Major problems in Mark's account of Jesus' Resurrection appearances

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G

Galahad

Guest
#41
So on your basis we must believe everything that any crank like you says just because they say 'the Holy Spirit told me'?

To the word and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them.'

All we genuinely know of the teaching of Jesus is found in the New Testament. That is our ONLY authority for what He said.

Valiant, I believe the Old Testament also reveals some things about the teaching and mission of the Messiah, the Christ, Jesus. As to Jesus' life and His teachings directly from Him, yes, the New Testament is the only authority.

As you know (according to your statement) the Mormons have a wild imagination as to who Jesus is. Their authority? Not the New Testament. Rather Joseph Smith.
 
G

Galahad

Guest
#42
Valiant, I believe the Old Testament also reveals some things about the teaching and mission of the Messiah, the Christ, Jesus. As to Jesus' life and His teachings directly from Him, yes, the New Testament is the only authority.

As you know (according to your statement) the Mormons have a wild imagination as to who Jesus is. Their authority? Not the New Testament. Rather Joseph Smith.
Valiant, I see you stated as much in post 38. Okay.
 
G

Galahad

Guest
#44
Christ is not simply the personification of God’s revelation to man through His word, but God’s perfect revelation of Himself!
Folks, I was going to say that very thing. So I claim the copyright to that statement.

Actually, everyone who desires to learn John's gospel especially as it is introduced in John 1:1, the statement above is most beneficial.
 
G

Galahad

Guest
#45
A simple statement Jesus made to His disciples..... "I'm going to send you another counselor (like I have been to you) to continue to teach you."

He did not say, "I'm leaving, so now grab your Bibles to find out what to do."
Well of course he didn't say that.

What translation would He have selected? The King James 1611! How about the New International Version 1978? Or the New Life Version 1986.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#46
Well of course he didn't say that.

What translation would He have selected? The King James 1611! How about the New International Version 1978? Or the New Life Version 1986.
I dunno, you're the one who seems to worship a book.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
52
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#47
I dunno, you're the one who seems to worship a book.
Psalm 119 THE WORD OF YAHWEH

ALEPH

119:1
Blessed are they who are perfect in the way,
Who walk in the law of Yahweh.

2 Blessed are they who keep his testimonies,
Who seek him with the whole heart.
3 Yea, they do no unrighteousness;
They walk in his ways.

4 You have commanded [us] your precepts,
That we should observe them diligently.

5 Oh that my ways were established
To observe your statutes!
6 Then shall I not be put to shame,
When I have respect unto all your commandments.

7 I will give thanks unto you with uprightness of heart,
When I learn your righteous judgments.

8 I will observe your statutes;
Oh forsake me not utterly.


BETH

9 Wherewith shall a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed [thereto] according to your word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought you;
Oh let me not wander from your commandments.
11 Your word have I laid up in my heart,
That I might not sin against you.

12 Blessed are you, O Yahweh;
Teach me your statutes.

13 With my lips I have declared all the ordinances of your mouth.

14 I have rejoiced in the way of your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.

15 I will meditate on your precepts
And have respect unto your ways.
16 I will delight myself in your statutes;
I will not forget your word.


GIMEL

17 Deal bountifully with your servant,
That I may live;
So will I observe your word.
18 Open my eyes,
That I may behold wondrous things out of your law.

19 I am a sojourner in the earth;
Hide not your commandments from me.

20 My soul breaks for the longing
That it has unto your ordinances at all times.

21 You have rebuked the proud,
Who are cursed,
Who wander from your commandments.

22 Take away from me reproach and contempt;
For I have kept your testimonies.

23 Princes also sat and talked against me;
[But] your servant did meditate on your statutes.

24 Your testimonies also are my delight
[And] my counselors.


DALETH

25 My soul cleaves unto the dust;
Quicken me according to your word.

26 I declared my ways,
And you answered me.

Teach me your statutes.
27 Make me to understand the way of your precepts;
So shall I meditate on your wondrous works.

28 My soul melts for heaviness;
Strengthen me according unto your word.

29 Remove from me the way of falsehood;
And grant me your law graciously.
30 I have chosen the way of faithfulness;
Your ordinances have I set [before me];
31 I cleave unto your testimonies;
O Yahweh, put me not to shame.
32 I will run the way of your commandments,
When you shall enlarge my heart.


HE

33 Teach me, O Yahweh, the way of your statutes;
And I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding,
and I shall keep your law;
Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of your commandments;
For therein do I delight.

36 Incline my heart unto your testimonies,
And not to covetousness.
37 Turn away my eyes from beholding vanity
And quicken me in your ways.

38 Confirm unto your servant your word,
Which [is in order] unto the fear of you.

39 Turn away my reproach whereof I am afraid;
For your ordinances are good.

40 Behold, I have longed after your precepts;
Quicken me in your righteousness.


VAV

41 Let your lovingkindnesss also come unto me, O Yahweh,
Even your salvation,
According to your word.
42 So shall I have an answer for him who reproaches me;
For I trust in your word.
43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth;
For I have hoped in your ordinances.
44 So shall I observe your law continually
For ever and ever.
45 And I shall walk at liberty;
For I have sought your precepts.
46 I will also speak of your testimonies before kings
And shall not be put to shame.

47 And I will delight myself in your commandments,
Which I have loved.
48 I will lift up my hands also unto your commandments,
Which I have loved;
And I will meditate on your statutes.


ZAYIN

49 Remember the word unto your servant,
Because you have made me to hope.
50 This is my comfort in my affliction;
For your word has quickened me.
51 The proud have had me greatly in derision;
[Yet] have I not swerved from your law.
52 I have remembered your ordinances of old, O Yahweh,
And have comforted myself.

53 Hot indignation has taken hold upon me,
Because of the wicked who forsake your law.

54 Your statutes have been my songs
In the house of my pilgrimage.
55 I have remembered your name, O Yahweh, in the night,
And have observed your law.
56 This I have had,
Because I have kept your precepts.

CHETH

57 Yahweh is my portion;
I have said that I would observe your words.

58 I entreated your favor with my whole heart;
Be merciful unto me according to your word.

59 I thought on my ways,
And turned my feet unto your testimonies.
60 I made haste
And delayed not
To observe your commandments.

61 The cords of the wicked have wrapped me round;
[But] I have not forgotten your law.

62 At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto you
Because of your righteous ordinances.

63 I am a companion of all them who fear you
And of them who observe your precepts.

64 The earth, O Yahweh, is full of your lovingkindness;
Teach me your statutes.


TETH

65 You have dealt well with your servant, O Yahweh,
According unto your word.

66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge;
For I have believed in your commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray;
But now I observe your word.
68 You are good and do good;
Teach me your statutes.
69 The proud have forged a lie against me;
With my whole heart will I keep your precepts.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease;
But I delight in your law.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted;
That I may learn your statutes.

72 The law of your mouth is better unto me
Than thousands of gold and silver.


YODH

73 Your hands have made me
And fashioned me;
Give me understanding,
That I may learn your commandments.

74 They who fear you shall see me and be glad,
Because I have hoped in your word.

75 I know, O Yahweh, that your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness you have afflicted me.
76 Let, I pray you, your lovingkindness be for my comfort,
According to your word unto your servant.
77 Let your tender mercies come unto me, that I may live;
For your law is my delight.

78 Let the proud be put to shame;
For they have overthrown me wrongfully;
[But] I will meditate on your precepts.

79 Let those who fear you turn unto me;
And they shall know your testimonies.

80 Let my heart be perfect in your statutes,
That I be not put to shame.


KAPH

81 My soul faints for your salvation;
[But] I hope in your word.
82 My eyes fail for your word,
While I say, When will you comfort me?
83 For I am become like a wine-skin in the smoke;
Yet do I not forget your statutes.
84 How many are the days of your servant?
When will you execute judgment on them who persecute me?

85 The proud have digged pits for me,
Who are not according to your law.
86 All your commandments are faithful;
They persecute me wrongfully;
Help me.
87 They had almost consumed me upon earth;
But I forsook not your precepts.
88 Quicken me after your lovingkindness;
So shall I observe the testimony of your mouth.


LAMEDH

89 For ever, O Yahweh,
Your word is settled in heaven.
90 Your faithfulness is unto all generations;
You have established the earth,
And it abides.
91 They abide this day according to your ordinances;
For all things are your servants.

92 Unless your law had been my delight,
I should then have perished in my affliction.
93 I will never forget your precepts;
For with them you have quickened me.

94 I am yours, save me;
For I have sought your precepts.
95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me;
[But] I will consider your testimonies.

96 I have seen an end of all perfection;
[But] your commandment is exceeding broad.


MEM

97 Oh how love I your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98 Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers;
For your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the aged,
Because I have kept your precepts.

101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way,
That I might observe your word.
102 I have not turned aside from your ordinances;
For you have taught me.

103 How sweet are your words unto my taste!
[Yea, sweeter] than honey to my mouth!

104 Through your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.

NUN

105 Your word is a lamp unto my feet
And light unto my path.

106 I have sworn and have confirmed it
That I will observe your righteous ordinances.

107 I am afflicted very much;
Quicken me, O Yahweh, according unto your word.

108 Accept, I beseech you, the freewill-offerings of my mouth, O Yahweh,
And teach me your ordinances.

109 My soul is continually in my hand;
Yet do I not forget your law.
110 The wicked have laid a snare for me;
Yet have I not gone astray from your precepts.

111 Your testimonies have I taken as a heritage forever;
For they are the rejoicing of my heart.
112 I have inclined my heart to perform your statutes
For ever,
Even unto the end.


SAMEKH

113 I hate them who are of a double mind;
But your law do I love.
114 You are my hiding-place and my shield;
I hope in your word.
115 Depart from me, you* evil-doers,
That I may keep the commandments of my God.
116 Uphold me according unto your word,
That I may live;
And let me not be ashamed of my hope.

117 Hold me up,
And I shall be safe
And shall have respect unto your statutes continually.

118 You have set at nought all them who err from your statutes;
For their deceit is falsehood.
119 You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross;
Therefore I love your testimonies.

120 My flesh trembles for fear of you;
And I am afraid of your judgments.


AYIN

121 I have done justice and righteousness;
Leave me not to my oppressors.
122 Be surety for your servant for good;
Let not the proud oppress me.
123 My eyes fail for your salvation
And for your righteous word.

124 Deal with your servant according unto your lovingkindness
And teach me your statutes.
125 I am your servant;
Give me understanding,
That I may know your testimonies.

126 It is time for Yahweh to work;
[For] they have made void your law.

127 Therefore
I love your commandments above gold,
Yea, above fine gold.
128 Therefore
I esteem all [your] precepts concerning all [things] to be right;
[And] I hate every false way


PE

129 Your testimonies are wonderful;
Therefore
My soul keeps them.

130 The opening of your words gives light;
It gives understanding unto the simple.

131 I opened wide my mouth and panted;
For I longed for your commandments.
132 Turn unto me and have mercy upon me,
As you use to do unto those who love your name.
133 Establish my footsteps in your word;
And let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
134 Redeem me from the oppression of man;
So will I observe your precepts.
135 Make your face to shine upon your servant
And teach me your statutes.
136 Streams of water run down my eyes,
Because they observe not your law.


TSADHE

137 Righteous are you, O Yahweh,
And upright are your judgments.
138 You have commanded your testimonies in righteousness
And very faithfulness.

139 My zeal has consumed me,
Because my adversaries have forgotten your words.

140 Your word is very pure;
Therefore your servant loves it.

141 I am small and despised;
[Yet] do I not forget your precepts.

142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
And your law is truth.

143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me;
[Yet] your commandments are my delight.

144 Your testimonies are righteous forever;
Give me understanding, and I shall live.


QOPH

145 I have called with my whole heart.
Answer me, O Yahweh;
I will keep your statutes.
146 I have called unto you;
Save me,
And I shall observe your testimonies.

147 I anticipated the dawning of the morning and cried;
I hoped in your words.
148 My eyes anticipated the night-watches,
That I might meditate on your word.

149 Hear my voice according unto your lovingkindness;
Quicken me, O Yahweh, according to your ordinances.

150 They draw nigh who follow after wickedness;
They are far from your law.
151 You are nigh, O Yahweh;
And all your commandments are truth.

152 Of old have I known from your testimonies
That you have founded them forever.


RESH

153 Consider my affliction and deliver me;
For I do not forget your law.
154 Plead my cause and redeem me;
Quicken me according to your word.

155 Salvation is far from the wicked;
For they seek not your statutes.
156 Great are your tender mercies, O Yahweh;
Quicken me according to your ordinances.

157 Many are my persecutors
And my adversaries;
[Yet] have I not swerved from your testimonies.
158 I beheld the treacherous
And was grieved,
Because they observe not your word.
159 Consider how I love your precepts;
Quicken me, O Yahweh, according to your lovingkindness.

160 The sum of your word is truth;
And everyone of your righteous ordinances [endures] forever.


SHIN

161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause;
But my heart stands in awe of your words.
162 I rejoice at your word,
As one who finds great spoil.

163 I hate and abhor falsehood;
[But] your law do I love.

164 Seven times a day do I praise you,
Because of your righteous ordinances.

165 Great peace have they who love your law;
And they have no occasion of stumbling.

166 I have hoped for your salvation, O Yahweh,
And have done your commandments.
167 My soul has observed your testimonies;
And I love them exceedingly.
168 I have observed your precepts
And your testimonies;
For all my ways are before you.


TAV

169 Let my cry come near before you, O Yahweh;
Give me understanding according to your word.
170 Let my supplication come before you;
Deliver me according to your word.

171 Let my lips utter praise;
For you teach me your statutes.
172 Let my tongue sing of your word;
For all your commandments are righteousness.

173 Let your hand be ready to help me;
For I have chosen your precepts.
174 I have longed for your salvation, O Yahweh;
And your law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live,
And it shall praise you;
And let your ordinances help me.

176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep;
Seek your servant;
For I do not forget your commandments.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#49
Dear Marc,

Thank you for writing!

You are exactly right that verse 19 suggests that this time Jesus appeared was right before the Ascension. And this is exactly why I said that Mark's account is misleading. You yourself have been misled into thinking that this appearance (when Jesus appeared to prove the two walkers correct) was just before the Ascension.

The problem is that as Luke 24 said, this particular appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the Resurrection:
24:13 "that same day" as the empty tomb was found, the two apostles went to Emmaus and saw Jesus
24:33 "the same hour" as they saw Jesus, they went to tell the apostles
24:36: as they told the apostles this, Jesus showed up (to prove the two walkers correct)

As you can see, Luke 24 presents this particular appearance to the 11 as occurring on Day 1 or Day 2, and Luke 24 and Mark 16 both present this
as happening right before the Ascension, which was your own conclusion. However, Acts says that the Ascension was on Day 40. So that's why the passage leads people incorrectly.

Next, you wrote:

What you are suggesting is that in Luke 24, Jesus showed up on day 40 and told them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (Day 50).
The problem with this is that Luke 24 explains that this appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the resurrection (see Luke 24:13 and 24:33 - "same day"... the "same hour" the apostles went to tell the apostles).

Thus when Jesus shows up on Day 1 or 2 and tells them to stay in Jerusalem, it seems to go in the opposite direction of the appearances in Galilee on the mountain there and the Sea of Tiberias.



Regards.


Luke 24: 50-51 sets the time as the 40th day. Since verses 13-51 appear to be a connected narative we may deduce that the entire encounter occurred on the 40th day and not the first or second. therefore there is no inconsistency
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#50
Saturday 10th (Day)
(Saturday Sabbath) This was when the Passover sacrifice was inspected (i.e. when Christ rode in on a donkey and he went to the Temple). This makes sense because Exodus 12:3 says that this is the day that the Passover was to be inspected. So as Israel rejected their Messiah as their coming King (When he rode in a donkey), Israel desired to kill Him and had accepted Him as a sacrifice instead.

Tuesday 13th (Night)
(Beginning of 14th (Wednesday) - Eve of the Day of Preparation (Passover))
Jesus celebrates the Seudah Mafseket, which literally means Last Supper. This was a Jewish feast celebrating the fast of of the firstborn. The Jews would eat on this night and the firstborn would fast the next day on the Day of Preparation. Jesus was firstborn within his family so he would have fasted. For Jesus is to be the firstborn of the dead (i.e. the Last Adam) (Colossians 1:18). This also was a special New Covenant Celebration, too. For Scripture says, "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Jesus does not eat the Passover for He is to be our Passover during the following daylight hours of that same calendar day.

Wednesday the 14th (Day)
(Day of Preparation continues (Passover))
Jesus is crucified at 3:00PM (ninth hour) and is our Passover Lamb that is sacrificed for us. Christ who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. His innocent blood pays the penalty for our bondage or slavery to sin.

Wednesday 14th (Night)
At sundown of the 14th, the 15th Begins the Passover meal and the eating of unleavened bread). This was the Feast Day of the Passover / Unleavened Bread. This was a Holy Day and no servile work was to be done this day. Why? Because Jesus is the only one who can pay the price for our sins. We cannot work to save ourselves. Only Christ can save us if we allow Him to abide in us (So that He can do the good work thru us). For we are to feed off of Christ. For Christ is the living bread from Heaven; He is not real physical bread, but Christ is spiritual bread because He gives us spiritual life and sustenance.

Thursday 15th (Day)
Passover / Feast of Unleavened Bread - High Holy Sabbath Day. No servile work could be done on this day. Mary could not buy spices to anoint Jesus on this day because it was a High Holy day or High Sabbath.

Friday 16th (Day)
Mary goes out and buys spices and then prepares them all day. Mark 16:1 tells us she did this after the Sabbath. This was not after the Saturday Sabbath but it was after the high holy day Sabbath (i.e. the 15th). Mary couldn't have bought spices early morning on Sunday (After the Saturday Sabbath) because there would have been no time for her to go to the shops to buy spices and the prepare them and still arrive at the tomb when it was yet still dark out (John 20:1).

Saturday 17th (Day)
(Saturday Sabbath) Jesus rises within the closed tomb on the Saturday Sabbath at 3:00PM. For Jesus said He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. The heart of the Earth is not the grave because he was not buried in the ground. The heart of the Earth is Abraham's bosom in sheol. For he told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in that very day in Paradise. Not that evening or the next day or two days later. He told the thief that he would be with him in Paradise that very day. So Jesus' death would then start the clock of Christ being in the heart of the Earth. Jesus' resurrection takes place on a Saturday Sabbath because He is our eternal rest. This is on the 17th day which is significant thru out all of Scripture. In fact, it was the time that Noah's ark had rested on Mount Ararat before the flood waters had completely abated later on. For it was showing that God's judgment had ended and that a new life was about to begin for Noah. Just as Christ's resurrection before He obtained eternal redemption up in Heaven was about to begin a new life for us.

Sunday 18th (Before Sunrise)
Mary discovers the angel and the empty tomb. This takes place on a Sunday, the first day of the week which symbolizes a new start or beginning. Furthermore, Jesus completes his plan of redemption for mankind. For on this day Jesus had ascended to the Father and entered the Holy Temple up in Heaven by His blood and obtained eternal redemption for us. For this is where Jesus became our high priest and mediator between God the Father and us (i.e. mankind).

Side Note:

As for Mark 16:9: Well, this is not saying the actual day he had risen. This is saying how he was already risen on the first day of the week (i.e. Sunday). The text is merely clarifying that he was no longer in the tomb at this point. In other words, it would be like me saying, when I was awake on the first day of the week I had bought a nice sandwich. Does that mean I was not awake earlier on another day? No.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
52
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#51
I have read Mark over & over since 1960. I am unaware of any problem with the text. Of course there is the problem of those who have hard hearts.

The standard ending of Mark is missing only from 2 important ancient manuscripts (Sinaiticus & Vaticanus). But Vaticanus leaves a peculiar space at the end of Mark, which would be consistent with leaving room for something else. I think of Sinaiticus & Vaticanus as belonging to the same text family here. Evidence from different families & from different geographical origin sites has more weight than solitary evidence.

The shorter ending ends then with the word "gar," which I think is a difficult word with which to end a Greek text.

A simple mechanical explanation of how the ancestor of Vaticanus & Sinaiticus lost the longer ending is possible -- the last sheet in a codex wore off.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#52
I have read Mark over & over since 1960. I am unaware of any problem with the text. Of course there is the problem of those who have hard hearts.
Well, there is a textual problem, as evidenced by the manuscripts we have to have, the versions, and the divided patristic evidence. It's one thing to argue for the Long Ending (and for the record, I'm not all that bothered whether people consider it authentic or not, not a big deal), another to scrub away the history of the text and pin it all on 'hard hearts'. I think it would instead be useful and edifying to discuss the issues instead :)

The standard ending of Mark is missing only from 2 important ancient manuscripts (Sinaiticus & Vaticanus). But Vaticanus leaves a peculiar space at the end of Mark, which would be consistent with leaving room for something else. I think of Sinaiticus & Vaticanus as belonging to the same text family here. Evidence from different families & from different geographical origin sites has more weight than solitary evidence.
This is not entirely true. Mark ends at v 8 in three Greek manuscripts (the third is much later, though, and carries little weight on its own), and is also missing in many of the earliest versions (particularly Syriac, Armenian, Old Latin). There are also manuscripts (eg Bobbiensis, Regius) that either have the short/intermediate ending (which is different and unrelated to the long ending), or have both the Long and Intermediate Endings, which typically indicates uncertainty about the 'correct' text, and so both are left in (I think usually the middle one before the long one). These include manuscripts from outside the Alexandrian family, with mixed traditions, and that were discovered outside Egypt. And, of course, some of the patristic evidence (actually, most of the non-silent evidence - the likes of Origen and Clement simply never mention the issue or that part of Mark) is also non-Alexandrian fathers.

The fact that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus agree on this point when they are both independent witnesses of the Alexandrian text (they disagree in many other areas) is interesting of itself. Similarly, that any manuscript would have the intermediate ending which is barely any 'better' thematically or chronologically than ending at v.8 would seem to suggest that those scribes were transcribing from MSS that did not have the Long Ending - if they had it, they would either include it with the other ending, or substitute it in, as can be seen in some of the extant MSS.

The 2nd-3rd column gap is usually regarded as not being large enough for the LE. Vaticanus has several (off the top of my head, I think four) other occasions where gaps are left on a page, and the next book resumes on the next page, not at the beginning of the next available column (Daniel is one such example), so it's not that uncommon. Vaticanus will also typically indicate textual issues with an umlaut, but there is no such marking at the end of Mark here, nor in Sinaiticus.

The shorter ending ends then with the word "gar," which I think is a difficult word with which to end a Greek text.
The ending 'gar' is certainly uncommon, but it has precedence. Plutonius' Fifth Enead is one example. And, certainly, it is perfectly possible to end sentences in greek with a gar. It's certainly a shocking ending, but it's not linguistically impossible. At that point, we can only make subjective judgments about what Mark intended to do as he wrote.

A simple mechanical explanation of how the ancestor of Vaticanus & Sinaiticus lost the longer ending is possible -- the last sheet in a codex wore off.
I don't get what you're saying. Mark is not at the end of the codex in either of those codices, and it seems unlikely that that leaf (and only that leaf) was lost in both of those largely unrelated MSS. I may be misunderstanding what you mean, though.
 
R

rakovsky

Guest
#53
OK, so here is my best guess as to the answers to my questions:

1) Yes, the appearances in verses 9-20 were added later. Mark either ended at verse 8 or the ending has been lost.

2) (A) Yes, this is a problem.

2) (B) It's not necessarily a problem. Mark implies at least that the women told people at some point or else we wouldn't know about their vision of angels. The women could have gotten the two apostles, the apostles left, then the women saw the angel and got scared so they didn't tell anyone for another 7 hours (6 AM to 1 PM), ie they didn't tell anyone- at that time.

(C) I think it's a philosophical problem, but you can't really prove if it's true or not logically. Logically, you can say that if Jesus is real, then people are supposed to be inspired to believe in him, and the faith works so strongly because he's real. I am just skeptical if the principle of belief-salvation, disbelief-condemnation is and should be the case, because it seems to me that there are plenty of good, generous, self-sacrificing, admirable people who don't believe mentally due to rationalist skepticism.

(D) I think it's a problem.

(E) It's not necessarily a problem. He could have meant that the resurrection was the only sign that proved he was the messiah, not just that he was a miracle worker.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#55
OK, so here is my best guess as to the answers to my questions:

1) Yes, the appearances in verses 9-20 were added later. Mark either ended at verse 8 or the ending has been lost.

2) (A) Yes, this is a problem.

2) (B) It's not necessarily a problem. Mark implies at least that the women told people at some point or else we wouldn't know about their vision of angels. The women could have gotten the two apostles, the apostles left, then the women saw the angel and got scared so they didn't tell anyone for another 7 hours (6 AM to 1 PM), ie they didn't tell anyone- at that time.

(C) I think it's a philosophical problem, but you can't really prove if it's true or not logically. Logically, you can say that if Jesus is real, then people are supposed to be inspired to believe in him, and the faith works so strongly because he's real. I am just skeptical if the principle of belief-salvation, disbelief-condemnation is and should be the case, because it seems to me that there are plenty of good, generous, self-sacrificing, admirable people who don't believe mentally due to rationalist skepticism.

(D) I think it's a problem.

(E) It's not necessarily a problem. He could have meant that the resurrection was the only sign that proved he was the messiah, not just that he was a miracle worker.
So whats your point? Do you have the Holy Spirit to help you understand?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#56
Dear Marc,

Thank you for writing!

You are exactly right that verse 19 suggests that this time Jesus appeared was right before the Ascension. And this is exactly why I said that Mark's account is misleading. You yourself have been misled into thinking that this appearance (when Jesus appeared to prove the two walkers correct) was just before the Ascension.

The problem is that as Luke 24 said, this particular appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the Resurrection:
24:13 "that same day" as the empty tomb was found, the two apostles went to Emmaus and saw Jesus
24:33 "the same hour" as they saw Jesus, they went to tell the apostles
24:36: as they told the apostles this, Jesus showed up (to prove the two walkers correct)

As you can see, Luke 24 presents this particular appearance to the 11 as occurring on Day 1 or Day 2, and Luke 24 and Mark 16 both present this
as happening right before the Ascension, which was your own conclusion. However, Acts says that the Ascension was on Day 40. So that's why the passage leads people incorrectly.

Next, you wrote:

What you are suggesting is that in Luke 24, Jesus showed up on day 40 and told them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (Day 50).
The problem with this is that Luke 24 explains that this appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the resurrection (see Luke 24:13 and 24:33 - "same day"... the "same hour" the apostles went to tell the apostles).

Thus when Jesus shows up on Day 1 or 2 and tells them to stay in Jerusalem, it seems to go in the opposite direction of the appearances in Galilee on the mountain there and the Sea of Tiberias.


I agree with you here that you have found the only consisten explanation:


Nonetheless, the problem is not that one could think of a way to harmonize them, but rather that the two accounts go in different directions, since Mark ends on that note. If I told you that "Two girls saw a strange man in the woods who gave them a message to tell their family, and the girls were scared so they did not tell anyone anything", wouldn't you suppose that they didn't immediately run home to tell their family? "Did not tell anyone anything" sounds like a categorical statement.
Next, you said:

However, in that case, the polls are confirming my impression that the passage misleads people into believing that salvation is categorically solely dependent on faith. And such an idea runs up against the two issues I raised.

In fact, faith alone is not the only criterion for salvation, as it says:

Based on these verses it is not enough to say that Jesus is Lord. Even the demons repeatedly acknowledged and believed that was true. Matthew explains that people who did things like feeding the poor and visiting prisoners are those who get saved.
Likewise, believing is not enough as James says, because just believing is dead when it lacks works. Faith without works doesn't save.

So that is why belief is not categorically the only criterion like the end of Mark 16:11-20 has led some people to think.


Turning to the issue of whether signs were presented, Luke 11 says:

You responded about Mark 16's prediction of signs accompanying mission work:

However, Jesus said that He "came not to call the righteous but sinners", (Luke 5)so wouldn't that mean that His target for missionizing certainly did focus on bad and perverse people?
Second,
weren't the audience in Luke 11 of the same generation as the believers you mentioned: mid-1st century Judeans?
Third, presuming that the audience in Luke 11 was a bad generation different than the believers you mentioned, in what sense was the resurrection a sign to that bad generation such that the many other alleged public miracles in the New Testament were not? One example is the healing of a woman and sending her to the Judean priest as a "proof"/"testimony to them" (Matthew 8:4)

You concluded:

I thought you made good arguments, although you didn't discuss the issue of whether Christians drinking poison unharmed was a sign. (C in the original post) What do you think? Have believers, objectively speaking, survived poison at a higher rate than nonbelievers?
Maybe having spiritual fortitude makes one stronger against physical ailments like poison and thus it has helped them do this?

Regards.
In the Luke 24 account, the destination Emmaus is specified and Cleopas is named; while in the Mark 16 account neither the destination nor the travelers are specified. NOTHING precludes these from being separate occurances.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#57
Dear Marc,

Thank you for writing!

You are exactly right that verse 19 suggests that this time Jesus appeared was right before the Ascension. And this is exactly why I said that Mark's account is misleading. You yourself have been misled into thinking that this appearance (when Jesus appeared to prove the two walkers correct) was just before the Ascension.

The problem is that as Luke 24 said, this particular appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the Resurrection:
24:13 "that same day" as the empty tomb was found, the two apostles went to Emmaus and saw Jesus
24:33 "the same hour" as they saw Jesus, they went to tell the apostles
24:36: as they told the apostles this, Jesus showed up (to prove the two walkers correct)

As you can see, Luke 24 presents this particular appearance to the 11 as occurring on Day 1 or Day 2, and Luke 24 and Mark 16 both present this
as happening right before the Ascension, which was your own conclusion. However, Acts says that the Ascension was on Day 40. So that's why the passage leads people incorrectly.

Next, you wrote:

What you are suggesting is that in Luke 24, Jesus showed up on day 40 and told them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (Day 50).
The problem with this is that Luke 24 explains that this appearance was on Day 1 or 2 of the resurrection (see Luke 24:13 and 24:33 - "same day"... the "same hour" the apostles went to tell the apostles).

Thus when Jesus shows up on Day 1 or 2 and tells them to stay in Jerusalem, it seems to go in the opposite direction of the appearances in Galilee on the mountain there and the Sea of Tiberias.


I agree with you here that you have found the only consisten explanation:


Nonetheless, the problem is not that one could think of a way to harmonize them, but rather that the two accounts go in different directions, since Mark ends on that note. If I told you that "Two girls saw a strange man in the woods who gave them a message to tell their family, and the girls were scared so they did not tell anyone anything", wouldn't you suppose that they didn't immediately run home to tell their family? "Did not tell anyone anything" sounds like a categorical statement.
Next, you said:

However, in that case, the polls are confirming my impression that the passage misleads people into believing that salvation is categorically solely dependent on faith. And such an idea runs up against the two issues I raised.

In fact, faith alone is not the only criterion for salvation, as it says:

Based on these verses it is not enough to say that Jesus is Lord. Even the demons repeatedly acknowledged and believed that was true. Matthew explains that people who did things like feeding the poor and visiting prisoners are those who get saved.
Likewise, believing is not enough as James says, because just believing is dead when it lacks works. Faith without works doesn't save.

So that is why belief is not categorically the only criterion like the end of Mark 16:11-20 has led some people to think.


Turning to the issue of whether signs were presented, Luke 11 says:

You responded about Mark 16's prediction of signs accompanying mission work:

However, Jesus said that He "came not to call the righteous but sinners", (Luke 5)so wouldn't that mean that His target for missionizing certainly did focus on bad and perverse people?
Second,
weren't the audience in Luke 11 of the same generation as the believers you mentioned: mid-1st century Judeans?
Third, presuming that the audience in Luke 11 was a bad generation different than the believers you mentioned, in what sense was the resurrection a sign to that bad generation such that the many other alleged public miracles in the New Testament were not? One example is the healing of a woman and sending her to the Judean priest as a "proof"/"testimony to them" (Matthew 8:4)

You concluded:

I thought you made good arguments, although you didn't discuss the issue of whether Christians drinking poison unharmed was a sign. (C in the original post) What do you think? Have believers, objectively speaking, survived poison at a higher rate than nonbelievers?
Maybe having spiritual fortitude makes one stronger against physical ailments like poison and thus it has helped them do this?

Regards.
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 .They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV


Verse 17 directly says it is a sign so why should I think otherwise. The important clarification, also in verse 17, is that these signs are to follow after them that believe; NOT that they who believe should pursue the signs.

Paul's experience with the viper on Malta validates the verse. While this is the only case recorded in Scripture; it is probably not the only occurance.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
72
#58
The Bible is a faithful account of the history it describes. That doesn't mean mistakes couldn't have been made, but we know there is no deceit intended.
 
T

tanach

Guest
#59
The resurrection stories in mark are thought by most to be later additions. They have had serious consequences for people.
A number have died through drinking poison and handling snakes.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#60
The resurrection stories in mark are thought by most to be later additions. They have had serious consequences for people.
A number have died through drinking poison and handling snakes.
What accepted and reliable source are you claiming to back up this statement? This just seems to be an intentional lie to question the truth of Gods Word.