Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Elin]

That is because no one seems to know what faith is or how it works.

I'm thinkin' the pot is calling the kettle black. . .

Faith works that same way with everything.
You cannot cast out an evil spirit because you did a good work by giving to the poor. It has absolutely nothing to do with casting out a spirit, therefore,
there is no faith in that work.

Wrong. . .I give to the poor because of my faith in Christ which obeys his law (Mt 22:37-40).

The NT meaning of "work of faith" is the work that faith produces, and that is feeding the poor.

Is there anyone that understands this yet?

Hopefully, no one understands your shoehorned false gospel.

 

[Elin]

Nope. . .gospel according to Seabass.

Regarding salvation, that is not what the NT means by "works."

Belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism are works, things done and not mere mental assents of the mind.

Addressed above. . .

 

[Elin]

You will never get an impenitent, denier of Christ in his unforgiven sins saved.

Of course not. . .that requires the resurrection power of God in Christ by the Holy Spirit in the new birth
which raises the spiritually dead (no Holy Spirit life) sinner to eternal life.

Baptism IS where sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ, Acts 2:38. In Mk 1:16 Jesus made baptism
of EQUAL importance and necessity to salvation as believing.

Except for those who were and are saved without it, starting with the thief on the cross.

Your doctrine of Baptism limps a little.

 

[KenAllan]

After reading everything SeaBass has written shows me that he really has no Faith in Jesus Christ and no Faith in the Gospel. He believes Faith in Jesus and Faith in the Gospel is not enough to receive or keep one's Salvation. SeaBass believes its by our "Works" that we have Faith in Jesus Christ. SeaBass believers its by our "Works" that we have Faith in the Gospel.

Once a person starts "Working" for Salvation they remove themselves from the gospel of grace. To receive salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's.

Then the gospel, what SeaBass has done is said to be insufficient. SeaBass may not come right out and say this but in practice this is exactly what SeaBass is saying.

 

[Elin]

After reading everything SeaBass has written shows me that he really has no Faith in Jesus Christ and no Faith in the Gospel. He believes Faith in Jesus and Faith in the Gospel is not enough to receive or keep one's Salvation. SeaBass believes its by our "Works" that we have Faith in Jesus Christ. SeaBass believers its by our "Works" that we have Faith in the Gospel.

Once a person starts "Working" for Salvation they remove themselves from the gospel of grace. To receive salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's.

Then the gospel, what SeaBass has done is said to be insufficient.
SeaBass may not come right out and say this but
in practice this is exactly what SeaBass is saying.

Yep. . . . . . . .

 

[Jabberjaw]

I'm not sure it is ever good to get away from one of God's words.

Ours is to uphold and understand it correctly, in context of the whole counsel of God.

I just don't think it is ever ours to improve on God's words.

Then use the whole counsel of God, this verse says more than Jesus has to do works:

John 14:12 (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I heard a preacher say this morning that if water baptism is required for salvation then we're the prophets in the old covenant saved?

 

[Elin]

I'm not sure it is ever good to get away from one of God's words.

Ours is to uphold and understand it correctly, in context of the whole counsel of God.

I just don't think it is ever ours to improve on the words God uses.

Then use the whole counsel of God, this verse says more than Jesus has to do works:

John 14:12 (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

O-k-a-a-y. . .?

 

[KenAllan]

John 14:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.

What "works" is the Holy Spirit talking about here? Is He talking about the "works" for our Salvation? No. Is the Holy Spirit talking about "works" to maintain our Salvation? No.

What works did Jesus Christ do while He was on this Earth?

The works that Jesus Christ did was heal the sick, raise the bead, and He brought people to God to be Believers in Him! These are the works that Jesus Christ did.

We also can do these same works. Peter preached a sermon on the day of Pentecost and 3000 people became believers! There are many Protestant Preachers who have brought millions of people to God to become believers!

There are many Christians who have healed the sick just like Jesus did! There are many Christians who have raised the dead just like Jesus did!

These are the "works" that Jesus was talking about in John 14:12. He was NOT talking about receiving or keeping Salvation by works.

This is the problem with many of the people on this site. They love to pull a verse out and use it to prove a point that the verse is not referring to. Jabberjaw you really need to learn exactly what a verse is saying before you pull it out of context to try and prove your false teachings of works for Salvation.

 

[Eva1218]

The Works are not of man but of GOD. No one can Save themselves. Now the process is GOD Revealing HIMSELF to mankind and through that man has Faith on the experience from what GOD has Revealed by HIS SPIRIT and by SPIRIT we are led. For without the SPIRIT of GOD there is no Salvation. Faith does not Save, again it is because we are Saved we have Faith.

Blessings! !!!!!!

 

[Elin]

The Works are not of man but of GOD. No one can Save themselves. Now the process is GOD Revealing HIMSELF to mankind and through that man has Faith on the experience from what GOD has Revealed by HIS SPIRIT and by SPIRIT we are led. For without the SPIRIT of GOD there is no Salvation. Faith does not Save, again it is because we are Saved we have Faith.

Blessings! !!!!!!

"For by grace you have been saved through faith"

 

[kennethcadwell]

I heard a preacher say this morning that if water baptism is required for salvation then we're the prophets in the old covenant saved?

Well if the preacher had to ask that question then obviously there are still a few scriptures the Holy Spirit has not lead him to, for both the Mosaic and New covenant were dedicated with blood and water;


Exodus 19:10-11


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.




Hebrews 9:18-20


Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.




Exodus 29:4


And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.




1 Corinthians 10:1-2


For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

 

[KenAllan]

Eva1218 you have it backwards. We have Faith because we have heard the Word of God. And from this Faith God by His Grace brings us Salvation!

Romans 10:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and Salvation comes by Grace from God! We do not receive Faith after we receive Salvation, we have Faith BEFORE we receive Salvation BY GRACE!

Eva1218 you really need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you the Truths in the Bible instead of making up any doctrine you want.

 

[SeaBass]

That is because I was referring to one kind of confession above and another in this one.
The first kind of confession I said was not necessary for salvation was of their confession of sins and that they repent of them.
The kind of confession that I said was necessary for salvation is the kind that lines up with your faith in the work of Christ on the cross.

There is a public confession the sinner must make (Mt 10:32,33; ;Rom 10:9,10) before he can be saved and that is a profession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, professing the facts of the gospel and must hold on to that profession.

There is also a confession of sins (1 Jn 1:9) that can be made by those who are already Christians that have been baptized.

It depends on to whom you are talking about. Whether they be born again or not.
If the repentance of one born is confessed, God says they will be cleansed.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But for the unbelieving soul, their repentance it to first go from doubt to believing in Christ, and from not needing a savior to go to heaven, to knowing that one is needed and that Christ is that savior.

Nowhere does the bible say repentance remits the sins of one that is lost and unforgiven. Peter told his lost, unforgiven listeners to "repent and be baptized for remission of sins". Baptism is for the purpose of remission of sins not repentance.
1 Jn 1:9 John is writing to Christians, so that verse applies to Christians but not to those that are unforgiven and lost.

Baptism, as far as I know, is symbolic of what took place in the spirit world, but not necessary for salvation.
What you are trying to tell me is that what Paul wrote in Romans 10 is not complete, or that it's a partial truth, when he said, if I do such and such, I SHALL BE SAVED. If that is not the whole truth for one to receive salvation, then he and God lied when they said that we shall be saved.
If I have met the conditions listed, then God is obligated to do what He said He will do.
If He didn't, then He would be a liar and a hypocrite, because He told us to do what we vowed. Therefore, God has to do what He said.
And sense God is neither a liar nor a hypocrite, I can take Him at His word, and He will do just what He said, without all the other things you listed.

Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-7; 1 Cor 1:12,13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27; 1 Pet 3:21 etc all show that baptism saves.

In the context of Romans chapters 9-11, Paul is writing to Jews and proving to the Jews that they cannot rely upon their nationality/physical birth saving them...just being an Israelite born of Abraham does not save but obedience to God saves. So going into detail on every single aspect of what makes up obedience is not Paul's point but Paul is contrasting physical birth that does not save to obedience that does save.


Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Above is a verse where Paul said he taught repentance to all, Jew and Gentile. The fact Paul did not mention repentance in Rom 10:9,10 constitute a contradiction in Paul's teaching?

No, because:
1) Paul was contrasting the physical birth to obedience to the Jews in Rom 10 and did not go into all the details of obedience.
2) one must examine "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) when studying a subject as salvation. Very rarely does one or two verses tell us all there is to know about a topic, one must examine all verses that deal with that topic and Rom 10:9,10 does not tell all there is to know about salvation for there are many, many verses that deal with salvation that must be considered.

Too often some here on this forum will pull the phrases "not of works" (Eph 2:9) and "worketh not" Rom 4:5 completely out of thier contexts, then they want to isolate those two phrases from all other bible verses then wrongly declare salvation is not of works. When those verses are left in context with other bible passages one can see the "not of work" have to do with works of the OT law and trying to work to merit salvation and are not about obedience to God. Likewise one cannot pull Rom 10:9,10 out of context and isolate it from all other verses that deal with salvation.

Rom 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

What someone pulled Rom 8:24 out of it's context and isolated it from all other bible verses (as it is done with Eph 2:9; Rom 4:5) and that someone declares all one needs to be saved is "hope only", no need for belief in Christ, no need for repenting of sins, no need for confessing Christ, no need to be baptized for remission of sins all one has to do to be saved is HOPE ONLY? There would be those here saying "that is not right, that cannot be done" yet it is the very, exact thing they do with Eph 2:9; Rom 4:5. The verse does not say saved by "hope alone" just as no other verse says one is saved by "faith alone". Again, the only way one can get the bible teach salvation is by "hope alone' or by "faith alone" is by pulling verse(s) out of context, then isolating those verses from all other bible passages.

 

[notuptome]

Then use the whole counsel of God, this verse says more than Jesus has to do works:

John 14:12 (KJV)
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Notice that the word must is not in the verse. Shall do is not must do. Shall do is because it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the new creation in Christ who is ministering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

No, it's yours.

You are trying to turn salvation through faith, not works into salvation through faith plus works, but you remain in error. A person who believes and is saved has already repented and believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart - TOGETHER. This is not salvation by works, but by the time you apply your bad semantics to repent, belief, confess and reverse the scriptural order of repent/believe and add baptism to the list as a prerequisite for salvation, you turn this into salvation by works, which is what your itching ears want to hear. Your faith is clearly not exclusively in Christ for salvation but is in your mixed up 4 step check list.

They are not the exact same thing BUT the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart - TOGETHER (Romans 10:8). Also believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation PRECEDES water baptism. According to your 4 step check list, one does not believe unto righteousness, but unto confession, which is not made unto salvation, but made unto baptism, which is finally then done unto salvation. Your 4 step check list has holes in it.

This confession here is not the initial confession unto salvation of Romans 10:9,10. In John 12:42, their unwillingness to confess Christ in this isolated situation may throw some doubt on the complete genuineness of the faith of these men to some people, but they may have only had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees, but that does not mean that they must not have confessed Christ to others. The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (Jn. 18:17,25-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these Jewish rulers as well.

*Later on, we see that Peter had another weak moment. Paul even had to rebuke Peter! Read about it in (Galatians 2:11-15). "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; or before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision, just like the Jewish rulers. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.." Some public confession of Christ!

Their belief is without repentance and confession and is dead because (root of the issue) their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Of course they refuse to be water baptized. They are committed to Satan, not Christ. The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Again, their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. You still cannot grasp this DEEPER faith (there is a reason for that) which explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" instead of in Christ.

1) belief - Jn 8:24
2) repent - Lk 13:3,5
3) confess - Mt 10:32,33
4) submit to baptism - Mk 16:16

All 4 from Christ. All 4 are works. So yourself and others are now struggling in trying to find a way to get a man saved without doing these works.

Jn 12:42 they believed but would not confess and that confession they would not make is the public confession Christ required in Mt 10:32,33, the one made with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10 for those did not want that confession to be public for they did not want to be put out of the synagogue.

One that does not repent confess or submit to baptism cannot have "trust and reliance" in Christ when they do not do what Christ said, cannot even call Him "Lord" Lk 6:46. Therefore a "belief only" is dead for it has no "trust or reliance" upon Christ for it fails to do what Christ said to do.

 

[SeaBass]

So it's a dead faith that produces good works in order to become a living faith? How can something that is dead produce anything? Faith is made alive in Christ FIRST; saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). So faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith, it's alive in Christ. Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree? Same thing with faith.

By refusing to give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body you DEMONSTRATE that your faith is dead. Doing this is a DEMONSTRATION of our faith and not the origin of it.

Keep in mind that what James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not genuine faith. This has kept you in confusion and has you believing that we are saved "by" works. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Now keep in mind that Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), and was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated and showed his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. The work of building the ark did not earn his salvation.

It's not both. Paul said saved through faith, not works. He did not say saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9.

You continue to write a blank check with the word "obey" here and fill it in with works. This is a major stumbling block for you. As I have already explained to you numerous times, in Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

So "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine" does not equate to salvation by works. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. *1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in *Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith." In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We obey the gospel/obey that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel. That is when we are accounted as righteous/become slaves of obedience unto righteousness.

When we choose to place our faith in Christ for salvation, we have obeyed from the heart. With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. You continue to confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience which follow (works).

The simple answer is no and it's not because we are saved by works, but because good works are the demonstrative evidence that we are a Christian. The lack of doing any good works at all would demonstrate that this person is not a genuine Christian. So a Christian who does no good works at all = OXYMORON.

A dead faith is dead and remains dead until it is acted upon just as the devils' belief is dead and remains dead for they will not act upon it by repenting confessing or submitting to baptism. Some here try to get one saved by a dead faith, he can do works after he is saved but he is initially saved by a dead faith...which is not possible.


BY DOING NO WORKS in giving one food and clothing, doing NO WORKS is demonstration of a dead lifeless faith. A dead, lifeless faith cannot save yet some here are trying to get it to save. James' point being if one does not have works then they cannot even prove that even faith. Works is proof of the faith and no works is proof of lack of faith yet you try and get one saved by no works that proves this lack of faith. One with lack of faith (as proved by the lack of works) cannot be saved.

Paul did say both:Faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
obey form the heart>>>>>>justifes/frees from sin


Faith is a form of obedience/obeying from the heart.

As the following two verses also prove faith is obedience.

Rom 10:10-----believes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
Rom 10:16-----obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

Since there is just one way to be saved/made righteous, then belief is obedience. There is not TWO ways to be saved by belief only and obedience but ONE way where belief is obeying and not a mental assent of the mind where one claims he has "trust and reliance" upon Christ yet does not do what Christ says.



I asked can one become a Christian yet no ever do any good works yet still be saved?

You answered "NO" killing the faith only theology. One cannot become a Christian and remain saved without good works. Hence salvation is not possible for the Christian if he has no good works. Faith only cannot keep the Christian saved...faith only does not bring salvation nor can it maintain salvation for one that is already a Christian.

 

[SeaBass]

How does one know when you've done enough works to remain saved? And if we falter at any point, are we lost and must get saved again....and again....and again?

And can one boast that they should also receive glory for helping to keep themselves saved?

How can a gift be a gift if one must work to receive or to keep it?

It must be terrifying and exhausting to believe our own efforts keep us saved.

If there is not an exact number of good works given in the bible that the Christian is to do in order to remain saved, then that means the Christian is free from doing any good works at all yet be saved anyway?

Doing what God said to do is one what is his duty to do including the duty in doing good works, which is nothing to boast about Lk 17:10.


Jude commanded "keep yourselves in the love of God" so that is the duty of Christian less he finds himself fallen from the fatherly love of God.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes. . .it's the same as "becoming a runner," having never ever run, and yet still being a runner anyway?

That's not so hard to understand. . .


Oops! . . .looks like I got that wrong. . .how did I miss that?


OXYMORON is the necessary result of his false gospel. . .

I asked can one become a Christian and never do good works yet be saved anyway.

You answered "yes" which contradicts passages as Eph 2:10; Mt 25:31-46.

God "before ordained" Christians to walk in good works and you cannot undo that.

One is not a runner who has never ran no more than one is a slave to righteousness who has never done any righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

Of course not. . .that requires the resurrection power of God in Christ by the Holy Spirit in the new birth
which raises the spiritually dead (no Holy Spirit life) sinner to eternal life.


Except for those who were and are saved without it, starting with the thief on the cross.

Your doctrine of Baptism limps a little.

Nope, believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism are all works and you are struggling to find a way to get one saved BEFORE he does any of these works to protect the man-made teaching of faith only.