Sinless Perfectionism

[Joshua_Generation]

then why are you preaching we should be sinless? Or have you not heard what the topic of discussion is?

Why do I need to look it up? I know what it means, I need it every day, if not for charis, I would be doomed forever, we all would.

The only person stating I am preaching we should be sinless is you. I have never stated or implied that.

Maybe we are seeing terms differently, so let me back up and ask.

What is grace to you?

I believe Grace is God's undeserved favor. It is something that God gives us or does for us or enables us to do that we did not in any way earn, or deserve, or merit.

Is this what you believe Grace is?

I also need Grace[favor and ability] everyday.

Grace gives you God's power and ability to change in your spirit, what you cannot change in your flesh, in your own understanding or under the law.

You claim and state that we are powerless over sin many times in this thread, yet God's grace says you can, because it is not your power or your ability, It is God's. That is the true meaning of grace, God's ability and power working in you to overcome.

I will never be perfect, but friend, I have overcome certain SINS and laid them Aside as Heb 12 tells me to, because I lean on God's grace to overcome, not just maintain until Jesus returns.

This is why I told you and others, you cannot be a sinner saved by grace.

Either you are saved by grace or a sinner, you cannot be both.

The Bible makes it very clear God's Grace overcomes SIN. God has given you his grace, so by his grace you should overcome SIN.

 

[dcontroversal]

your wrong and right at the same time.

your wrong in that romans 7 is pre salvation. your right as in they need to go together.

Romans 7 tells us our problem as a christian (the war within) there was never a war before a person came to Christ so it could not be pre-salvation. You all can claim it till your blue in the face. but it does not fit.

Romans 8 tells us how to OVERCOME the problem!

Amen to that.....and I agree fully with this premise.......!

 

[PeterJens]

A sinner save by grace.

Words have meanings, but unfortunately different people apply different meanings to the same word.

A sinner is someone who has sinned. Now if one sin done anywhere in you whole life defines you are sinner, then everyone is a sinner, whether believer or not.

Using the term sinner is used to imply we fail and are not worthy of being saved.
Grace is the unmerited gift of God through Jesus and his sacrifice.

So all christians are sinners saved by grace.

Now you can redefine what the sentence means, but this is the cultural context of the phrase, so it is odd when someone wants to suggest it is wrong.

Can we walk in perfection? Well funnily you would never know until you can say from this time to this time I did not sin.
If that is you measure of what perfection is and you can define what is sin over that point of time and know you did not commit anything, you could say you are perfect.

Paul appears to be arguing if we are free from the law then nothing is sinful, because there is no punishment for failure.
The problem I have with this idea, is it seems to me to be saying sin is only sin because a law calls it such, rather sin is actually a destructive act that is un-justified. The problem ofcourse is our only ultimate reference point for justification is the Lord, so it is finally what the Lord declares as sin.

So for some they can walk in perfection, because they define perfection as walking in grace. But another strand of the argument is walking in the spirit means you do the right things, irrespective of the law because you are walking in love.

But if you fail once, does that mean perfection has failed or you have just stumbled. I think until we meet the Lord and everything is clear, it will be a mystery. For me I am trying to walk in love and grace, and not in the flesh.
Whether I obtain perfection I will only know on meeting the Lord, but I hope I learn to please Him.

 

[Jeff_56]

several people in the new testament knew while they were very much alive that they were
walking perfectly in harmony with jesus, walking and living every day, every moment in spirit and in truth,
as jesus told the woman at the well......
today,
not very many people know this, because so few are doing what the people in the new testament did.

start with taking care of the poor, generously and diligently as yahweh provides to do....

if this isn't done, then nothing else matters... (there's enough references in OT and in NT that this ought to be clear to everyone who ........

oh oh.... i was going to continue > everyone who reads and understands the Scripture....
but then
GOD ALMIGHTY, THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING and OF ALL LIFE
reminded me
that the man in the chariot did not understand what he was reading....
(and he was reading THE ORIGINAL WORD of YAHWEH written in a language HE READ and understood !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

so there IS a GREAT DIFFICULTY here and now (and for those who are alive now and for the last 175 years or so.... give or take a couple grand ! haha)....

settle down. if the man in the chariot did not understand what he was reading,
what makes anyone today think that they can understand it ? (and most here haven't even EVER read what he was reading in SCRIPTURE)......


and if people cannot even understand what they haven't even ever read, or what they have read,

how then
could anyone
anywhere here or there or anywhere, BE PERFECT ?????

again>>

if the man in the chariot did not understand what he was reading, what makes anyone today think that they can understand it ?

hint: there is only one true and perfect and holy and right with Scripture answer to this question.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe we are approaching this problem from the wrong point of view.
A child learns to walk and takes great joy in walking. Do you say that child is walking perfectly, or just walking?
Do you say that child always could walk and never stumbles? That would be a lie.

So what you can say is that child is walking today and has walked well most of their lives. But you would never use the word perfection or even stumbling. You would say the person desires to walk and is moving on, and that is the most important thing.

It seems people want to say, if you admit you stumble then it is like you never started walking at all, or if you manage to walk well then you will never stumble, which both are not true. The test appears to be do you have a loving relationship with the Lord and are you aiming to walk well. The rest is up to the Lord, but the whole basis of Jesus's love, is he is working with us to overcome our weaknesses, and we need to trust Him. Learning to walk takes time, and it is easy to loose ones way in the struggle, but to deny the struggle is to deny change, and the need to be remade or transformed over time.

To say problems make the walk impossible is to loose sight of the gift of God in Christ, which is grace working through faith.

Jesus put it like this,
"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’" Luke 14:28-30

Theology is just ideas, but it puts us into a context and understanding of how to approach the Lord and how he works in us.
We are called to "follow".

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30

Learn from me. - This is not be zapped by the Holy Spirit, go to lots of praise meetings and everything will become rosy.
To be yoked to another, is the linking of an experienced animal, horse, ox to an inexperienced one so the inexperienced one can learn how to work, how to pull a load and where to go and how to react to instruction. It takes time and mistakes will happen. But if you remain yoked you are still walking. If you break the yoke and walk away, you have broken the relationship and have left the faith.

For some this can mean months, years away from the Lord, hurt, in rebellion, alone and empty. To frame things in terms of saved - unsaved does not appear healthy, but walking or abandoned, makes more sense.

 

[royalscot]

The only person stating I am preaching we should be sinless is you. I have never stated or implied that.

Maybe we are seeing terms differently, so let me back up and ask.

What is grace to you?

I believe Grace is God's undeserved favor. It is something that God gives us or does for us or enables us to do that we did not in any way earn, or deserve, or merit.

Is this what you believe Grace is?

I also need Grace[favor and ability] everyday.

Grace gives you God's power and ability to change in your spirit, what you cannot change in your flesh, in your own understanding or under the law.

You claim and state that we are powerless over sin many times in this thread, yet God's grace says you can, because it is not your power or your ability, It is God's. That is the true meaning of grace, God's ability and power working in you to overcome.

I will never be perfect, but friend, I have overcome certain SINS and laid them Aside as Heb 12 tells me to, because I lean on God's grace to overcome, not just maintain until Jesus returns.

This is why I told you and others, you cannot be a sinner saved by grace.

Either you are saved by grace or a sinner, you cannot be both.

The Bible makes it very clear God's Grace overcomes SIN. God has given you his grace, so by his grace you should overcome SIN.

no offence bro.

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 5

so the question is ask, whos righteousness gave us the correct standing to be excepted by god. (john 3.16)


sin and grace are listed here as two different things. (the difference between new and old covenants)

sin reigns in death. as the ruler of sin. what sin were you forgiven or believed in a saviour to by pass our sins.
(so in simple term why are your returning to law, for justification, when grace and believing in jesus christ, already justified you before god.)

spiritual gift like, love, peace,etc over come our personal vision, on look at sin in other, only because these gifts come to promote and extent the love god has for all, and his mercy is for all men.
if god was intrested to promote law, again, there would have been, no need to send jesus christ, (Isaiah 49:6)

grace also might rein through righteousness. whos rightiousness dos it reign in.

1 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.gal 2

again it seem, returning to law for justification, is what paul warns in

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.Galatians 5

 

[Joshua_Generation]

no offence bro.

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 5

so the question is ask, whos righteousness gave us the correct standing to be excepted by god. (john 3.16)


sin and grace are listed here as two different things. (the difference between new and old covenants)

sin reigns in death. as the ruler of sin. what sin were you forgiven or believed in a saviour to by pass our sins.
(so in simple term why are your returning to law, for justification, when grace and believing in jesus christ, already justified you before god.)

spiritual gift like, love, peace,etc over come our personal vision, on look at sin in other, only because these gifts come to promote and extent the love god has for all, and his mercy is for all men.
if god was intrested to promote law, again, there would have been, no need to send jesus christ, (Isaiah 49:6)

grace also might rein through righteousness. whos rightiousness dos it reign in.

1 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.gal 2

again it seem, returning to law for justification, is what paul warns in

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.Galatians 5

I am not returning to the Law.

I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. My righteousness which is position and not perfromance, is through Jesus CHrist and his shed blood, that I received through faith, by God's grace.

God's grace is not just no his favor, but also his ability to empower my spirit to do, what my flesh cannot. Grace is not mercy or forgiveness either.

I have no idea where you come up with I am returning to the Law. Jesus took my sins, past, present and future.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The only person stating I am preaching we should be sinless is you. I have never stated or implied that.

lol. You do not read very well. Look at the NAME of the thread. it is what we are discussing. You jumped into the discussion on their side. so how else should I interpret what you say? Maybe you need to rethink your position, and start going against those who do teach perfection. and stop railing on me, is is using my argument (which you are aposing) against those who do.

Maybe we are seeing terms differently, so let me back up and ask.

What is grace to you?

I believe Grace is God's undeserved favor. It is something that God gives us or does for us or enables us to do that we did not in any way earn, or deserve, or merit.

Is this what you believe Grace is?

That is what grace is, Something freely given, not deserved.

I also need Grace[favor and ability] everyday.

Grace gives you God's power and ability to change in your spirit, what you cannot change in your flesh, in your own understanding or under the law.

You claim and state that we are powerless over sin many times in this thread, yet God's grace says you can, because it is not your power or your ability, It is God's. That is the true meaning of grace, God's ability and power working in you to overcome.

I will never be perfect, but friend, I have overcome certain SINS and laid them Aside as Heb 12 tells me to, because I lean on God's grace to overcome, not just maintain until Jesus returns.

Saying one is powerless over sin in that they will never be sinless (my argument) and saying one can overcome certain sin issues in their life with the power of God are two different arguments.

You are misrepresenting my argument completely.

This is why I told you and others, you cannot be a sinner saved by grace.

Well you would be wrong, because if you were sinless. you would not be saved by grace. Only a sinner is in need of grace,.

Like a shirt my wife Got me says, "Not perfect. just forgiven"

Either you are saved by grace or a sinner, you cannot be both.

No. Because a sinner is one who just needs to commit one sin. Your either a sinner, or perfect. Your either a sinner saved by grace, or a sinner condemned by God.

The Bible makes it very clear God's Grace overcomes SIN. God has given you his grace, so by his grace you should overcome SIN.

Your argument makes it sound like you teach perfection (sinless) You need to change your argument, or your thinking, you say one thing, yet you teach something else.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

lol. You do not read very well. Look at the NAME of the thread. it is what we are discussing. You jumped into the discussion on their side. so how else should I interpret what you say? Maybe you need to rethink your position, and start going against those who do teach perfection. and stop railing on me, is is using my argument (which you are aposing) against those who do.



That is what grace is, Something freely given, not deserved.


Saying one is powerless over sin in that they will never be sinless (my argument) and saying one can overcome certain sin issues in their life with the power of God are two different arguments.

You are misrepresenting my argument completely.


Well you would be wrong, because if you were sinless. you would not be saved by grace. Only a sinner is in need of grace,.

Like a shirt my wife Got me says, "Not perfect. just forgiven"



No. Because a sinner is one who just needs to commit one sin. Your either a sinner, or perfect. Your either a sinner saved by grace, or a sinner condemned by God.



Your argument makes it sound like you teach perfection (sinless) You need to change your argument, or your thinking, you say one thing, yet you teach something else.

You might as well through out your Bible, because the Bible says you are not a sinner, saved by grace and never has.

Romans 6 shows you this, you gotta read the whole chapter, not just 6.23

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You might as well through out your Bible, because the Bible says you are not a sinner, saved by grace and never has.

Romans 6 shows you this, you gotta read the whole chapter, not just 6.23

so are you sinless perfect or not? Which is it?

 

[royalscot]

I am not returning to the Law.

I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. My righteousness which is position and not perfromance, is through Jesus CHrist and his shed blood, that I received through faith, by God's grace.

God's grace is not just no his favor, but also his ability to empower my spirit to do, what my flesh cannot. Grace is not mercy or forgiveness either.

I have no idea where you come up with I am returning to the Law. Jesus took my sins, past, present and future.

eternally-gratefull
answered you more in his words ,about grace, however my wording is about grace too.

yet at a guess , we both see through, what you wrote ie trying to mix law, again with grace, to be justified by god. if i am wrong, then i am sorry for my comment bro.

 

[tribesman]

Do I believe in sinless perfection? Yes. I believe in the sinless perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than that, no.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

so are you sinless perfect or not? Which is it?

What does Romans 6 tell you I am?

It tells me I am slave to righteousness, it says that I should reckon/consider myself dead to sin and alive in Christ, it says that sin does not have dominion over me, because I have grace, it says I am free from sin and enslaved to God. It says my old self was crucified with Christ and therefore my body of sin was done away with.

It says that just because I have this grace does not mean that I will sin or gives me a license to sin, it says I should thank God that I am obedient in my heart to the teaching which I am committed to.

Romans 6 says I am dead to sin and alive to God, and that my body of sin was buried with Christ and because of that I have become a slave to righteousness and not a slave to sin. It means that God has given me his grace[ability] to control those things that I cannot through my flesh, which includes SIN of any kind.

For the record, Romans 6 says this about you as well.

There are no perfect people EG, only Jesus was perfect and never sinned, but he was touched by temptation, which is not sin.

I am tempted at all times and sometimes I do sin, other times I do not.

That does not make my sinless or prefect, but it does make me free from the law of sin and death, because Sin does not rule over me.

Cute statements on t-shirts like: not perfect but forgiven, are super spiritual, but have no grounding in the word.

Romans 6 says your body of sin was crucified with Christ and buried with him and you are then raised into newness of Life.

A better and more correct t-shirt saying would be. Not perfect, but dead to sin, and alive to God.

You are stuck at the doctrine of forgiveness and mercy, which is fine. You need to understand grace, righteousness and the new creation reality of the divine nature.

Grace is not mercy or forgiveness and because you cannot see it for what it really is and does for you, you like hundreds assume it is a license to sin, and screech and moan that it is when you hear anything about grace that is not tied to mercy and forgiveness.

Grace is God's ability & favor, The Bible says Jesus was full of grace and truth. The Bible also states Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and "favor" of God.

Stop yelling sinless perfection when there is no such thing, and start understanding grace, rightoeusnes and how Jesus did things down here and you might encounter Jesus and he will break every chain, remove every scale and bring you into a level of spiritual maturity most never achieve.

The greatest lie satan has over the church right now is that you are a sinner saved by grace and that you are still a sinner, yet, that is not at all what the Bible says. Missing the mark is not being a "sinner", it means you have sinned, which I do. and that is what your semantics of traditional doctrine has blinded you to and keep you in bondage over.

 

[royalscot]

Do I believe in sinless perfection? Yes. I believe in the sinless perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Other than that, no.

i agree with you to jesus christ perfection, strange how others try to mix law and grace, and try to come up again with grace a gift, when law never saved the new covenant believer, but the saviour jesus christ did.

3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.Galatians 5

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does Romans 6 tell you I am?

It tells me I am slave to righteousness, it says that I should reckon/consider myself dead to sin and alive in Christ, it says that sin does not have dominion over me, because I have grace, it says I am free from sin and enslaved to God. It says my old self was crucified with Christ and therefore my body of sin was done away with.

It says that just because I have this grace does not mean that I will sin or gives me a license to sin, it says I should thank God that I am obedient in my heart to the teaching which I am committed to.

Romans 6 says I am dead to sin and alive to God, and that my body of sin was buried with Christ and because of that I have become a slave to righteousness and not a slave to sin. It means that God has given me his grace[ability] to control those things that I cannot through my flesh, which includes SIN of any kind.

For the record, Romans 6 says this about you as well.

There are no perfect people EG, only Jesus was perfect and never sinned, but he was touched by temptation, which is not sin.

I am tempted at all times and sometimes I do sin, other times I do not.

That does not make my sinless or prefect, but it does make me free from the law of sin and death, because Sin does not rule over me.

Cute statements on t-shirts like: not perfect but forgiven, are super spiritual, but have no grounding in the word.

Romans 6 says your body of sin was crucified with Christ and buried with him and you are then raised into newness of Life.

A better and more correct t-shirt saying would be. Not perfect, but dead to sin, and alive to God.

You are stuck at the doctrine of forgiveness and mercy, which is fine. You need to understand grace, righteousness and the new creation reality of the divine nature.

Grace is not mercy or forgiveness and because you cannot see it for what it really is and does for you, you like hundreds assume it is a license to sin, and screech and moan that it is when you hear anything about grace that is not tied to mercy and forgiveness.

Grace is God's ability & favor, The Bible says Jesus was full of grace and truth. The Bible also states Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and "favor" of God.

Stop yelling sinless perfection when there is no such thing, and start understanding grace, rightoeusnes and how Jesus did things down here and you might encounter Jesus and he will break every chain, remove every scale and bring you into a level of spiritual maturity most never achieve.

The greatest lie satan has over the church right now is that you are a sinner saved by grace and that you are still a sinner, yet, that is not at all what the Bible says. Missing the mark is not being a "sinner", it means you have sinned, which I do. and that is what your semantics of traditional doctrine has blinded you to and keep you in bondage over.

Why are you getting so upset?

You just admitted you still sin. Paul admitted he still sinned (see romans 7) That would make you (apart from grace) still a sinner would it not?

I think it is dangerous to stop realising your sin. Paul thought the same evidently, which is why he was so passionate in romans 7 and other passages of his (I am a chief sinner etc etc).

This satans lie crap is for the birds. It is my view. because I do not want to be a pharisee and think I am more righteous than I am. And I want to give God the credit not myself. thus I claim to be a sinner saved by grace (I once was a sinner and enemy of God. By His grace, I was saved from that condemnation and made a child of his. But I still sin, I am still growing, I have yet to match my condition with my position (my personal righteousness equals Christs righteousness) and thats a lie of satan?? WOW!

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Why are you getting so upset?

You just admitted you still sin. Paul admitted he still sinned (see romans 7) That would make you (apart from grace) still a sinner would it not?

I think it is dangerous to stop realising your sin. Paul thought the same evidently, which is why he was so passionate in romans 7 and other passages of his (I am a chief sinner etc etc).

This satans lie crap is for the birds. It is my view. because I do not want to be a pharisee and think I am more righteous than I am. And I want to give God the credit not myself. thus I claim to be a sinner saved by grace (I once was a sinner and enemy of God. By His grace, I was saved from that condemnation and made a child of his. But I still sin, I am still growing, I have yet to match my condition with my position (my personal righteousness equals Christs righteousness) and thats a lie of satan?? WOW!

Paul was talking about his experience pre-conversion in CH 7 as a Pharisee and under the law and telling you that you will never be made righteous through the law.

But I still sin, I am still growing, I have yet to match my condition with my position (my personal righteousness equals Christs righteousness) and thats a lie of satan?? WOW!

It is a lie from Satan and you are living that lie out, because you are entangled in works based righteousness. You state your condition must match your position. That is not found anywhere in the Bible, the bible says you were made righteous at the cross, and your righteousness matches your condition, because your condition is not a body of sin anymore, but you are a new creation, you have been freed from the body of sin and the law of sin and death.

As long as you think your condition has to match your position, you are engaged in works based righteousness and do not believe that Jesus Christ and his work is enough for you.

You are walking and living proof of 2 Peter 1.9.

BTW, since you state you are a currently a sinner, you might consider and stop praying. It is not doing you any good.

John 9.31-
[SUP]31 [/SUP]We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul was talking about his experience pre-conversion in CH 7 as a Pharisee and under the law and telling you that you will never be made righteous through the law.

Now this is a lie from satan, Paul was not talking about pre-conversion. and this has already been proven.

I was made righteous through christ, but not my righteousness, but Christ righteousness in and through me.

It is a lie from Satan and you are living that lie out, because you are entangled in works based righteousness.

Ok, we need to stop right here. How am I entangled in a works based righteousness? This is crazy talk. Nothing I have said would even come close to saying this. So can you explain this to me? How can me saying I am not a perfect person. yet I am still saved by grace serving a works based gospel? When it would serve the apposite of a works based gospel.

You evidently are not listening to me if you think this. so please explain how you hear me teaching works?

You state your condition must match your position.

Can you show me where I posted the word must? Again, you are not listening to what I am saying.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Now this is a lie from satan, Paul was not talking about pre-conversion. and this has already been proven.

I was made righteous through christ, but not my righteousness, but Christ righteousness in and through me.






Ok, we need to stop right here. How am I entangled in a works based righteousness? This is crazy talk. Nothing I have said would even come close to saying this. So can you explain this to me? How can me saying I am not a perfect person. yet I am still saved by grace serving a works based gospel? When it would serve the apposite of a works based gospel.

You evidently are not listening to me if you think this. so please explain how you hear me teaching works?



Can you show me where I posted the word must? Again, you are not listening to what I am saying.

The fact you refute me and not address Romans 6 tells me all I need to know.

Carry on, because all is well with you right?

How good is good enough for you?

 

[royalscot]

The fact you refute me and not address Romans 6 tells me all I need to know.

Carry on, because all is well with you right?

How good is good enough for you?

when is good enough for you or me measured by our measuring stick.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fact you refute me and not address Romans 6 tells me all I need to know.

Carry on, because all is well with you right?

How good is good enough for you?

the fact you continue to say I teach law is all I need to know. you refuse to actually listen to a word I say, because I am not teaching law. or sinless perfection. I teach that that is impossible.

How good is good enough? You will never make it, I will never make it, no one alive will ever make it, only one man ever made it, and that is christ.

but you do not want to find out what I am saying, so you will probably say I did not even say this.