Salvation Not Possible Without Works

Atwood · May 27, 2015

If there is some grocery list of works to do in order to be saved, some bunch of hoops to jump through,
how does one explain that time after time in too many verses to even be accepted here in one post, why are there so many verses which offer salvation for nothing besides faith/belief/trusting in the Savior?
Would that make the Lord a false advertiser?

Atwood · May 27, 2015

There can only be one essential requirement on man for salvation, for salvation is offered so many abundant times just for believing/faith/trust.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
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John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
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John 3:14-18
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that
whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

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John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
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John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
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John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
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John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
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John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
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JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
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Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

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Acts 16:31a
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, . . . .
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Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

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Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

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Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law ands the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

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[All them who believe, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
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27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

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Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
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4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
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6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

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10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
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14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
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17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
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Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.

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Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

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Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
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[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down

or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

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Atwood · May 27, 2015

as I said, all the verses won't fit on this forum in one post. So here are some more separately posted:

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1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
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Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
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Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
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Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
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Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
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Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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Eph

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast
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Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
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Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
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1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
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2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
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Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
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Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
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Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
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Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
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1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
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1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
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1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Rev 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father . . . . 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.
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know1 · May 27, 2015

Atwood said:

Salvation, as in born again. The only thing most on this forum know and talk about.
I have yet to get even one person to perceive the works spoken of in James that is necessary for salvation, to be born again.
Again, it is not the same works written in Ephesians that everyone is talking about.
Salvation comes simply by acting on the gospel you heard and believed in your heart.
Faith without works is dead. The works for salvation that James is talking about are works of faith. Not of the law as in Ephesians.
A work of faith for salvation would simply be to confess Jesus as your lord and savior, after you believed in your heart the gospel you heard.
The work must correspond with your faith or believing. Hence, your confession of faith in Jesus as your lord and savior.

mailmandan · May 27, 2015

SeaBass said:

Yes, if you do not BELIEVE you will die in your sins. In Luke 8:12, Jesus said BELIEVE and be saved. According to your 4 step mixed up plan of salvation it's BELIEVE and still lost until after you accomplish 3 more additional requirements afterwards. You don't agree with Jesus. What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the ONE requirement in each of these verses? What happened to these 3 more additional requirements "after" we BELIEVE in Him?

If we don't repent "change our mind" and BELIEVE then we won't be saved. Notice how you REVERSE the scriptural order of repent and believe. To the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectorsand the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father. Those who confess Christ before men throughout their life is DESCRIPTIVE of saved believers. Those who deny Christ before men throughout their life is DESCRIPTIVE of lost unbelievers. Unbelief joined with lip service confession (Matt 7:22) = deny.

Jesus said he who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned. Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus forget to mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Christ did not "patch together" all 4 of them in your mixed up order and Christ did not use bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics to create your distorted gospel plan of works salvation.

By the time that you distort and pervert these passages of Scripture in an effort of "patching together" your perverted gospel plan, they become salvation by works and negate salvation through faith, not works. If faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, then why didn't Paul mention this in Ephesians 2:8,9? Why did he make a distinction between faith and works? Why did James make a distinction between faith and works? (James 2:14-24).

Myself and others are not struggling at all. We know that man is saved through faith and not by works. We know that repentance precedes saving faith and Christ and that the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart - TOGETHER and that belief/faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and that water baptism FOLLOWS salvation through faith (Acts 10:43-47). You are the one who is struggling to understand the truth and also to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH.

In this isolated situation with the Pharisees or throughout their lifetime? Where is the rest of the story? The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Christ before men in this isolated situation in John 18:17,25-27. Peter was a believer and we know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these Jewish rulers as well.

Christ said those who confess Him before men (believers) He will confess before His Father in heaven and those who deny Him before men He will deny before His Father in heaven. Again, the word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. So according to your logic then, Peter denied Christ 3 times publicly before men, so Jesus will deny Peter before His Father. Is that your conclusion? Let's be consistent. Romans 10:9,10 is talking about confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead. This is done upon conversion. Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation. Believers confess Christ before men throughout their lifetime (Matthew 10:32) BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You have this all mixed up.

Christ said repent and believe the gospel. Those who have done so have "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation. Your "trust and reliance" is in "water and works" and not in Christ. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart - TOGETHER. It's not about must confess but will confess. It's not believe today but still lost and finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. We submit to baptism AFTER we repent and believe in Him and are saved (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

The demons have "belief only" which is mere "mental assent." Their "trust and reliance" is in Satan, not in Christ. They may believe that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. We place our "trust and reliance" in Christ when we believe in Him/place our faith in Him for salvation. Seeking salvation by works is not doing what Jesus said to do (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

mailmandan · May 27, 2015

SeaBass said:

Faith is dead until we repent and believe the gospel. Then we act upon it by producing good works. Saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You have this out of balance. It's not a dead faith that confesses Christ and submits to baptism. The devil's belief is dead because they do not repent and believe the gospel.

Saving faith in Christ is alive, not dead. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 8 THROUGH FAITH, 9 NOT WORKS, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS. *Notice the order that you continue to reverse. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse. *Does a dead faith produce good works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith? *Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree?

Amen! The key word here is DEMONSTRATION of a dead lifeless faith. Doing good works is a DEMONSTRATION of our faith and not the origin of it.

Who is trying to get it to save? I agree with James. I just don't agree with your faulty interpretation of "salvation by works."

Exactly! I have said this many times. Works is PROOF of genuine faith and a lack of works proves a lack of faith. That's why James said I will SHOW you my faith by my works in James 2:18. How many times have I said that faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.

We are saved through faith. We obey the gospel when we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and this is from the heart - with the heart one believes unto righteousness (Romans 10:10). *This act of obedience is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience (works) which follow.

Choosing to place our faith in Christ for salvation is an act of obedience. *Again, not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience (works) which follow. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Obedience which follows is works. Faith is not baptism, faith is not multiple acts of obedience which follow faith, faith is not works.

They prove that choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience, but believes unto righteousness is not defined as multiple acts of obedience (works) which follow. Belief/faith is belief/faith and works which follow are works.

Belief is an act of obedience. Belief is not baptism. Belief is not multiple acts of obedience which follow belief. Belief is not works.

Belief only - per James - is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not genuine faith. Belief that trusts only in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel is what saves. This is done with the heart and is more than mere "mental assent" with our head that Jesus exists and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." With the heart, we trust exclusively in what happened to save us. This is "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation. Doing what Christ says afterwards is a DEMONSTRATION of our faith but not the origin of it.

I told you, that is an OXYMORON.

There is a huge difference between CLAIMING to have faith but having no works "faith only" - per James (James 2:14-24) and placing our faith only in Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). So saved by a death faith theology (which is not what I teach) is killed, but salvation by grace through faith, not works is not killed. Do you understand the difference?

How does a become a Christian and "remain" saved by good works? Is Christ an insufficient Savior? Was His finished work of redemption not enough? Does 1 Peter 1:9 say "receiving the end of your good works or the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls? From beginning "have been saved through faith" NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls? (1 Peter 1:9). Salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Actually, good works are not possible for someone who is not a Christian/is not saved (Ephesians 2:8-10). Being a Christian and having no good works at all is an OXYMORON. All Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

Faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation brings salvation and maintains it (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9). Faith that only claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of good works that it's dead, neither brings salvation or maintains it. A Christian that produces no good works is an OXYMORON. Genuine faith that produces no good works is an OXYMORON. You need to get it straight what James means by "faith only" (empty profession of faith/dead faith) and what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST alone. *These are NOT the same statements.

mailmandan · May 27, 2015

Jabberjaw said:

Christ "alone" saves us. Not Christ and works. We are saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

pwrnJC · May 27, 2015

Faith is also a GIFT....and..I see nobody mentioning the full extent of our faith when the Holy Spirit is allowed to fully engulf us, take over our mind, body and soul and be baptised in the Holy Spirit! Oops..I just broke all prodical by inserting something that most churches and Christians ignore or have very little to do with. Yet, it is also a part of our Christian heritage. I like the idea of GOD coming down to man, infusing HIS spirit within us, making us more responsive, giving us joy that makes our feet start dancing, makes our bodies more alive and vibrant, our hearts united in one accord. Yes, this is just a sign and verification that GOD imparts freely and playfully, like a real Father who plays with his children. Who cares if we kneel, cry, laugh, fall down or jump? Even in a crowd, God deals one on one...and he knows each of our personalities to be a perfect gentleman, causing no confusion. When we leave a worship and praise service where the Hoy Spirit was invited to be part of ...our batteries are charged up and our joy that goes beyond our understanding is 'over the top'...what a natural high we get! Who says that CHRISTIANS are to be dullards?

valiant · May 27, 2015

We are always a little concerned at glib phrases like 'once saved, always saved' because they carry within them the grave danger of complacency. While we believe the statement is in fact true we must always enter the firm caveat, 'as long as a person is really saved', and the only final test of that from the Bible’s point of view is to be found in their subsequent lives. For when Jesus Christ saves someone that salvation is effective. ‘If any man is in Christ Jesus he is a new creature, old things pass away and verything becomes new’ (2 Corinthians 5.17).

We do not by this wish to throw doubt on a person's faith, but the Bible does not just look on salvation as being a fire insurance. Being saved is not all about escaping Hell. It is about wanting to be transformed and made like Christ. In the Bible salvation is a mighty activity of God which does not fail in its purpose. It is true that it saves us from Hell, but it also saves us from ourselves. Thus it teaches different aspects of 'salvation'.

[*] 1). It speaks of those who have been saved once and for all, ‘the ‘having been saved ones’ (aorist tense). This refers to one act of Christ which is complete for ever. As their Saviour Christ has chosen them and called them to Himself and they are now safe in Him. Their lives are 'hid with Christ in God'.
[*] 2). It speaks of those who have been saved and are therefor now saved (perfect tense). Here there is the twofold thought of what Christ has done in the past (He has saved them) and of what is true now, they are saved. They are safe in His hands and He will never let them go.
[*] 3). It speaks of those who ‘are being saved’ (present tense). This is because when Christ reaches out and saves someone it is with the purpose of them being fully saved. Having provided them with overall forgiveness He now carries out the process of making them totally free from sin. This is a lifelong work as they are ‘changed from glory into glory’ (2 Corinthians 3.18) and is only completed when they are presented perfect before Him, not only in status but in reality.
[*] 4). It speaks of those who will be saved (future tense). This is looking forward to that day when they will be presented perfect before Him.
[*]

Let us consider the Scripture references for this..

Verses in which it speaks of ‘having been saved’ include Titus 3.5; 2 Timothy 1.9 (aorist tense, something that has happened once for all).

Verses which speak of having been saved and therefore now being saved include Ephesians 2.5; 2.8 (perfect tense, something that has happened in the past the benefit of which continues to the present time). It is a result of being incorporated into Christ by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12.12-13). This is what is in mind when we say a person has been ‘saved’.

But the Bible also speaks of us as those who "are being saved" in, for example, 1 Corinthians 1.18; 2 Corinthians 2.15; (present tense - a process going on).

And it speaks of those who ‘will be saved’ in 1 Corinthians 3.15; 5.5; 2 Corinthians 7.10; 1 Thessalonians 5.9; 2 Thessalonians 2.13 (future tense - something yet to happen - and equivalents).

In other words, when God ‘saves’ someone they are saved once and for all, and it is fully effective. But if it is genuine it means that it will then result in a process by which they are being ‘changed from glory into glory’(2 Corinthians 3.18), with the final guarantee of a completed process. If the salvation is not progressing, even though slowly, then its genuineness must be questioned. The Saviour does not fail in His work.

Consider a man drowning at sea, in a fierce storm, clinging to a life raft with one hand, his other arm broken and trailing behind, and both his legs paralysed, having been many hours in the freezing water and suffering from hypothermia, more dead than alive. Then along comes the life boat and drags him out and he gasps, hardly able to speak because of the seriousness of his condition, "I am saved". Well, it is true. He is no longer doomed. But he has a long way to go. He would not have much confidence in his salvation if they put him to one side in the bow of the boat, with the waves lashing over him, and said to him, "Well, you’re saved now", and then went off and played cards and then practised turning the lifeboat over. His confidence and dependence lie in a fully trained and capable crew who are dedicated to warming him up, treating him and getting him to hospital so that he can be fully restored.

So as they get to work on him, wrapping him in a blanket and gently warming his frozen limbs, trying to set his broken arm and doing everything else necessary to restore him to some kind of normality, he can begin to have hope and think gratefully to himself, "I am being saved". But he may well still be aware of the winds howling round, and the boat heaving in the heavy seas, and the pain and agony of his limbs, and he may then look forward and think, "I will soon be saved".

If those crewmen, and the ambulance waiting for him on shore on that terrible night, can be so dedicated, can we think that the One Who died on a cross for us on an even more terrible night, can be less dedicated? He does not just want us in the lifeboat. He wants us fully restored. And that is what He is determined to have. And we can be sure that the Good Shepherd and the Great Physician will not fail in His task. But if we want to be saved it is full salvation that we must want! We cannot say, ‘Lord, save me, but leave me as I am’.
This salvation is entered into by an act of faith and commitment. As we genuinely recognise our need to be saved (in every way) from sin we commit ourselves completely to the One Who Saves (the Saviour), and trust Him to carry out the work, knowing that once He has begun the good work He will carry it out to the end (Philippians 1.6). We are then ‘saved’, and have entered the process of ‘being saved’.

Notice that the act of commitment being described is not speaking of our commitment to do certain things, as though we could somehow merit salvation. It is an act of commitment of ourselves into His saving mercy and power as we admit that we cannot save ourselves.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

(1)Dead faith only>>>>>>(2)saves>>>>>>>>>>(3)then one does works.

A faith is DEAD without works. Can a dead faith only save? No. So the above scenario cannot be possible. The whole process begins and ends at (1) and cannot move passed (1) since a dead faith cannot do anything. No verse teaches a (1)dead faith only (2)saves.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

It is in the bible where people are told to save themselves, save thyself, cleanse yourselves, etc. Not accepting that man has a role in his own salvation in choosing to obey Christ (Heb 5:9) leads to contradictions, false theologies.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

The ones that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH THE WILL of My Father. The works those people were doing in v23 were not the works of the Father. The part of this text that consistently gets bypassed by some is Jesus saying the ones that enter the kingdom are the ones that DOETH the will of the Father Mt 7:21.

JaumeJ · May 27, 2015

Good works are produced by faith. Anyone teaching these works are somehow being under the law is under the law, for he still remains blind to thanksgiving being automatic to those saved.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

Seabass: There is a public confession the sinner must make (Mt 10:32,33; ;Rom 10:9,10)
before he can be saved.

Elin: baloney

Christ: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:32,33.
Rom 10:10 "...with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation"

So your man-made faith only doctrine has you calling the words of Christ and Paul 'baloney'.

Faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>>>>saves

Only one way to be saved so faith must include confession or that faith will not save, Jn 12:42.

Faith is a gift in the sense God has allowed men to have faith, not a gift in the sense God determines who will or will not have faith thereby putting moral culpability upon God for the faithless.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

JaumeJ said:

Can a Christian (one with faith) not have good works and his faith only (void of good works) save him anyway?

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

You are refuting your own argument now.

You say "Dead faith is no saving faith--only a counterfeit faith."
Yet yourself and others here a desperately trying to get one saved by a dead faith only:

(1)dead faith only>>>>>>>>(2)saves>>>>>>>>>>(3)then do works

A dead faith only does not produce salvation. Why? It's dead and cannot do anything. that (1) faith only is dead being void of works.

Paul: obedience unto salvation
Elin: obedience because of salvation

As always, I will go with what Paul says.

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

No, you are trying to create the impossible by saying:
one is a runner who has never ran,
one is a slave to righteousness who has never done righteousness.

Neither is possible.

notuptome · May 27, 2015

Jabberjaw said:

Grace alone saves those who are saved. Nothing can be added to Gods grace. Even the faith to believe in Gods grace is given by God and not created by man.

You are attempting to make the result the cause of salvation. We confess because we are saved that is why it is unto salvation and not to be saved.

Still unwilling to let God do the saving? Won't take the gift unless you can repay in some fashion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

SeaBass · May 27, 2015

Elin said:

Rev 20:12,13 men will be judge according to their WORKS, therefore whether one receives salvation or condemnation depends upon his WORKS.

James 2:25 Rahab justified by WORKS
James 2:24 a man is justified by WORKS
James 2;21 Abraham justified by WORKS

Not only is the word "works" associated with salvation, the words 'obey" 'obedience' 'doeth' are associated with salvation, Heb 5:9; Mt 7:21, etc, etc.

notuptome · May 27, 2015

SeaBass said:

Salvation is by grace and not the faith or merits of man.

How can one who is evil do good works? Luke 11:13

Who are you to judge?

The Holy Spirit is the worker of good works in the Christian.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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