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The Role of the Woman
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Here's a test to see if you are a feminist:
Do you like driving?
Do you like voting?
Do you want your husband not to rape you?
Do you want the right to own property or to have privacy of your own medical records?
If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, then congratulations! You're a feminist.
Misty,
By that definition, most if not all true believers (of both genders) are or ought to be feminists.
Obviously some people have a somewhat different understanding of feminism.
Whoa!
I see several people trying to push Mary into a label she feels doesn't fit.
Abusive relationships are most unlikely to occur when a woman prayerfully seeks God's council on who to marry.
Defining feminism as Misty defined it should make us all feminists; but we all know that does not truly define the movement as most of us see it.
I believe that If Mary were asked about these same issues without having to wear a label she disagrees with; she would likely give different responses.
Lets play fair if you want to play this game.
The point you are missing is that if one prayerfully seeks the Lord's counsel in choosing a spouse; he/she is almost certain to find one of the truly saintly men.
Zoli,
I think Mary relies on the premise that if she prayerfully seeksthe Lord's guidance in choosing a spouse, she will NOT wind up in an abusive relationship.
I share your abhorrence of abusive relationships! I believe that if you ask any abused wife whether she sought the Lord's counsel before entering the relationship, she will admit that she did not.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Right man, right woman. I agree Marc. If it is the Lords will for one to be married, The lord will provide the right man for a woman or a right woman for the man.
The key for us though is bible doctrine and His word. If we are equipped with His doctrines, the wrong ones won't fool us.
Hi Marc
I know from some groups I belong to some women who are very religious, who pray...I dunno I guess im saying women who you would approve of their approach to marriage. The problem is the person they thought they were marrying was wayyyyyyyyyy different. You can guess how the story ends.
S
Sirk
Guest
The two hardest things to do in an intimate relationship are to ask directly for what you want and to refuse requests. Men who do not know how to do these two things, demand and order what they want and what they don't want. Relationships are risky and men are afraid to be transparent because many believe that having and showing feelings means that you are weak, when the opposite is true....A real man is in touch, understands, directs, reflects, communicates and knows how to process his personal pain and emotions.
Not only that.....but a real man knows how to become a siphon for his wifes heart and to help her chase after her own pain. Think about how a siphon works......you gotta get the flow going. You don't do it by blowing hard. You do it by receiving in kindness.
Not only that.....but a real man knows how to become a siphon for his wifes heart and to help her chase after her own pain. Think about how a siphon works......you gotta get the flow going. You don't do it by blowing hard. You do it by receiving in kindness.
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Ive no idea what two wrongs u mean or if your just simply saying that your right n I'm wrong. Ive scrolled down a bit now n see you answered again so...better job in the next answer
Zoli,
I know many people (of both genders) who are Godly and have an active prayer life; who do not specifically ask the Lord's guidance and approval when choosing a spouse.
Too often believers, with an active walk with the Lord, forget to ask Him for specific guidance in decisions which they think they can make on their own.
I do not believe that believers who pray for specific guidance in choosing a spouse or in anything else are led into a bad relationship.
P
psychomom
Guest
i hope you'll tolerate this final post of mine in this thread, and forgive me.
i don't understand how or why God's people would so limit themselves as to be advocates for women's rights.
i'm not saying don't advocate for them, but what about children?
what about boys and men in terrible situations?
in the west our view is men have it pretty easy, and there's truth to that for some.
but when did the Bride of Christ decide to confine herself to defending adult females?
shouldn't the Church concern herself with human rights as a whole?
the world over?
thanks for listening.
i don't understand how or why God's people would so limit themselves as to be advocates for women's rights.
i'm not saying don't advocate for them, but what about children?
what about boys and men in terrible situations?
in the west our view is men have it pretty easy, and there's truth to that for some.
but when did the Bride of Christ decide to confine herself to defending adult females?
shouldn't the Church concern herself with human rights as a whole?
the world over?
thanks for listening.
In a way feminism benefits both sexes. Part of feminism is acknowledging that men have feelings too and giving them the space and support they need to express those feelings. Men do have it hard but in a different way. Society's like "no feelings for you men" so a lot of men wind up with a lot of muck guck and yuck building up in their hears because "men don't cry." Well I say only the strong men cry.
It's not saying men HAVE to be weak or that women HAVE to be macho. It's basically allowing both genders the freedom to be who they are (in Christ IMO) without fear of judgement or ridicule.
It's not saying men HAVE to be weak or that women HAVE to be macho. It's basically allowing both genders the freedom to be who they are (in Christ IMO) without fear of judgement or ridicule.
Angela,
I do NOT agree with predestinarian Baptist Churches; but I don't think they can truly be regarded as cults.
Many of us copy and paste things that we are in substantial agreement with and when, as in this case, credit and proper attribution are given; there is no reasonable objection to the practice.
While I do NOT fully subscribe to the OP position, I can see it as both representing Mary's personal views, and as a reasonable but not the only reasonable inference of what the scripture actually says.
You certainly are at liberty to be a feminist. I don't think that even you believe that you are at liberty to impose your feminist outlook on Mary.
Even someone like me, a person in sympathy with most of the goals of feminism, can applaud Mary's unjaded reliance on her understanding of Scripture, without necessarily agreeing with all her views.
You seem far more tolerant of people who disagree with you on other issues.
I can understand that people have emotional hot spots; but that doesn't justify treating a sincere young lady unkindly.
I am not faulting your position; but I ask you to rethink your response to hers.
That "unjaded" viewpoint is naivete. While it looks pretty in fairy tales, it sets women up for some really bad treatment. I hope she is lucky enough to find a good guy, but there is no way to ensure that--not the purity culture, not the "List of Godly Traits in a Spouse," not prayer, not meeting him in church.
I believed that. Many other good women have believed that. We got screwed over. Then when we go public with our stories, we are told to be quiet "for the cause of Christ." We are called feminists when we point out the dangers of patriarchy, even when it calls itself "complementarianism." We were created to be ezers: fellow warriors. Reducing us down to cute little helpers belittles the image of God that we are to portray and sets us up for abuse.
Misty,
IMO, men who abuse women are detestable! Do you personally know of any abused wife who prayerfully asked the Lord to guide and approve her choice before entering the relationship? IMO, such a condition is impossible.
I don't believe that ANYONE who prayerfully seeks the Lord's guidance in choosing a spouse will end up in a bad relationship.
S
Sirk
Guest
Marc...the truth is that guys are very good at telling potential mates exactly what they want to hear....and they even believe it themselves and they want all the things they say. Then the reality of the hard work it takes to to have a good marriage sets in.....life happens, and the next thing it's a one down one up relationship and people are getting hurt. This is what unprocessed hurts do to a marriage. IMO......it's all about processing pain and emptying the wheelbarrow of sorrow that many carry around without knowing about it.... and marriage will open that pandoras box every single time......and If God ain't truly in the picture it is always a train wreck.
Marc, the more I think about this OP, and this thread, the more vehement I become about how wrong it is to copy and paste, to present Scriptures out of context, and how wrong some of the assumptions are especially by the men on this thread.
Let's see - if you prayed before you got married, and God said yes, then you will have a good marriage. I know women who prayed and had others pray and thought God said yes, and then ended up in a nightmare marriage with a selfish, mama's boy who would not lift a finger, and never put his wife first once, despite his supposed commitment to Christ. We won't even get into the abuse some of them have suffered at the hands of pastors, deacons and men who are supposed to be servants of God.
Then there is that infamous passage from Ephesians 5. Somehow, everyone wants to start the passage at Eph. 5:22. But Eph 5:21 is part of Paul's train of thought.
" submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ," Eph. 5:21
The rest of the Ephesians 5 passage is very relevant, as a household code in Greece or Rome, to teach men to treat their wives in a totally different way than that culture. The passage is written to men. Oh yes, the earliest manuscripts don't even have the word "submit" in Eph. 5:22, by the way.
I also hurt for the women who are single, who are being told the only way they will fulfill their "role" is to be married! It demotes them to something less than married women, which is contrary to Scripture. Paul tells people if they are able, it is better to be single!
" But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I." 1 Cor 7:8
As for those who were in marriages, which they prayed about, and ended up getting abused, then living in poverty when they sought to get out, like Misty testified to, I have heard this story over and over again.
I am blessed to have a wonderful husband, but my eyes are open to the truth that a Christian marriage needs to be accountable to God by both spouses. We each stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to answer for ourselves. And I personally don't think a good answer is "Well, my husband made me do it!" It is demeaning to women to suggest that they are accountable to a husband, rather than to God.
Jesus Christ is the one who has been given authority. Because of the bad translation of 1 Tim. 2:12, many men have somehow come to think that they have authority, and a woman is to be under them.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek
The key word here is αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. It is an infinitive, which in the case of the ESV and most translations, means that you actually have to add a verb, such as "usurp" in the KJV or "exercise" in the ESV. The word "authentein" is a verb, whereas "authority" is a noun. In fact, the word exousia ἐξουσία, is the word for authority, and is found in such places as Matt 28:18 where Jesus tells his disciples that he has been given ALL authority.
"And Jesus came and said to them,“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18
In fact, "authentein", used in the 1 Tim. 2:12 passage is a hapax legomena. That means that it is only used once in the Bible. Therefore, we have to look to contemporaneous sources to find a definition of this verb. There are actually over 50 different words used in extra biblical sources when translating this word. But the one that comes up the most, is "to dominate." Therefore, a women is not to "dominate." Given the culture in Ephesus, with the temple of Artemis, the kinds of rites and rituals and the dominance of women, Paul had a definite reason to write this phrase. He did not want the former priestesses of Artemis to be dominating their husbands. A far cry from the authority of men over women for all times. Or even husbands over their wives!
In the garden of Eden, there were no roles. As believers, we are not instructed to live out the Fall, with its roles and consquences of sin, daily in our marriages. Instead, we are to support and help one another. Eve was not a "Helpmeet" or "helper" as many translations say. Instead, God created her to be an equal partner, an "ezer" who was a warrior. God did not create a weak and submissive woman that Adam would have to take care of for the rest of his life. God created a woman who was his equal, his partner and someone who could help him fight in the battles of life. Yes, even in the Garden of Eden.
I have taken the time to study this extensively in the original languages. God's plan is NOT for a woman to be a door mat, or for the man to have authority over her. Only Jesus has that authority! As for submission, Eph. 5:21 says it all - we are to submit to each other!
Let's see - if you prayed before you got married, and God said yes, then you will have a good marriage. I know women who prayed and had others pray and thought God said yes, and then ended up in a nightmare marriage with a selfish, mama's boy who would not lift a finger, and never put his wife first once, despite his supposed commitment to Christ. We won't even get into the abuse some of them have suffered at the hands of pastors, deacons and men who are supposed to be servants of God.
Then there is that infamous passage from Ephesians 5. Somehow, everyone wants to start the passage at Eph. 5:22. But Eph 5:21 is part of Paul's train of thought.
" submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ," Eph. 5:21
The rest of the Ephesians 5 passage is very relevant, as a household code in Greece or Rome, to teach men to treat their wives in a totally different way than that culture. The passage is written to men. Oh yes, the earliest manuscripts don't even have the word "submit" in Eph. 5:22, by the way.
I also hurt for the women who are single, who are being told the only way they will fulfill their "role" is to be married! It demotes them to something less than married women, which is contrary to Scripture. Paul tells people if they are able, it is better to be single!
" But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I." 1 Cor 7:8
As for those who were in marriages, which they prayed about, and ended up getting abused, then living in poverty when they sought to get out, like Misty testified to, I have heard this story over and over again.
I am blessed to have a wonderful husband, but my eyes are open to the truth that a Christian marriage needs to be accountable to God by both spouses. We each stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to answer for ourselves. And I personally don't think a good answer is "Well, my husband made me do it!" It is demeaning to women to suggest that they are accountable to a husband, rather than to God.
Jesus Christ is the one who has been given authority. Because of the bad translation of 1 Tim. 2:12, many men have somehow come to think that they have authority, and a woman is to be under them.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek
The key word here is αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. It is an infinitive, which in the case of the ESV and most translations, means that you actually have to add a verb, such as "usurp" in the KJV or "exercise" in the ESV. The word "authentein" is a verb, whereas "authority" is a noun. In fact, the word exousia ἐξουσία, is the word for authority, and is found in such places as Matt 28:18 where Jesus tells his disciples that he has been given ALL authority.
"And Jesus came and said to them,“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18
In fact, "authentein", used in the 1 Tim. 2:12 passage is a hapax legomena. That means that it is only used once in the Bible. Therefore, we have to look to contemporaneous sources to find a definition of this verb. There are actually over 50 different words used in extra biblical sources when translating this word. But the one that comes up the most, is "to dominate." Therefore, a women is not to "dominate." Given the culture in Ephesus, with the temple of Artemis, the kinds of rites and rituals and the dominance of women, Paul had a definite reason to write this phrase. He did not want the former priestesses of Artemis to be dominating their husbands. A far cry from the authority of men over women for all times. Or even husbands over their wives!
In the garden of Eden, there were no roles. As believers, we are not instructed to live out the Fall, with its roles and consquences of sin, daily in our marriages. Instead, we are to support and help one another. Eve was not a "Helpmeet" or "helper" as many translations say. Instead, God created her to be an equal partner, an "ezer" who was a warrior. God did not create a weak and submissive woman that Adam would have to take care of for the rest of his life. God created a woman who was his equal, his partner and someone who could help him fight in the battles of life. Yes, even in the Garden of Eden.
I have taken the time to study this extensively in the original languages. God's plan is NOT for a woman to be a door mat, or for the man to have authority over her. Only Jesus has that authority! As for submission, Eph. 5:21 says it all - we are to submit to each other!
Zoi,
I really understand your point of view. There are many abusive people in the world; and I think they are contemptible regardless of gender.
I believe that a person who prayerfully asks the Lord to guide and approve his/her choice of marriage partner; they will NOT wind up in an abusive relationship.
I agree fully that marriage should indeed be an equal partnership. I believe that God's plan for male leadership is ONLY about who takes the heat when mistakes are made.
It should have NOTHING to do with domination
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