century.

There are many verses that support these teachings in Scripture that I will address later at another time, my friend.

No there are not. There are quite a few verses which are isolated from the harmonous message of the entire Bible and the doctrines are read in to them via conjecture. They don't stand up to logic or careful examination.

Anyways, may God bless you and please be well.

I hope you look into these things instead of upholding deception. If you uphold Original Sin there is no way you can teach with any consistency that sin has to stop. Original Sin ties sin to the flesh, not choice. Original Sin teaches that BABIES ARE GUILTY, that BABIES ARE BORN EVIL. Don't buy it.

 

[Skinski7]

If you claim perfect obedience you're simply a liar or self deceived. Period. And the type of condemnation you heap on others, you are going to receive.

In fact, based on I John 1, I don't think you're saved at all.

Faith and obedience are not the same thing. Faith produces obedience. You are confusing the cause and the effect. There can be no effect without a cause.

Reformed theology does not teach that obedience and salvation are disconnected. Faith causes salvation causes obedience. Obedience is never perfect.

Consider these saints who sinned:

·Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife
·Noah got drunk after the Flood
·David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed
·Samson engaged in extramarital sex
·Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
·The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
·The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife

Just because people sinned in the past does not mean they were forgiven in the commission of those sins. The Bible clearly states...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

No amount of foolish rhetoric or twisting of scripture will undo that fact the sin has to be confessed and forsaken BEFORE mercy is granted.

1John 1:8-9 is speaking of coming clean with God when we initially approach Him seeking reconciliation. We don't hide our sin, if we say we have no sin then the truth is not in us, we would have lies in us instead. The sentiment of John is the exact same sentiment as Pro 28:13. We confess (say we have sin) and FORSAKE that sin (walk in the light) and THEN and ONLY THEN is mercy granted whereby we are cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness.

Yet you don't believe the Bible. You don't believe Proverbs 28:13. You don't believe many other parts of the Bible which command us to forsake all evil. You think you will always be evil and that you just have to admit that fact, thus you believe in "evil Christians" which is an oxymoron. This is why you did not respond to the question I asked you but only responded with rhetoric where you argue in favour of being able to sin and not surely die.

By the way, your false teacher Mike Desario is in leagues with Jed Smock, Jesse Morrell, Kerrigan Skelly and the bunch of Pelagian-Finneyists that are spreading lies on Youtube and on college campuses.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are trying to lump people together in order to discredit people.

Jesse Morrell is a promoter of Charles Finney and Moral Government and he is a campus preacher. What does that have to do with Mike Desario? How are they in league?

Jed Smock is also a campus preacher who I suspect uphold Moral Government theology, I don't know as I have not paid attention to the man except I did see a few clips once which I thought were awful. That is neither here or there as it has nothing to do with Jed Smock being "in league" with Mike Desario.

Kerrigan Skelly is likewise a campus/street preachers. As far as I know he does not uphold Moral Government theology and doesn't really focus in that area. He seems to have a reasonably sound approach to apologetics in order to get people to think. How is he "in league" with Mike? I am aware of Mike sending some questions to Kerrigan once with some concerns that Mike had which I think Kerrigan dismissed but that is all. There is no "league" going on.

Mike is Mike, Jed is Jed, Jesse is Jesse, Kerrigan is Kerrigan. So what? The only individual I have recommended is Mike Desario for his material pretty well demolishes many of the modern deceptions.

What is your fixation with these men? Why not be fixated with what the Bible actually teaches? I use scripture in all my posts and I am careful to explain my position. You don't really address anything I write and you don't address the scriptures I raise. All you do is run to 1:Joh 1:8-9 and run to "people sinning" in the Bible. Your posts are without any real substance. The reason being is that your religion has no substance, it is a myth and a hoax, a fairy tail, a conglomeration of lies which collapses when compared to the Bible.

Their theology is abysmal, and so is their behavior. They go on college campuses speaking the most nasty and perverse things to those young people. I think they are sexual perverts themselves actually. They are totally obsessed with talking about sex to them. What has any of that have to do with anything I have written. What does any of that have to do with Mike Desario? Have you seen him on a campus speaking nasty and perverse things? Have you seen me on campus saying nasty and perverse things? NO.

I can post videos of their nastiness if anyone wants to see them.

These false teachers also deny the fact that Christ was the propitiation for our sins. Do they? I am not aware of that, and so what if they do? What does their denial, if true, have to do with anything I have written. I don't deny that Jesus Christ is a propitiation for our sins. In fact Propitiation means MERCY SEAT and it is symbolic of how we approach God in repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus whereby the blood is sprinkled on us cleansing us of all sin, whereby our sins are expiated.

Again, most everything you have written is without substance. You don't engage the scriptures I bring up, you are not able to substantiate your doctrine, you refuse to answer questions I ask, instead you start speaking of other people in some vain attempt to discredit via association.

Fine enough..that condemns them right there. Beware anyone who listens to their vile and blasphemous teachings.

Care to address anything substantial instead of misdirecting towards tangents?

 

[BradC]

Anyways, if a believer is allowed to sin and still be saved, then how exactly are they to abhor that which is evil?

"Abhor that which is evil" (Romans 12:9).

The 'evil' spoken of in this verse is 'poneros' not 'kakos'. Poneros evil is one that is full of labors that involves more than one person. Kakos is intrinsic that is found in the heart of every individual person born in sin which is deceitful and desperately wicked. Poneros evil has to do with the tongue and various strategies that conspire against those who represent God as ambassadors who have his Spirit. The purpose of this evil to shut the mouth of those who God has raised up in the church to be his mouthpiece. This is the evil that we are to abhor and be horrified of because of the damage that is can cause within the church to discredit the testimony of Christ in his body.

 

[sparkman]

Skinski, I can deal with your assertions but it would help if you'd keep them down to a decent number.

Here's a question I have for you, though.

You apparently have a problem with limited atonement. However, Pelagians have a form of limited atonement as well. Due to your denial that babies have original sin, if a child dies in infancy, they do not need the blood of Jesus Christ for their sins, as they don't have any sin. So, Pelagians have a form of limited atonement themselves. Only sinners need the blood of Jesus Christ for their sins. If sin is not imputed to a baby, then there is no need for the blood of Christ to cover their sin.

Can you tell me why you have issues with limited atonement since you have a form of it yourself?

 

[sparkman]

Skinsky, another question..if babies are born innocent without original sin, then why did God destroy babies along with the others who died in the Flood? Wouldn't it be unfair for God to destroy innocent babies along with the wicked? Why did he judge them too?

 

[Jason0047]

I hope you look into these things instead of upholding deception. If you uphold Original Sin there is no way you can teach with any consistency that sin has to stop. Original Sin ties sin to the flesh, not choice. Original Sin teaches that BABIES ARE GUILTY, that BABIES ARE BORN EVIL. Don't buy it.

Well, brother, I used to think everyone thought the same in regards to OSAS. Not all do. Some believe you must live holy or you were never born again to begin with. Granted even this version of OSAS is false, but at least they do not condone a sinful lifestyle. I can still call them my brothers if they do not make excuses for sin. Then people also differ on the teaching of Kenosis. So instead of sifting thru a ton of beliefs, I will tell you what I think those terms actually teach with Scripture. I will remind you that I still hold to the view that Scripture clearly teaches us that we are to stop in our sin. Yes, some believers can struggle with sin for a time. But a believer cannot have a mind set that they will be a slave to sin; And that they will not overcome it with Christ's help. For God's Word, prayer, the Spirit, and believers can help a believer to stop sinning. This is true Biblical repentance that is not in conflict with I have mentioned. Yes, you have a certain idea of what those terms mean. But I will tell you what I think they mean. So let's not get into labels of what you think those terms mean, but let's discuss the truth of God's Word (That may just in fact go beyond any labeling).

Give me time to explain these things with God's Word.

Then I will let you judge if they are the same or not.

Anyways, I will need a little time.
Currently I am busy today; But I will try and get to it when I have time.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[sparkman]

Skinski7, Pelagianism teaches that repentance must occur for every sin or the person will be lost.

According to Hebrews 9:7, there are sins committed in ignorance, therefore you can never confess and be forgiven of those sins, since you don't know about them.

Hebrews 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

So, my question is, since you commit sins unknowingly, how can you escape condemnation since you can never confess and repent of them?


By the way, I think it's ironic that I stated multiple times that I believe in I John 1:8-9 concerning confession and asking forgiveness of sins, but you keep accusing me otherwise.

I am just not a whitewashed sepulchre who thinks that I am the agent behind my salvation. I John 1:9 clearly states that it is God who cleanses us.

 

[Jason0047]

The 'evil' spoken of in this verse is 'poneros' not 'kakos'. Poneros evil is one that is full of labors that involves more than one person. Kakos is intrinsic that is found in the heart of every individual person born in sin which is deceitful and desperately wicked. Poneros evil has to do with the tongue and various strategies that conspire against those who represent God as ambassadors who have his Spirit. The purpose of this evil to shut the mouth of those who God has raised up in the church to be his mouthpiece. This is the evil that we are to abhor and be horrified of because of the damage that is can cause within the church to discredit the testimony of Christ in his body.

The context of the word evil is evil here; Verse 2 says be not conformed to this world, but prove what is the perfect will of God. Anything outside of God's will and design is sin. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So you cannot change what God's Word is saying here. It means what it says.

I mean, honestly. Are trying to defend that one should not hate evil things? If that is the case, then how are on Earth are you on God's side?