Sinless Perfectionism

[Jason0047]

In Romans 7, Paul is talking from his experience (or perspective) when he was a law abiding Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because in Romans 7:14, he says he is sold under sin and then at the end of Romans 7, when he points out Jesus Christ, Paul then states in Romans 8:2 that he is free from sin. In other words, if you believe Paul is speaking from the same perspective in both Romans 7 and 8, there would be a contradiction.

For who was Paul's audience? It was those believers who knew the law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (See Romans 7:1); For no doubt they were getting trippped up in the law of Moses by going back to it). This is the context because Paul mentions the topic of circumcision in Romans 2 (See Romans 2:25).

Side Note:

Now, do not misunderstand me. The Law or the Law of Moses is not the same thing as the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). James calls it the royal law. Paul says that what he had written should be considered as the Lord's Commandments.

The Law of Moses is of the Old Testament and it is no longer binding.
The Law of Christ is of the New Testament and it was put into effect with Christ's death.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, the gospel they believe, teach and profess will tell us who they are. Not their works or outer appearance. All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel (which is the good news of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone) are lost. No amount of their law-keeping and our feeling goody about them can make up for that.

But that is not what the Bible teaches, though. Read 1 John 1:7. It says if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. How do we know walking in the light is in reference to obeying God's Commands? Well, 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with him and wak in darkness we lie and do not the truth. These words are used almost in the same way but just slightly different in the next chapter with 1 John 2:4 when it says, "He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

In other words, you have to walk in the light of God's righteous ways in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you of all sin.

 

[Sirk]

Why did Paul struggle with this when he wrote in Romans 7:15-19

Are you more sanctified than Paul?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

it might have been Alexander the coppersmith who "did Paul a great deal of harm". I doubt Paul had a large sin issue such as lookin at porn or the like.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible says you are saved by grace or a sinner and not both. God's grace gives your spirit the ability to overcome your sin nature.

SO you are stating that you deserved God's grace because of something you do/did?

Unmerited favor[grace] means that you do not deserve what God is giving you.

yeah, so why are you teaching against unmerited favor? (sinless) it only takes 1 sin to be considered a sinner.

Like paul I am a wretched man who praises God for his salvation.

 

[Jason0047]

typical holier than thou comment.

is it better to think your better than you really are. or is it better to strive to continually better yourself?

if you have made it, there is no need to grow. you have already made it, thats the danger of perfectionism. they are blind to areas they need to grow. blind to areas they need to change, and blind to areas they need to crucify. Because they think they have already made it. if they have not. they are not livig up to their own faulty doctrine.

Well, if you know anything about the teachings of Jesus Christ that is not going to happen because we are commanded to be humble and to serve others and pray and love our enemies. Someone who is humble will always want to continually to improve even if they reached perfection. Besides, I doubt they would say they are perfect even if they were perfect. There are always hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). So they would let God be the judge of such a thing. The Bible describes a perfect man as one who does not offend in Word whereby he is able to bridle his whole body.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In Romans 7, Paul is talking from his experience (or perspective) when he was a law abiding Jew before he became a Christian. We know this because in Romans 7:14, he says he is sold under sin and then at the end of Romans 7, when he points out Jesus Christ, Paul then states in Romans 8:2 that he is free from sin. In other words, if you believe Paul is speaking from the same perspective in both Romans 7 and 8, there would be a contradiction.

wrong.Paul spoke in present tense. Not to mention, Paul could not do the things of God before he was saved and under the law. so he would have been lieing when he said he did good of any type. and prove he still did not understand the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, if you know anything about the teachings of Jesus Christ that is not going to happen because we are commanded to be humble and to serve others and pray and love our enemies. Someone who is humble will always want to continually to improve even if they reached perfection. Besides, I doubt they would say they are perfect even if they were perfect. There are always hidden and secret faults (Psalm 19:12). So they would let God be the judge of such a thing. The Bible describes a perfect man as one who can control his tongue whereby he is able to bridle his whole body.

this makes no sense.

A perfect thing does not need to be improved.. it is perfect (rolls eyes)

 

[Jason0047]

wrong.Paul spoke in present tense. Not to mention, Paul could not do the things of God before he was saved and under the law. so he would have been lieing when he said he did good of any type. and prove he still did not understand the law.

First, what you wrote doesn't make any sense. Please clarify what you mean. Second, how do you explain Romans 7:14 when Paul says he is sold under sin and then in Romans 8:2 he says he is set free from sin? Does Paul have a dual personality?

 

[Jason0047]

this makes no sense.

A perfect thing does not need to be improved.. it is perfect (rolls eyes)

No, the Lord is our judge. He will decide what type of rewards believer's will get and the type of faithfulness they had.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, the Lord is our judge. He will decide what type of rewards believer's will get and the type of faithfulness they had.

what does that have to do with being perfect? talk about a strawman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, what you wrote doesn't make any sense. Please clarify what you mean. Second, how do you explain Romans 7:14 when Paul says he is sold under sin and then in Romans 8:2 he says he is set free from sin? Does Paul have a dual personality?

does not make sense maybe because you have not studied romans 7 with an open mind.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

A man can not will to do good. nor can he hate sin, he loves sin (he may nnot love all sin, but he loves sin, it is his nature)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Not possible pre salvation. You can not delight in what you do not understand, the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his


If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Present tense, he is speaking of right now. not back then.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

and again, present tense, Now how can Paul thank God if he is talking about before when he rejected Christ and was at the time killing people for following Christ. finally. Paul sees two laws. pre-salvation paul only saw 1 law (the law of moses) he could not see the law of God. which jesus preached.

 

[Jason0047]

So..if the guy comes back later and admits his sin of drinking again, what are you going to do? Declare him an unbeliever and kick his backside out? And say God bless you as he's flying out the door...

No. Why would you ever think I would do that?

However, you are missing the point. An alcoholic who desires to be free from his addiction is not going to stay hooked to his addiction for the rest of his life. That's kind of the point. A believer does not stay addicted to their sin the rest of their life. They will overcome it. For sin shall not have dominion over them. For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

This is another danger of sinless perfectionism. It basically just causes phoniness in the membership, if you could find a sinless perfectionist church...people hide their sins rather than seeking counseling because they know they will find nothing but condemnation from their hypocritical membership.

This is making the assumption that your world view is true. However, it is not the case according to the Bible and how the real world operates. Actually the church that believes they can sin and still be saved would be hypocritical because they are preaching from the Bible that has many commands in it for them to do and yet they are not obeying them. In other words, the Word says one thing and yet they are doing something completely the opposite (Which is wrong).

By the way, how do you explain this verse if you deny that believers can sin?

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

In the King James, James 5:16 says "fautls" and not sins. This would be sins not leading unto death. It would be hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. We know that this is the case because James 5:19-20 mentions how if a believer converts a back slidden saint back to the faith, they would have in effect helped to save their soul and covered their sins. So James 5:16 is talking about the sins that do not lead unto death and James 5:19-20 is talking about sins that did lead unto death but they were repented of. Also see 1 John 5:16-18.

 

[Hepzibah]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Both interpretations of Romans 7 which have been put forth are wrong, though the latter one is a nearer one than Jason's, in this chapter (but not the surrounding ones) as there is no conflict going on in the unsaved man, he is quite happy with his state and does not struggle with sin. Paul as a Jew said he kept the law perfectly in other places.

The truth is that it is a believer who has come to a position where he has been convicted of his failures as a believer and comes to the crisis before entire sanctification (Romans 8). Some do not get to that state however and settle down in their 'lees'

 

[royalscot]

What context? Can you show it to us? Why all the mystery and vague questions? Tell it to me straight. Why do you think a believer can sin and still be saved? How on Earth do you think that is not evil? Why do you think God who is Holy and good would allow His people to sin a little on the side and be saved?

did you answer question 1.
or do you want a recap. to what that question was.
keep your verbs and nouns etc

 

[Jason0047]

what does that have to do with being perfect? talk about a strawman.

A believer does not judge their walk of whether they are perfect or not before the Lord because they may not be aware of their hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12).

 

[Sirk]

A believer does not judge their walk of whether they are perfect or not before the Lord because they may not be aware of their hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12).

But faults aren't sin right? Two different things in the gospel according to Jason.

 

[sparkman]

Here's another good meme..since many sinless perfectionists are de facto Pelagians.

 

[Jason0047]

does not make sense maybe because you have not studied romans 7 with an open mind.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

Not true, there are Roman Catholics and many other false religions who seek to follow a works based system of doing right things for God. They want to do good but they cannot do it completely. Catholics used to whip and beat themselves so as to help them to obey God's laws.

A man can not will to do good. nor can he hate sin, he loves sin (he may nnot love all sin, but he loves sin, it is his nature)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Many false religions that claim to follow the BIble or Biblical cults takes delight in God's law in their inner being. They are proud with themselves for obeying certain laws of God.

Not possible pre salvation. You can not delight in what you do not understand, the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his

False religionists who believe in God still have a carnal mind and do not have the mind of Christ. For verse 16 is in context to verse 14 in 1 Corinthians chapter 2.

If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Present tense, he is speaking of right now. not back then.

[SUP]This is not the first time Paul does not talk from his present experience.

[/SUP]But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (Galatians 2:17-18).
[SUP]

21

[/SUP]

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

and again, present tense, Now how can Paul thank God if he is talking about before when he rejected Christ and was at the time killing people for following Christ. finally. Paul sees two laws. pre-salvation paul only saw 1 law (the law of moses) he could not see the law of God. which jesus preached.

No, Paul did not see himself as a bad guy. He seen himself as a man of God who obeyed the law as a Jew.

 

[sparkman]

So, in your worldview, you think that there are sins that doom a person eternally and they aren't going to be able to come back from them? Is that your "sins unto death"?

If so, why does I John 1:8-9 say that we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness?

By the way, I know people with OCD who came into contact with professing believers talking about the unforgiveable sin and they could not get it out of their heads. It's really sad.

It's notable that the unforgivable sin was in the context of unbelieving Pharisees and not believers. They sought to discredit the works of Christ and to attribute them to the devil knowingly. Yet professing believers continue to try to apply the unforgiveable sin to believers.

By the way do you belong to a local fellowship where you are held accountable to church leadership? If not, you're in disobedience.

No. Why would you ever think I would do that?

However, you are missing the point. An alcoholic who desires to be free from his addiction is not going to stay hooked to his addiction for the rest of his life. That's kind of the point. A believer does not stay addicted to their sin the rest of their life. They will overcome it. For sin shall not have dominion over them. For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).



This is making the assumption that your world view is true. However, it is not the case according to the Bible and how the real world operates. Actually the church that believes they can sin and still be saved would be hypocritical because they are preaching from the Bible that has many commands in it for them to do and yet they are not obeying them. In other words, the Word says one thing and yet they are doing something completely the opposite (Which is wrong).



In the King James, James 5:16 says "fautls" and not sins. This would be sins not leading unto death. It would be hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. We know that this is the case because James 5:19-20 mentions how if a believer converts a back slidden saint back to the faith, they would have in effect helped to save their soul and covered their sins. So James 5:16 is talking about the sins that do not lead unto death and James 5:19-20 is talking about sins that did lead unto death but they were repented of. Also see 1 John 5:16-18.

 

[Jason0047]

But faults aren't sin right? Two different things in the gospel according to Jason.

I distinguised that they were faults (versus sins) because it is not suggesting it is the traditional sin that leads unto death.