The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

sparkman · Jun 3, 2015

Paul speaks very clearly in regards to these things here as well in Galatians. Note that he calls the Old Covenant a yoke of slavery. IF YOU THINK THAT I AM TAKING THIS OUT OF CONTEXT READ THE WHOLE BOOK.

To be honest, at this point I don't even think you're a believer due to your insistence on keeping the law. Read the whole book of Galatians. Read this section. It says you are severed from Christ. That means you aren't even part of the body of Christ if you make such claims about keeping the law. And neither are those guys at 119ministries if they insist you must keep the Law. They are wolves. While calling others wolves, they are the wolves.

5 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[SUP][a][/SUP] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

sparkman · Jun 3, 2015

To clarify the above, when I say "the law" I mean the Old Covenant.

sparkman · Jun 3, 2015

By the way, before you bet your eternal life on those guys at 119ministries, do take the time to ask them their credentials for understanding the Hebrew and Greek underlying the texts.

Ask them how much formal training they have had in Hebrew and Greek. Herbert Armstrong took it upon himself to correct orthodox Christianity with linguistic assertions, but the man didn't have a single year of Hebrew or Greek training. I doubt these guys do either. They are probably armed with their Strong's Concordance and that's it. There are many considerations with regards to translations that need to be understood before criticizing the work of legitimate translators who have spent their lives studying the languages.

My guess is they are self trained if they have any training at all. I know guys with 4 years of Greek training that aren't bold enough to criticize translators who have spent their lives studying the language.

JGIG · Jun 4, 2015

Eliwood said:

Yet the Law you claim to enjoy keeping requires animal sacrifices (Heb. 10:8).

King Solomon offered sacrifices without a temple . . . (see 1 Kings 2). I noticed that you haven't responded to that passage.

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (from Heb. 10)

Christ isn't just a 'spiritual' High Priest. He is the Priest of the New Covenant appointed by God (by an oath from God) - and His High Priesthood is FOREVER:

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

17 For it is declared:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)

Nope, no spiritualization of the priesthood there.

Three very real priesthoods are mentioned there:

Melchizedek - To whom Abraham offered tithes
The Levitical priesthood - established by the Law (Heb. 7:11)
The Forever Priesthood - established by an oath from God, making Jesus the Guarantor of the New Covenant

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

If those in Christ have been perfected by a single sacrifice, why would there need to be more sacrifices? Was the Work of Christ not enough?

John the Baptist said, "Behold - The Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world!" and 1 John 2 says, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If you want to say there are sacrifices for other things, like thank offerings and purifications, consider the following:

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (from Heb. 1)

15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. (from Heb. 13)

The letter to the Hebrews settles all of these questions quite well

.

-JGIG

fredjames · Jun 4, 2015

Eliwood said:

All creation who went on their own ways and that way failed and was hopeless and helpless in their own doing, example the 'prodigal son', couldn't live under the 'rule' of his father, wanted his way and freedom to do what was pleasing to the 'sight'. When all plans and dreams 'crumbled' and all turned against him, he runs back to the father once again, realizing the father is the true source of all tings sufficiently. So did the father's rule failed or the sons themselves fail to live according to them and faced all kind of trouble from their evil beguiled adversary living apart from them?

Even the father had to 'charm' the other faithful son's 'righteous anger', who had to live faithfully under that strict rule, in order to be 'safe' from the deception of this world.

Is GOD's Law 'weak', or men of carnal/flesh/self's passions and desires, who chose HIS hospitality in their helpless and hopeless desperation, in the first place, later made them 'weak', over the years of HIS absence?

Did the one HE made with Christians turn out to be better through CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT?

Or the Christians after being washed clean, once again continued in their carnal/flesh/self's passions and desires and over the years of HIS absence, also once again, 'made provisions for themselves in order to gratified its desires, even have made the one which have been made better, 'weak' all over again?

Sinfulness historically repeating it 'self', even in the 'born again' church/body of CHRIST?

In incomplete desperation 'everyone' wants to teach others, when they themselves have not understood GOD's Kingdom knowledge well.

According to the New Covenant/Testament, 'freedom' comes , achieved or given when one who 'believe' in CHRIST, therefore if/unless they 'abide' in HIS word/teaching, then indeed be 'set free'. Bondage is due to failing in doing so, according to the 'voice' of their MASTER.

When Christians themselves declare that the 'established' and 'written' Truth. as been 'altered', 'translated', 'rewritten' and 'unreliable' and 'untrue', therefore have become untrue for many, but not to the few who are still faithful to what is 'declared' by only men 'untrue'.

There is no need for the 'righteousness' of GOD to change anymore, for it is been made 'perfect' for change and peace with HIM and moreover we have been washed clean and called to 'abide' and 'practice' them and become ourselves as 'wise builders' for HIM, honoring CHRIST's word/teaching.

GOD's given to HIS redeemed people, Old or New Covenant/Testament 'perfect Law' is and will stand 'forever and ever'. Amen.

As it is written;

"Heaven and earth may pass away but My word/teaching will stand forever and ever. Amen."

The 'Law' given according to the Old Covenant/Testament by GOD through Moses to HIS redeemed people of Israel from Egypt's slavery is, 'temporary' and for that moment of 'predestined time', given to act only as an 'custodian' to them, until the 'better' one to come appears through their MESSIAH, JESUS, the New Covenant/Testament. We as 'born again' and in word/teaching written of CHRIST and by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT, through the knowledge of Apostle Paul the 'born again' Jew, have come to know these.

By the 'Law' of GOD, man is 'defined' as sinners against them in imperfection, to that which is 'perfect' and 'Holy'. And what 'body' have been 'defined' as imperfect and sinful, has been made perfect and sinless through the church/body of CHRIST and HIS blood, to become 'good' and 'acceptable', if/unless individually its members 'abide', to the word/teaching of their 'HEAD'.

If not, it will like once again its members, like, 'a dog who will go back to its own vomit'. Or, 'a swine who is washed clean, will go back to roll over the dirt once again'. Didn't JESUS say;

"Your sins are forgiven thee, therefore sin no more."

Isn't what is gracefully given according to 1 John 1;9, is for us to learn to sin less and no more in 'abiding' and 'practice' to HIS word/teaching. And also that is why in relation to these Apostle Paul said that, 'those who keep on sinning belongs to the devil'.

Isn't HE referring to those remain unclean, 'unbelievers' who take pleasure in idolatry, eating and drinking and partying. and buying and selling and with those who do the same and ignore HIM and HIS Word/teaching of Salvation, JESUS and in remembering HIS Covenant and HIS coming soon to pronounce judgement?

Anyone who are born from above are inwardly spiritual, through CHRIST's word/teaching, and as they 'abide' and 'practice' them, they find inner strength and inner peace, while they suffer, for they delight in the written perfect 'Law' of always 'AGAPE' and to be true.

Have we truthfully and faithfully train to follow CHRIST's example, according to HIS every word/teaching written and given, even through HIS Apostles to the church, as the New Covenant/testament GOD made with us as 'New Israel', calling us to 'prctice' and 'abide' and bear fruit?

Therefore why are we asking for trouble once again becuse of our 'itching ears', to do as well what has been already 'accomplished' for us by the LORD, till death on the Cross?

The 'trouble' that will come upon on those who 'look back' and want to 'follow', even to the 'least commandment' written in the 'Law of the Letter', is under 'curse' and Grace and Truth of the New Covenant/Testament is of no use at all anymore. Apostle Paul faithfully lived under the 'Law of the Letter' given by GOD through Moses to his ancestors and he himself was bound to them. But when he found Grace and Truth, he received 'spiritual revelational understanding' from CHRIST, about the 'Law of the Letter' and its consequences, due to the weakness of the flesh/carnal/self to accomplish them, and therefore ruled by sin and death.

That is why Apostle Paul said to the Gentile church who were beginning to delight and wanting to embrace the commandment of 'Law of the Letter', which was intigated by a 'sneaked in Jew', in their 'liberated lives' of Grace and truth with CHRIST, adding them together in worship, and 'as it is written';

"if you obey one 'letter' from the 'Law of Moses', you must obey all."

"If you disobey even to the least of the commandment in the 'Law of the Letter', you are under curse."

How about 'keping/abiding' CHRIST's commandments of 'spirit' and 'life' written in the New Covenant/Testament and bear fruit, and therefore they 'fulfill' the 'righteous requirement' of written Ten Commandments amd the written Law's commandments of GOD ccording to the Old Covenant/Testament?

We are to be taught and be trained by 'All Scripture and know in spiritual knowledge which God's Covenant do we 'belong to'. Do we belong to the Covenant made through Moses to the 'Jerusalem of Hagar' who is a bound slave woman, or do we belong to the Covenant made through CHRIST to the 'Jerusalem of Sarah' who is a free liberated woman?

How about rereading that same Holy Scripture and understanding them in 'context', rather than cutting short and explaning them incomplete. JESUS said, 'until everything is accomplished'. When HE was teaching this from the 'sermon on the Mount', has HE 'accomplished' them, by living according to the righteous requirements of GOD regarding the Law and the Prophets'?

Not yet right, because HE just got started and lived to finish/accomplish them, till death on the Cross. And that is why death could not 'confined' HIM, when death was able to do with others who were unable to finish/accomplish its 'righteous requirements'.

GOD bless you all in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Yahshua · Jun 4, 2015

Firstly, if the scriptures say that "the law of the Father is perfect" that's the correct premise and everything else must be reconciled around that. It can not be dismissed. To say that it is a false premise or to accuse the OP of presenting that's premise as if that is not clearly expressed in scripture is, in fact, faulty.

Secondly, a law is not a covenant and a covenant is not a law. More specifically, the "Old" covenant is not referring to the (perfect) law of God but is referring to the *agreement* made by a group of people *to follow* the law. This is similar to a contract between two parties which is often/always based on the law of one's state or providence, should the contract be broken.

The agreement, the Covenant, which was made in blood (i.e. a life or death deal), was broken when that group broke God's law...this meant that group deserved to die. God was justified to kill them because that's the agreement/covenant they entered into with him.

This failure was NOT on the part of God's law, BUT was on the part of the weakness of man, proving God's perfect righteousness and supreme authority and absolute right to judge mankind in death. Without God's law in continued existence, as the balance by which we are weighed, God would not - could not - be King and we would not - could not - know what sin (i.e. a crime against God) is. So it hasn't gone anywhere lest we say God isn't ruler.

But God had mercy (just like he continues to have mercy) even on those who broke (break) his perfect law back then (and today).

Today most of us understand that the perfect solution is Christ...but the point many miss is that God provided a path of salvation from the judgment of death by adding a set of remedies to his law: the animal sacrifices...yet it was THIS (specific) law that was imperfect...and a shadow of Christ. It was THIS law that was instituted as a type but which could never (effectively) save anyone, because the blood of animals can never cleanse the conscience of a sinful person.

Together, it is the Law (commandments) that reveal what sin is...yet the Law (sacrifices portion) could never take away sins. So the Law (sacrifices portion, in context of Hebrews) was set aside and passed away for a better remedy (Christ), cleansing the believer's heart and granting them the power (Christ's Grace) to obey God (i.e. follow the commandments just like Christ did).

Now, there were also rules/ordinances in God's law that were:

-personal (based on your personal situation, physical heritage, etc.)
-gender specific (males, females)
-conditional (based on whether you were in the land, whether the temple existed, etc.)

...In other words, not every rule in the Law EVER applied to everyone and not every rule in the Law applies (present tense) to everyone now. However, *The Commandments* were never ordinances. The Commandments are at the core of God's law; its foundation. It's the reason why they, and they alone (as opposed to any other ordinance), were placed within the very foundation of God's earthly throne (The ark of testimony, his *seat of authority*), the first set of which were struck by God's own hand from the same sapphire stone that made his Heavenly throne...until Moses broken them because of the people's sin.

Thirdly, a testament is not a law nor is a law a testament. A testament is proof or evidence something is true. In other words, a testament TESTIFIES to something. It's a witness.

At Mt. Sinai, the "Old" testament was:

- the bulls blood sprinkled on the people after they agreed to the covenant (something must die for sin)
- the rewritten tables of stone
- the budded staff of aaron (right of priesthood)
- the portion of manna

Each of these, as the testament [1], TESTIFIED to the agreement (covenant) [2] the people made to obey God's perfect law [3]. Notes these are three separate things: The Testament, The Convenant, The Law. But again the covenant was broken (by breaking God's law). And only one who is not guilty of breaking them can restore what was broken and restore God's people to a right standing with him (while still satisfying the law).

Enters Christ who establishes the "New" Testament [1] and "everlasting" covenant [2] in his blood:

- His blood will be sprinkled inside of a person to change their heart
- His perfect life was/is the living tables of stone as he never sinned
- His Melchizedek priesthood is established in his resurrection (right of priesthood)
- He along being from heaven (the true, living bread)

Christ TESTIFIED [1] to the RESTORED agreement (covenant) [2] to obey God's perfect law [3]...and anyone who believes in him is grafted into that *same original group* and granted the same promises/blessings offered to that group so long as they keep the covenant (i.e. obey God's Commandments). HOWEVER, IF they stumble and sin, no longer do they have to find an animal to kill (i.e. the law of sin & death) because that law - the law of sin & death; the sacrifices - has passed away and was only a shadow. They simply have to go to the high priest, **confess their sin** and **turn from the sin** and he will cleans and mediate (i.e. the law of Spirit & life).

And because he can never die again, he is constantly cleansing the conscience and guiding with his Spirit until eventually the recipient of his blood & Spirit becomes "perfect"; which means the perfect law of God now lives on the inside in the heart, in its true form where it belongs (where it can't be misinterpreted or mistranslated or manipulated/altered but understood correctly in context at all times) and the believer walks in it without fail through faith in God's power; the mystery hidden from mankind; Christ in you.

---

So saying The Sabbath was a sign of the "Old Covenant" is false. The Sabbath is a law that's hasn't been put away.

And to say circumcision was a sign of the "Old Covenant" is also false because Christ calls it the greatest commandment of the covenant, which he reaffirms in his "New" Testament.

Deuteronomy 30:6
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Matthew 22:36-37
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Eliwood · Jun 4, 2015

@JGIG

Here's something else to consider, since we're talking about sacrifices. A lot of people are under the impression that doing one after the cross would be sin, because it would be "attempting to replace the sacrifice that Jesus made" when he died. But if this is the case, why does Jesus say that HE HIMSELF will eat the passover in the kingdom of God?

And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:16)

I'm not saying that we need to do sin offerings anymore. It's not about legalism. It's about pleasing and obeying God. The Torah says that the burnt offerings are a "pleasant aroma to His nostrils". These sacrifices point to Yeshua, not replace Him.

You pointed out the verse in hebrews 9 that says Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. But what about offerings that are made out of obediance to His law? If God meant for us to never offer another animal sacrifice again after Jesus's sacrifice, you would have to disregard all the prophecies about animal sacrifices being made during the Kingdom of God, and the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.

Whether sin offerings are still necessary or not (which they probably aren't) those gifts are still pleasing to God. So it makes perfect sence to continue to do them once the temple is rebuilt. Bearing this in mind, there is no contradiction, and Jesus's words in Luke 16:17 still stand.

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:17)

sparkman · Jun 4, 2015

Eliwood said:

I watched the video.

Firstly, he tries to connect this issue with the NIV. Regardless of what translation you read it in, the issue still remains. I personally use the ESV and the meaning is clear. Even with his rendering, there is not a reason to think that sabbathkeeping is required of Christians. His assertion that these verses require festival observance runs counter to the clear teaching that the Old Covenant is obsolete.

In addition, his false assumption is that it's an either/or situation. The heretics are either talking about Greek philosophy, or they are talking about Judaizing. He eliminates the possibility that the heretics have a combination of both false teachings.

The overall message of Colossians 2 is that believers are complete in Christ, and don't need to follow the teachings of these heretics to approach God. They didn't need any secret knowledge provided by these false teachers. They already had this knowledge in Christ (v. 1-4). Notice how the believers were "filled" or "complete" in Him (v. 10). Notice how they were spiritually circumcised("without hands"), by putting off the body of flesh, through him (v.11). Notice how we are made alive in Him through his death, burial and resurrection (v. 12-15).

You should notice the repetitive use of "in him" in this part of the chapter. The message was that the Colossians were already complete in Christ. They didn't need to be physically circumcised, and they didn't need any special spiritual knowledge offered by those claiming special insight in order to approach Christ.

By the way, my understanding is that you do believe you need to be physically circumcised, and that Hebrew Roots teachers are into asserting themselves as masters of the faith which you must turn to in order to properly approach God, so I would suggest that their approach is like what the Colossians were being warned about.

If one views Colossians 2:16-17 in light of the fact that the preceding verses are talking about our completeness in Christ, as well as the following verses, one can see that these heretical teachers were attempting to bring the Colossians under control of their teachings. Part of their teachings included observance of the weekly Sabbath, Holy Days, and New Moons.

Notice that these heretical teachers were attempting to restrict their behavior, and to bring the believers under control, all throughout the chapter. They were trying to enforce regulations upon them which didn't apply as they were already complete in Christ. So, for Paul to mention the Sabbath, Holy Days, and Festivals as binding and required right in the middle of this context does not make sense. These teachers were trying to restrict behavior, not tell them they didn't have to do certain things anymore. Paul, on the other hand, was showing them that they were complete in Christ and did not have to approach God in this way, through asceticism, legalism, and all kinds of rules and regulations.

The context and behavior of these false teachers simply does not fit the assertion that Paul was claiming they needed to keep the Sabbath, Holy Days, and festivals. These teachers were being restrictive.

Another faulty argument he made was that the Gnostics were against the Holy Days due to eating and drinking, but only the Feast of Tabernacles involved eating more than normal. In fact, the Day of Atonement involves fasting.

The guy in the video also acts as though Paul's focus was on the law of God, which is not true. His focus was on Jesus Christ and placing your faith in him. That is a fundamental error of legalism. The gospel becomes all about the Law, and Christ and salvation through him is virtually ignored.

The guy in the video said that it was easily concluded by most that the Gnostics were the ones telling the Colossians not to keep the feast days. Virtually no one but legalists would say that is a true statement. He simply misrepresented the majority of Christianity with that remark.

Here's another thing..why do they use the word Yeshua instead of Jesus? Jesus is a more proper rendering of the Greek, and the New Testament was not written in Hebrew. There is nothing pagan about the word Jesus.

Also, if these guys are teaching that physical circumcision is required, they are in very clear and direct opposition to Scripture.

Eliwood, here's the thing I want to challenge you with. Is the focus of ministries like 119ministries about Jesus Christ and him crucified, or is it about the Law? Do you even understand the message of the gospel? I do not think you have a good understanding of the gospel. I really want to challenge yourself in that regard. The fact that you spit upon the concept of grace is not a sign that you've been deeply affected by the fact that you are a sinner by nature, and that you understand your sins, and that you have asked for the application of Christ's sacrifice to them and have received that forgiveness. A person who has done this shouldn't be spitting on God's grace like I've seen you do.

I would also say, in regards to Colossians 2, that even if they aren't so clear to you, you still can't get past the fact that the Old Covenant was between God and Israel, not God and Christians. The Sabbath is part of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant applies to no one today. Therefore the Sabbath applies to no one today. I have provided adequate Scriptures in regards to that so I won't bother repeating them again.

sparkman · Jun 4, 2015

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in effect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Eliwood · Jun 4, 2015

Here's another one that would have been good for the list:

If Jesus came to change the law of God, why does Daniel 7:25 say the one who will actually try to do this will be the anti-christ?

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25)

Funny, isn't it?

When the ignorant and unstable say that Jesus Christ changed God's law (which he didn't), they're actually accusing him of the very thing his enemy will do. It's amazing how discieved the world is.

This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels. (revelation 12:9)

sparkman · Jun 4, 2015

Yahshua said:

Firstly, if the scriptures say that "the law of the Father is perfect" that's the correct premise and everything else must be reconciled around that. It can not be dismissed. To say that it is a false premise or to accuse the OP of presenting that's premise as if that is not clearly expressed in scripture is, in fact, faulty.

Secondly, a law is not a covenant and a covenant is not a law. More specifically, the "Old" covenant is not referring to the (perfect) law of God but is referring to the *agreement* made by a group of people *to follow* the law. This is similar to a contract between two parties which is often/always based on the law of one's state or providence, should the contract be broken.

The agreement, the Covenant, which was made in blood (i.e. a life or death deal), was broken when that group broke God's law...this meant that group deserved to die. God was justified to kill them because that's the agreement/covenant they entered into with him.

This failure was NOT on the part of God's law, BUT was on the part of the weakness of man, proving God's perfect righteousness and supreme authority and absolute right to judge mankind in death. Without God's law in continued existence, as the balance by which we are weighed, God would not - could not - be King and we would not - could not - know what sin (i.e. a crime against God) is. So it hasn't gone anywhere lest we say God isn't ruler.

But God had mercy (just like he continues to have mercy) even on those who broke (break) his perfect law back then (and today).

Today most of us understand that the perfect solution is Christ...but the point many miss is that God provided a path of salvation from the judgment of death by adding a set of remedies to his law: the animal sacrifices...yet it was THIS (specific) law that was imperfect...and a shadow of Christ. It was THIS law that was instituted as a type but which could never (effectively) save anyone, because the blood of animals can never cleanse the conscience of a sinful person.

Together, it is the Law (commandments) that reveal what sin is...yet the Law (sacrifices portion) could never take away sins. So the Law (sacrifices portion, in context of Hebrews) was set aside and passed away for a better remedy (Christ), cleansing the believer's heart and granting them the power (Christ's Grace) to obey God (i.e. follow the commandments just like Christ did).

Now, there were also rules/ordinances in God's law that were:

-personal (based on your personal situation, physical heritage, etc.)
-gender specific (males, females)
-conditional (based on whether you were in the land, whether the temple existed, etc.)

...In other words, not every rule in the Law EVER applied to everyone and not every rule in the Law applies (present tense) to everyone now. However, *The Commandments* were never ordinances. The Commandments are at the core of God's law; its foundation. It's the reason why they, and they alone (as opposed to any other ordinance), were placed within the very foundation of God's earthly throne (The ark of testimony, his *seat of authority*), the first set of which were struck by God's own hand from the same sapphire stone that made his Heavenly throne...until Moses broken them because of the people's sin.

Thirdly, a testament is not a law nor is a law a testament. A testament is proof or evidence something is true. In other words, a testament TESTIFIES to something. It's a witness.

At Mt. Sinai, the "Old" testament was:

- the bulls blood sprinkled on the people after they agreed to the covenant (something must die for sin)
- the rewritten tables of stone
- the budded staff of aaron (right of priesthood)
- the portion of manna

Each of these, as the testament [1], TESTIFIED to the agreement (covenant) [2] the people made to obey God's perfect law [3]. Notes these are three separate things: The Testament, The Convenant, The Law. But again the covenant was broken (by breaking God's law). And only one who is not guilty of breaking them can restore what was broken and restore God's people to a right standing with him (while still satisfying the law).

Enters Christ who establishes the "New" Testament [1] and "everlasting" covenant [2] in his blood:

- His blood will be sprinkled inside of a person to change their heart
- His perfect life was/is the living tables of stone as he never sinned
- His Melchizedek priesthood is established in his resurrection (right of priesthood)
- He along being from heaven (the true, living bread)

Christ TESTIFIED [1] to the RESTORED agreement (covenant) [2] to obey God's perfect law [3]...and anyone who believes in him is grafted into that *same original group* and granted the same promises/blessings offered to that group so long as they keep the covenant (i.e. obey God's Commandments). HOWEVER, IF they stumble and sin, no longer do they have to find an animal to kill (i.e. the law of sin & death) because that law - the law of sin & death; the sacrifices - has passed away and was only a shadow. They simply have to go to the high priest, **confess their sin** and **turn from the sin** and he will cleans and mediate (i.e. the law of Spirit & life).

And because he can never die again, he is constantly cleansing the conscience and guiding with his Spirit until eventually the recipient of his blood & Spirit becomes "perfect"; which means the perfect law of God now lives on the inside in the heart, in its true form where it belongs (where it can't be misinterpreted or mistranslated or manipulated/altered but understood correctly in context at all times) and the believer walks in it without fail through faith in God's power; the mystery hidden from mankind; Christ in you.

---

So saying The Sabbath was a sign of the "Old Covenant" is false. The Sabbath is a law that's hasn't been put away.

And to say circumcision was a sign of the "Old Covenant" is also false because Christ calls it the greatest commandment of the covenant, which he reaffirms in his "New" Testament.

Deuteronomy 30:6
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Matthew 22:36-37
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

See the Scriptures I refer to above.

The Sabbath was most certainly an identifying sign of the Old Covenant, as was circumcision. Both identified a person as a member of the Old Covenant. Circumcision was the one-time entry sign, and Sabbath was the continuing, "remembrance" sign.

In addition, the word Law most certainly does refer to the Old Covenant in some places.

As I note in the other answers, the Old Covenant was between God and Israel. We are not parties to that covenant. The Sabbath was the sign of that covenant, along with circumcision. The Old Covenant was only in place until Christ came. See Galatians 3. It no longer applies to anyone now. And neither does the Sabbath because it was part of that covenant. The Sabbath is not a moral absolute like the other 9 commandments. The New Covenant involves much higher demands including loving others like Christ loved them.

sparkman · Jun 4, 2015

Titus 3:10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,

The KJV says heretic.

Enjoy your legalistic life, Pharisee. Maybe you might eventually come to Christ.

Eliwood said:

Eliwood · Jun 4, 2015

Really makes you think, doesn't it?

JGIG · Jun 4, 2015

Eliwood said:

So detail for us how you do sacrifices according to the Law in the way that Solomon did in 1 Kings 2.

And remember that you have NOT in ANY WAY addressed the issue of there being NO Levitical priesthood to mediate Old Covenant practices, not because there are no longer any Levites around anymore, but because Christ, of the tribe of Judah, has been appointed by God as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New And Better Covenant.

You can come back with any edicts/offerings/sacrifices from the Old Covenant you want - the fact remains that there is NO MEDIATOR for Old Covenant practice in God's eyes.

-JGIG

Eliwood · Jun 4, 2015

@JGIG

1 Kings is a history book. Not the book of the law (torah). Just because Solomon offered sacrifices outside the tent of meeting doesn't mean we should too.

sparkman · Jun 4, 2015

What it all comes down to is not God's law but Eli's Law, Jon's Law, etc....not God's Law.

Pick and choose, cafeteria plan lawkeeping. Worldwide Church of God was the same way. Create your own Torah

JGIG · Jun 4, 2015

JGIG said:

Eliwood said:

What Solomon demonstrated is that it was possible to offer sacrifices without a temple. You need to deal with that reality.

And you still have not addressed this:

And remember that you have NOT in ANY WAY addressed the issue of there being NO Levitical priesthood to mediate Old Covenant practices, not because there are no longer any Levites around anymore, but because Christ, of the tribe of Judah, has been appointed by God as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New And Better Covenant.

You can come back with any edicts/offerings/sacrifices from the Old Covenant you want - the fact remains that there is NO MEDIATOR for Old Covenant practice in God's eyes.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jun 4, 2015

sparkman said:

Truth.

-JGIG

weakness · Jun 4, 2015

I briefly read the afore pages. It is said in scripture that all the law hangs on two, Love God.... and love thy neighbor...... In Heb. the Sabbath is spoken of that those to whom it was given enter not in because of unbelief. And therefore it has been left to us and we are to labour to enter into that rest,and he that has ceased from his own works as God did from his has also ceased from sin. This is the NT Sabbath, everyday, resting in Gods works and ceasing from our own. So if we love God and our neighbor and rest in Gods completed work, we have fulfilled the law That is written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

weakness · Jun 4, 2015

Luke 24:44.....These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms concerning me. 45 ...Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. Col 2:15 Let no man judge you therefore in meat, or in drink, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days; 17 Which are a shadow of things to come.

The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

Banned

sparkman

Guest

sparkman

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

sparkman

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

weakness

Guest

weakness

Guest