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A
No, he's still destroying nations and still bringing new ones along. He's still hardening hearts that already wanted to be hardened, and he's still changing hard hearts to soft hearts for his divine purposes. He's still bringing one humongous fish to the right spot at the right time (or maybe it's a hurricane, or maybe it's a flat tire, or maybe it's a life-threatening disease) to gulp someone down until that person says, "Oooooh. I get it now, Lord. You wanted me to go the other way." He's still the same as always, we've simply found new words to describe it.
I think there is a fine line in the midst of all of this predestination.......a few thoughts to ponder.....
1. God foreknew who would believe
2. God predetermined that all who would come to him dia Christ would be received and marked off as full grown sons/daughters..
3. MANY called, but few chosen (those who believe)
4. Salvation open to all although most will not believe
5. God dia Christ has done all that can be done but force belief.....everything testifies and all men have the ability to believe if they will "see" and "hear"
Just a few thoughts to ponder.....
1. God foreknew who would believe
2. God predetermined that all who would come to him dia Christ would be received and marked off as full grown sons/daughters..
3. MANY called, but few chosen (those who believe)
4. Salvation open to all although most will not believe
5. God dia Christ has done all that can be done but force belief.....everything testifies and all men have the ability to believe if they will "see" and "hear"
Just a few thoughts to ponder.....
J
My turn to make stuff up!
I don't think human comprehension is up to the task of figuring some things out in a doctrinally sound way, in our dark glasses, at that. God knew Adam was going to sin, the same way Psalms 22 describes the crucifixion, et al of prophecy, and we have the Lamb slain from even the foundation of the world. God is only light, but He also created all things, so what gives?
Paul didn't have a handle on this, Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. It's a "what if," not thus and such is the case. I think this is integral to the "mystery of iniquity" that perhaps can't be known by us. It's a question curiosity would make me want to ask God. But maybe we'll just see the whys and wherefores, in heaven.
I'm convinced God was not taken by surprise of the fall, He transcending time, by all indications the situation may have been such that, "Poor Adam and Eve, only about three hours left in paradise." He told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, there apparently a provision for painless child birth, but they weren't in the Garden long enough to do any multiplying. This is just speculation, not saying anything by it, just an interesting subject, but I think the fall was a no-brainer, and there is a conflict between Satan and his, and God and His, the terms of which we are not privy to, that goes to why things are as they are, that there's a story behind the story.
I figure if there's more false doctrine around here than a dog has fleas, I can do some honest speculation, thank you very much!
I don't think human comprehension is up to the task of figuring some things out in a doctrinally sound way, in our dark glasses, at that. God knew Adam was going to sin, the same way Psalms 22 describes the crucifixion, et al of prophecy, and we have the Lamb slain from even the foundation of the world. God is only light, but He also created all things, so what gives?
Paul didn't have a handle on this, Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. It's a "what if," not thus and such is the case. I think this is integral to the "mystery of iniquity" that perhaps can't be known by us. It's a question curiosity would make me want to ask God. But maybe we'll just see the whys and wherefores, in heaven.
I'm convinced God was not taken by surprise of the fall, He transcending time, by all indications the situation may have been such that, "Poor Adam and Eve, only about three hours left in paradise." He told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, there apparently a provision for painless child birth, but they weren't in the Garden long enough to do any multiplying. This is just speculation, not saying anything by it, just an interesting subject, but I think the fall was a no-brainer, and there is a conflict between Satan and his, and God and His, the terms of which we are not privy to, that goes to why things are as they are, that there's a story behind the story.
I figure if there's more false doctrine around here than a dog has fleas, I can do some honest speculation, thank you very much!
A
Um, if it helps any. Most folks who know me after a while, and don't want to write out my whole screen name end up dubbing me @?$. (@ = at. ? = What? $ = Cost.)
And, I really don't think taking Romans 9 as a fallacy works too well. It's quite clear, God really, really hates some people. His choice. It doesn't get any clearer than, "Jacob I loved. Esau I hated." And, if that's not clear enough the before-that-line-in-that-chapter has been building up since after Paul's greeting in Romans 1, and is crystal clear after that line, if you keep on reading. (Romans 1 actually tells how God hardens hearts, so it's not like it's divided up in some strange way. It's really, really connected.)
I can't help that someone divided the scripture into chapters and verses, so many go off and think they can pause after a chapter. I just get Romans. The book, not merely a verse or two flung here or there.
And, I really don't think taking Romans 9 as a fallacy works too well. It's quite clear, God really, really hates some people. His choice. It doesn't get any clearer than, "Jacob I loved. Esau I hated." And, if that's not clear enough the before-that-line-in-that-chapter has been building up since after Paul's greeting in Romans 1, and is crystal clear after that line, if you keep on reading. (Romans 1 actually tells how God hardens hearts, so it's not like it's divided up in some strange way. It's really, really connected.)
I can't help that someone divided the scripture into chapters and verses, so many go off and think they can pause after a chapter. I just get Romans. The book, not merely a verse or two flung here or there.
A
John 3:16-17 is what God did about it.
John 3:18-20 is what man chose to do.
John 3:21 is God wroughts what he willed all along.
God no more chose every single person to be saved than Jesus really meant for the disciples to go into all the world in Mark 16.15.They never made it to the Americas or Australia, which many readily accept, and yet in this case somehow Jesus saved all and yet all aren't saved.
John 3:18-20 is what man chose to do.
John 3:21 is God wroughts what he willed all along.
God no more chose every single person to be saved than Jesus really meant for the disciples to go into all the world in Mark 16.15.They never made it to the Americas or Australia, which many readily accept, and yet in this case somehow Jesus saved all and yet all aren't saved.
A
Large line that seems (to me) to scribble out your fine line. God's omniscient. He knows everything all the time and he's also outside, (as well as inside), time and space. It's his choice -- singular -- always. Not ours. Our choice is always to hide in the darkness to enjoy our sins. If the light shines on us, then our reaction is always the same, "Whoa! Thank you, God. Sure thing. I'll follow."
We think chronologically, because we're in time and space. Can't really work for God though... or it can, but he holds that along with every single other thing he knows and he knows it all.
We think chronologically, because we're in time and space. Can't really work for God though... or it can, but he holds that along with every single other thing he knows and he knows it all.
J
People can label me a heretic if they will but it must be said.... that I don't believe God is afraid of my questions nor does He condemn me for my curiosity about Him. 
My "coming of age" in the 80's most certainly shaped my brain as it is today. Lol
My "coming of age" in the 80's most certainly shaped my brain as it is today. Lol
When I use a lexicon, I use Brown, Driver, and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the of the Old Testament, published by Oxford University Press; However, in this case, I knew the definition and did not use a lexicon.
Since you posted this, I did check BDB; and they agree with me; as I knew they would.
My copy of BDB is in a format that does not copy and paste well.