The Unanswerable Questions (Extended)

[Eliwood]

1. If the law of God is perfect, how can we say that what was perfect has been made better?

"The law of the Lord is perfect" (psalm 19:7)

2. If the law of God is freedom, how can freedom be "bondage" as many ministers label it as today?

"I will always obey your law, for ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts. "(psalm 119:44-45)

3. Can what is declared to be true become untrue?

"Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.(psalm 119:143)

4. Can the way of righteousness change? Especially after God repeatedly says throughout scripture that He never changes?

“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law." (Isaiah 51:7)

5. If the law of God is forever, when did "forever" become temporary?

Sabbath = Forever (Lev. 16:31)
Covenant = Forever (1 Chron 16:15)
Law = Forever (psalm 119:160)
Word = Forever (Isaiah 40:8)

6. Since the Law of God is what defines sin, can what is defined as sin suddenly become good and acceptable?

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

7. In Isaiah chapter 66, the prophet mentions that the when the messiah comes to earth for the second time, he will be angry when he sees his people eating pork. Why would this anger him if the dietary laws are no longer in effect?

"See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the LORD. Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean th​ings--they will meet their end together with the one they follow," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 66:15-17)

8. If we are to delight in the law, when did it stop being a delight?

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man."(Romans 7:22)

9. If Christ walked according to law of God, and we are to follow Christ's example, why do we not also follow the law of God?

10. If keeping all of God's commandments is the whole duty of man, is that no longer true?

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

11. If ALL scripture is instruction in righteousness, why do we not practice all scripture?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

12. Mathew 5:17-18 specifically says that the law of God cannot change until heavens and earth pass away. So why is it so commonly taught that the law HAS changed, even though christ warned that those who promote this false teaching will be called "least in the kingdom of heaven"?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (mathew 5:17-19)

13. If Christ said to observe everything that is taught from Moses' seat, why refuse to do what Christ said?

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Mathew 23:1-3)

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?

"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?

"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

17. Why does Isaiah prophesy that many will go to Jerusalemm to learn the law of God after the second coming if the law is no longer in effect?

"Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:3)

18. Why does Zechariah prophesy that people will still be celebrating the feast of tabernacles during the thousand year reign, and that anyone who doesn't participate will be cursed?

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." (Zechariah 14:17)

19. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

 

[Eliwood]

20. If God never changes, how can we say that He changed His mind about what is right and wrong.? If you killed people for breaking the law in the Old Testament, doesn't it seem a bit daft to say that He's perfectly fine with us breaking it now?

"I the LORD do not change...." (Malachi 3:6)

 

[Eliwood]

reserved for future questions

 

[Eliwood]

reserved for future questions

 

[sparkman]

Why are you creating multiple threads with the same questions?

The person who posts these questions is getting them from a Hebrew Roots ministry called 119ministry and isn't acknowledging his source. He also believes facets of Armstrongism, including that converted men are Gods in embryonic form.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

 

[sparkman]

The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Scripture clearly teaches that the Old Covenant is done away with. This Old Covenant includes the Ten Commandments. I Corinthians 3 calls the Old Covenant the “ministry of death”. Notice that this ministry of death was carved in letters on stone, and is clearly identified with the Ten Commandments in 2 Cor 3:7. The Ten Commandments and the rest of the Torah are not separate; the Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant. Much of the Old Covenant simply applies those laws practically.

 

[sparkman]

The Sabbath and Holy Days as part of the Old Covenant, are not in effect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years!I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ as our spiritual rest, just like animal sacrifices pointed to his coming atonement on the cross.
Despite the assertions of some Sabbathkeepers including the Seventh Day Adventists, the weekly Sabbath is clearly indicated in Colossians 2:16-17. The same word for Sabbath is used 60 times in the New Testament, and Seventh Day Adventists admit that the meaning is the weekly Sabbath in all but this verse, where they claim it is talking about the annual Sabbath.In addition, the word festival is clearly talking about annual Sabbaths, and that is commonly understood by casual readers of the Bible.

 

[sparkman]

20. If God never changes, how can we say that He changed His mind about what is right and wrong.? If you killed people for breaking the law in the Old Testament, doesn't it seem a bit daft to say that He's perfectly fine with us breaking it now?

"I the LORD do not change...." (Malachi 3:6)

OK..do you advocate killing homosexuals, rebellious sons, and Sabbathbreakers? This is required under the law. Have you done your duty lately and killed any?

Would you marry your brother's wife if he died?

If not, you are being inconsistent. All of these things were taught under the Old Covenant.

Go do your duty and go kill a couple of Sabbathbreakers, gays, and rebellious sons.

 

[sparkman]

Eliwood,

Regarding your remarks above, many are addressed in this post.

The Law was a faint glimmer of the holiness of God. Jesus Christ is the full revelation of God's holiness.

Focusing on the Law rather than Jesus Christ is the fundamental error of legalists. They embrace the shadow rather than the reality. Their gospel is all about the Law. Look at Jesus Christ to see what God's holiness is like. He is the standard. One must understand that Jesus was born under the law, so he kept elements of the Old Covenant, including circumcision and days, which do not apply to Christians.

The Law in general gives some guidance in terms of morals, and it is good to use to show a seeker that he is under the condemnation of the Law, so he can be brought to Christ. However, to insist that the law is the ultimate standard for holiness for a believer is not true. Jesus Christ himself is the ultimate standard, as he perfectly reflects God's holiness. The written code of the Law is actually a poor standard for a converted person. If you could keep the Law perfectly, you could still be a nasty, hateful person who would walk by a homeless person with money in your pocket. I suppose, though, if that nasty, hateful person was a Sabbath and festival keeper, in your books, he'd be all right with God, though.

I have heard from knowledgeable sources who know about the Hebrew roots movement is a tendency toward rejecting the deity of Christ amongst some of them. There is a tendency to embrace Unitarian Monotheism as one progresses in this false theology. Worshipping Judaism over Christianity ultimately ends in denying Christianity. I find this significant.

The gospel of Judaizers is all about the law. It is not about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in him. They may make some token remarks in that regard, but their focus is not on Him.

That is why Paul called it another gospel, and another Jesus. This heresy was rife in Galatia. And since you are preaching it, you'd better be sure you're right, because if not, you are accursed according to these Scriptures.

Galatians is particularly effective for addressing the truth claims of Judaizers. I remember when I attended Worldwide Church of God, a judaizing cult, that the pastor once told about some people in the church who converted to evangelical Christianity through reading the book of Galatians. The pastor said he wasn't going to get into "that old trap of Galatians". Regardless how Judaizers twist Galatians, it is very plain in denying that the Old Covenant applies to New Covenant Christians. READ GALATIANS!!!!!!

Galatians 1: [SUP]6 [/SUP]I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— [SUP]7 [/SUP]not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2: [SUP]15 [/SUP]We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; [SUP]16 [/SUP]yet we know that a person is not justified[SUP][b][/SUP] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[SUP][c][/SUP] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


Galatians 3:
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[SUP][a][/SUP] the flesh? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Did you suffer[SUP][b][/SUP] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[SUP][c][/SUP] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Galatians 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [SUP]14 [/SUP]so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] through faith.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]To give a human example, brothers:[SUP][f][/SUP] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[SUP][g][/SUP] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Notice below that those who want to be under the law are sons of the bondswoman, or slave:

Galatians 4
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;[SUP][e][/SUP] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you,[SUP][f][/SUP] brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

Notice below that Paul clearly describes the Old Covenant law as bondage. As much as your Hebrew Roots people want to deny this, it's clearly stated here.

Galatians 5 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[SUP][a][/SUP] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Notice that Paul points them to love, not to lawkeeping. Lawkeepers can be nasty, hateful people, yet fool themselves into thinking they are righteous.

Galatians [SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Notice that Paul points these people to moral absolutes and fruits of the Spirit, and not the things that lawkeepers focus upon:

Galatians 5 [SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy,[SUP][d][/SUP] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Notice also that those who claim to keep the Old Covenant are often liars and hypocrites. I have heard that this issue is rife in the Hebrew Roots movement.

Galatians 6 [SUP]11 [/SUP]See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. [SUP]12 [/SUP]It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

Regards,

Robert

 

[sparkman]

By the way, concerning Sabbath and festival keeping, I would go back to that in a second if God convinced me I was wrong, and I am convinced that all real Christians, who have the Holy Spirit, would do the same thing. I would do whatever I know God requires in a heartbeat.

The issue is whether those things apply to New Covenant Christians. I am convinced they do not. I have seen the bad fruit borne by legalism. I know the focus of legalists is not on Jesus Christ and the true gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Him. That is why I reject legalism, and that is why I will continue to spend the time and effort to combat it however I can. It detracts from the true gospel.

The caricature that legalists tend to convey about those who disagree with them is that the rest of us are unconcerned with obedience to God. That is a straw man. There are individuals called antinomians who are unconcerned with obedience, but true Christians are concerned with obedience to God. The question is, obedience to what? The Old Covenant does not apply to New Covenant Christians. There are different commandments that a New Covenant believer strives to follow, including loving one another like Christ loved us. Talk about a high standard.

 

[Eliwood]

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. (proverbs 28:9)

 

[Called4Christ]

Are your questions posed to gain understanding, Eliwood, or are they asked with the intention of causing division and confusion?

 

[Eliwood]

Hi called4christ. No, they aren't intended to cause confusion or division. Just to help people see that the whole bible is still true and directly relevent in our lives. Saying that certain commandments of God no longer apply directly contradicts what both Jesus and Paul say in the NT. As Peter warned in 2 Peter Chapter 3, ignorant and unstable people are attemping to twist Pauls words into something they aren't.

 

[sparkman]

19. Why do so many people mistakingly use Pauls letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this? Based on the following passage, Paul's letters are probably the worst books of the bible to use when it comes to teaching against God's commandments....

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position."(2 Peter 3:15-17)

The first assumption that you make is that people “mistakenly use Paul’s letters to teach that certain laws of God no longer apply when Peter warned against this”.

You are obviously still on the Sabbath and festival observances.

Scripture itself teaches that the Old Covenant is done away with.

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17).The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11).The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4).The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10).The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

I agree that some people are ignorant and unstable, but the question is, who?

Consider context when making assertions.Your assertions concerning these things applying to Torah observances such as the Sabbath, holy days, etcetera is not reasonable given the context.

Concerning the “error of the lawless” it is taking about false teachers who have no principles.If you read the whole book of 2 Peter 2, those individuals are described.The word “lawless” is athesmos which is defined as “one who breaks through the restraints of the law and gratifies his lust”.Particularly, sexual sin betrays many false teachers.

Notice the Scriptures below, which describe these men.Note the focus on sexual sin.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,[d] and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge[e] in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.
Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,[f] while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves[g] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

These verses are speaking about immoral false teachers, which are largely characterized by sexual immorality.Sex scandals are no unusual thing in the church, including amongst legalists. Nothing is said about being Torah observant as you have proclaimed that you are.

 

[sparkman]

18. Why does Zechariah prophesy that people will still be celebrating the feast of tabernacles during the thousand year reign, and that anyone who doesn't participate will be cursed?

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." (Zechariah 14:17)

Source: http://www.gci.org/law/festivals/zech14

Question: Prophecies indicate that the Sabbath and annual festivals will be kept in God’s ideal age (e.g., Isaiah 66:23; Zechariah 14:16-19). Does this prove that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be kept by his people today?
Answer: The prophets described an ideal time in which all peoples worship God. To effectively convey this to old covenant peoples, the prophets described old covenant forms of worship, including new moon observances (Isaiah 66:23), sacrifices in the temple (Zechariah 14:20-21; Ezekiel 45:17) and physical circumcision (Ezekiel 44:9; Isaiah 52:1-2). But neither physical circumcision nor animal sacrifices are religious requirements for Christians.

Will sacrifices be part of worship in the future? Opinions vary, but regardless, it is clear that these prophecies cannot be used to prove the validity of all these forms of worship for people under the new covenant, who have accepted and believe in Jesus Christ. Prophecies should be read for their purpose, not as a source from which we can infer standards and requirements for Christians. Our doctrines must be based on scriptures that are applicable to this age, the age of the new covenant.

 

[sparkman]

16. If we are to love God by keeping His commandments, why do we keep only some of His commandments?

"This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome" (1 john 5:2-3)

Christians keep all the commandments that apply to THEM.The Sabbath, Festivals, clean/unclean meats, and triple tithing laws don’t apply to Christians. These were part of the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11).The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4).The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10).The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

To be honest, as a Sabbath/festival keeper, those things were small potatoes in terms of effort compared to struggling with other sins, namely pride, anger, and lust. People who claim to be Torah compliant really are boastful over very small things.

 

[Eliwood]

@Sparkman, I don't really have the patience to read threw long posts like that, but since you keep repeating "we aren't under the old covenent anymore" over and over again, can you explain why Paul plainly says that we don't nullify the law by our faith in Jesus Christ? I think this statement from him is pretty plain:

Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no Means, rather we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

This verse isn't compatible with the error of dispensationalism.

 

[sparkman]

QUOTE=Eliwood;2095658]15. How can Paul be teaching people to follow God's law, but be against obeying God's law at the same time?

"Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means. Rather, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31) [/QUOTE]

The concept of law is still valid and God expects Christians to obey whatever applies to them. The law reflects that behavioral expectation. Assuming that the Torah is this behavioral standard is untenable, though, as we know that the Old Covenant is not in effect any longer for anyone, and never was in effect for Gentiles. There are many moral expectations in the apostolic writings, and those reflect what I would call “the law of Christ”.

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17). Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

 

[sparkman]

I'm not answering these questions for your amusement. I already know you are deceived. I am answering them for the benefit of someone who might be fooled by your false doctrine. You can depend on me countering your arguments with every single legalistic thread you create here, as long as I have the time and inclination. Same thing goes with the chat room.

@Sparkman, I don't really have the patience to read threw long posts like that, but since you keep repeating "we aren't under the old covenent anymore" over and over again, can you explain why Paul plainly says that we don't nullify the law by our faith in Jesus Christ? I think this statement from him is pretty plain:

Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no Means, rather we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31)

This verse isn't compatible with the error of dispensationalism.

 

[sparkman]

14. If Paul said that he obeyed God's law, and that there is no difference between jew and greek, how can we feel comfortable plucking small snippets out of Paul's letters, and using them to teach that the law of God has been abolished?

This one is a gem to show you how you and your teachers are taking things out of context.

Read the entire chapter, and see how YOU are taking this out of context.

It clearly says that ALL are justified by faith, and NOT by the works of the law. In fact,this is in a section of verses that declares the Old Covenant to be done away with. It was only in place until Christ came.

Galatians 3: 19 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Notice that all are made righteous by faith and not by the law. That's the main point of the very verses you quoted to prove we are to act like Jews in terms of the Law.