When does the rapture occur?

[FancyNancy]

Read Revelation 19 as it says and shows that after the events of the GT does the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb take place. The marriage and marriage supper does not take place during or before the GT, nor does it have two separate timings of it taking place. It happens once and takes place after the events of the GT.

Nope. YOU read it. It speaks of the wedding feast.

 

[FancyNancy]

?


At what time during the end times is the man of sin revealed ????


Apostle Paul says this event happens before the gathering (rapture) of us together to the Lord........................

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

The Antichrist will reveal himself as the evil man of sin at the midpoint of the seven years of Tribulation. If you are a Christian, you will be in heaven enjoying the wedding.

This will happen before the Lord returns with His saints to vanquish His enemies and to establish His Kingdom on the Earth.

 

[GaryA]

No millennial earthly kingdom?

It is after the end of the list.

 

[GaryA]

God's wrath is poured out on the unbelieving world during the Tribulation period!

Part true. Part not true. See below.

This is a false teaching that the whole tribulation is God's wrath, ...

It is a false teaching that any part of the tribulation is God's wrath...

God's wrath is poured out at the end of the GT with Jesus returning at the battle of Armageddon...

No.
No.


Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


29 - AFTER the tribulation, some stuff happens...

30 - THEN, Jesus appears with clouds...

31 - THEN, the elect are gathered...

Now - whether you are someone who believes that verse 31 is talking about the [ first ] rapture or the - uh - - second rapture (sic) -- I am "pretty sure" you believe that those who are 'gathered' are removed from the earth - where the Wrath of God is about to "be unleashed"...

( i.e. - the Wrath of God occurs AFTER the event described in verse 31 )

All who belong to God are removed so as to not have to go through the Wrath of God, right?

And, there is no one to 'gather' after the Wrath of God; at best, some of the wicked may remain ( alive ) after the Wrath of God ( but, possibly / probably not ).

( i.e. - only the wicked are left / present on the earth for / during the Wrath of God; none - or very precious few - are left afterward )

This means that the order of events in this scenario is:

~ Great Tribulation Period

~ Jesus appears

~ Elect 'gathered'

~ Wrath of God

Therefore:

~ God's Wrath is AFTER the Great Tribulation Period


If the Wrath of God occurred at the end of the Great Tribulation Period, there would be no one left afterward to experience what occurs in verses 29, 30, and 31 above.


I believe that the description in verse 29 correlates with the trumpet events.

I believe that the description in verse 30 is the Second Coming of Christ.

I believe that the description in verse 31 is the "catching up" of saints.


The Wrath of God must occur after these things because:

~ Since Jesus is the One who "dishes out" the Wrath of God -- He is "already here" when the vials start being poured out.

( i.e. - the return of Christ is BEFORE the Wrath of God )

~ Since Jesus is the One who all of the armies gather against at Armageddon -- He is "already here" when the armies begin to assemble.

Jesus does not 'return' at the battle of Armageddon. Jesus returns before the Wrath of God is "poured out"; He is the One doing it:


2 Thessalonians 1:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [SUP]8[/SUP] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]9[/SUP] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 19:

[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [SUP]12[/SUP] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [SUP]13[/SUP] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [SUP]15[/SUP] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Before the armies even begin to gather at Armageddon, vials 1-6 ( of the Wrath of God ) have been "poured out"...

 

[GaryA]

Before the armies even begin to gather at Armageddon, vials 1-6 ( of the Wrath of God ) have been "poured out"...

The 'event' that we call 'Armageddon' ( Revelation 16:16 ) is not even part of the Great Tribulation Period.

It takes place during the Wrath of God.

Understand?

 

[TMS]

The Son of Man appears outside of the Earth (the old dwelling place of the Bride) as a flash across the sky like lightning. He sends the Archangel ahead to blow the Shofar of GOD and calls out the Bride with a SHOUT, just like every Traditional Jewish Wedding in history. The Bridegroom is NOT ALLOWED TO SET FOOT in the old dwelling place of the bride when she is Called Out to go to His Father's House. That is where a Traditional Jewish Wedding is always held and it is where the Wedding Chamber has been Built by the Bridegroom. The Wedding is a week long Ceremony, and I believe the 70th Week of Daniel (a Week of YEARS), is also the Wedding of the Lamb, and also the Reign of the Antichrist that includes the Great Tribulation. At the END of that Week of YEARS, Christ comes back as KING of Kings to reclaim the Earth and set up His Earthly Kingdom reigning for 1000 Years from the Throne of David. Then comes the Judgement Day, followed by the Eternal State, in which we live on a NEW EARTH with a NEW ATMOSPHERE.

In a traditional Jewish Wedding, NOT EVERYONE was invited to the Wedding Ceremony.

Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For many are called, but few are chosen."

However, everyone was invited to the Wedding Supper (or Suppers) at the end of the Ceremony. Frequently there would more than one Wedding Supper, because back then it was very difficult for people to travel great distances for a WEDDING. So if there were three or four Communities with Relatives in them, and none were close to the others, the Bride and Groom would do the travelling after the Wedding Ceremony to Celebrate a Wedding Supper with each group of relatives.

If you want more details, you are welcome to wade through all 148 pages.
Why the 180 degree differences on this subject?
I suspect one of the primary reasons could be the difference between Born Again and Not Yet Born Again.
Why do I say that?
Because it is the born again experience that brings our Human Spirit to eternal life via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, establishing a genuine inner personal LOVE relationship with HIM as our LORD and our BRIDEGROOM. Prior to that we can know a great deal about HIM and the Bible, but it is all head knowledge, and not Heart Knowledge of genuinely KNOWING HIM.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Does that mean the dead in Christ will not be part of the wedding? I don't believe Jesus will touch the earth either, when He comes He will meet them in the air, the saved will Go to His Father's house (God the father), the raised and the raptured together. Are some of these things you are saying presumption? Because i have studied Daniel 9 and the 70 week prophesy and i can't see how you can just split it up and move the last week into the future. There is no verse given to prove this and the last week was perfectly fulfilled.

 

[GaryA]

Since Jesus is the One who all of the armies gather against at Armageddon...

Please understand the context of this statement:

Revelation 19:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[popeye]

No I did not make anything up, and nothing in that parable says they still received salvation.

If you think it does then you are reading what is not there, just like trying to make this scripture out to be about the rapture when it is not.

Matthew 25 is parables that all of them speak of eternal life and being prepared in this life so to receive it when the Lord comes to give it to us who are faithful.

You know this by reading and seeing what the Lord said to those who were not prepared;

10 Virgins

(Matthew 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Matthew 25:14-30 is about the servants who was given their gift and sent to bring others into the fold.
One however did not go out and do His will and bring others to the faith in Jesus Christ, so this is what Jesus said to him;

(Matthew 25:30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



And do I really have to go on to the separation of the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31-46.
Where Jesus separates the faithful sheep from the unfaithful goats and gives the sheep eternal life, but gives the goats eternal punishment.

(Matthew 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



Each parable in Matthew 25 is about receiving eternal life in the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus is showing in each one how only the faithful who do God's will get eternal life. Nowhere in any of those parables refer to the rapture/gathering together of believers to the Lord. For Jesus clearly shows multiple times only faithful servants get eternal life, not disobedient servants who do not obey the gospel.............

2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ok like I said before,and you did not address,if the 10 virgins refers to salvation,then salvation can "run out" during the night,and I can ask a believer(assuing erroneously that 5 were unbelievers) for some of his salvation,(which he carried extra salvation as we all know salvation can run out,rolleyes) and a believer can give another salvation?????

Then we would tell an unbeliever to "go buy some MORE salvation because your salvation ran out???????

You are completely off the chart my friend.

See what happens when verses are cut to fit a doctrine??????

 

[popeye]

BTW,I am perplexed VCO,why you like a post that shreads the fact that OIl refers to the HS????????

 

[popeye]

So Jesus was warning His disciples in Mat 24 to be ready for the Great Tribulation He was going to bring to them? So if He didn't cut those days of His tribulation short He would kill everyone but for the Elect's sake He cut those days short?

You postribs never ever qualify mat 24.
Please re read,and note(not you gary) that Jesus was asked 3 questions.
And somehow get the hint that the ACTUAL AC will require a world wide mark.

 

[popeye]

You didn't answer my question. In Mat 24 was Jesus warning everyone that he was coming to kill them all but would cut the days of His killings short (for the sake of the Elect) or He would kill everyone? That to you is Christ doing the killing?

This is why Christ tells us to stay inside and don't go out because there will be a false one claiming to be him? Sorry, such thinking is borderline insane.

She did,but since you do not qualify mat 24 with jesus answering 3 questions she went over your head.

 

[popeye]

Re: OOPS!

HUH? Christ, the firstfruits, is the first resurrection. This means Christ and everyone He resurrected with Him, the OT saints.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.

Notice that the second resurrection, if you will, are those who are Christ's at HIS coming. Then comes the END. It doesn't say, "then comes the Tribulation" does it???

Notice the below says "resurrection" singular, not "resurrections" as in before the Trib and after the Trib? No part A or part B discussed.

Acts 4:2

being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

Notice again below, END OF THIS AGE, the age we are in now:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

You don't preach that the tares are gathered at the Pre-Trib Rapture, do you???

Uh,no because the lake of fire,which you missed ,is not pretrib.

 

[popeye]

"popeye 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Are you a product of public education or what? Why don't you go back 4 verses so you can locate this after the GT where it belongs?

Wow,so bizarre that you think AFTER THE GT,jesus comes and provides an escape not realizing he is too late to fulfill his own prophetic promise? (.....accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass......)

Oh,wait,maybe you think no one is worthy?

 

[flob]

Not an odd sect. Baptist. ( all my life )
As I said before, I was taught the pre-trib deception while growing up. However, through personal Bible Study, I discovered the truth and discerned the error...

well all sects are odd in the sense that they're not Scriptural, not the New Testament pattern.
But, so, it wasn't them who taught you your reading of Daniel............it is purely your idea? I mean it occurred to you in reading Daniel 9 alone, before you knew anyone else shared it? Likewise this tribulation/wrath distinction stuff?

I don't believe Jesus will touch the earth either,

How bizarre. Is this odd teaching from the people who create this site? Is it from Britain or Australia?
I never heard this oddness until now, til I visited here.
Degraded Christianity for long has had the "Heaven" preoccupation and fantasy. So I guess this "Jesus doesn't touch the earth" stuff is simply a logical extension of the fantasy. Trying to spell it out or justify it in the Bible.
Is it Arian?

Because (no offence) contrary to such nonsense, the Bible:
"He was lifted up and a cloud took Him away from their sight...This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet"
Acts 1:9-12.
"Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations...And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives..."
Zechariah 14:3-4.

when He comes He will meet them in the air, the saved will Go to His Father's house (God the father), the raised and the raptured together.

To the contrary, He (and His lovers) already are His Father's house.
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him"
John 14:23.
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith" Eph 3:17.
"The house of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" 1 Tim 3:15.


We don't go anywhere to be His house. Rather, He and His Father (and His Spirit) come into us. He went......to and through death and resurrection to accomplish this. Jn 14:2---17:26; 18:1--20:22.

i have studied Daniel 9 and the 70 week prophesy and i can't see how you can just split it up and move the last week into the future. There is no verse given to prove this and the last week was perfectly fulfilled.

The verses given to prove this are Daniel 9:26-27.
After the 62 weeks Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing; and the people of the prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end will be with a flood, and even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
And he [the prince whose people came] will make a firm covenant with the many for one week...

The people of the prince who will come destroy the city happens after the end of the 62 weeks (after Messiah was crucified). And yet the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is not part of the following, final, week. It's not part of the first 69 (7+62) weeks, because it does not refer to Messiah Himself. It did not happen before Messiah was crucified. In fact, Messiah prophesied it would happen....in the future, Mt 24:1-2.

He answered and said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, There shall by no means be left here a stone upon a stone, which shall not be thrown down.

Dan 9:27 goes on,
And he [not Messiah the Prince] will make a firm covenant with the many for one week.
There is the last week. There is a gap of unknown (at present) duration in time between the end of the 69th week---Messiah's crucifixion---and the Roman prince (Antichrist in this case, as in the rest of Daniel's end-times prophecies) making a "firm covenant with the many for one week." A covenant set to last for one week (7 years), which of course it does not. Based on the rest of verse 27.

History too, along with the Bible, verifies this gap happened.........and still is happening

 

[popeye]

popeye 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

plainword ,All of this is Second Coming post trib!!!

So,lets use your logic and disregard of the obvious.

AFTER the flood,noah was taken up in the ark,(maybe the earth was reflooded or something) then the plug was pulled immediately to get the ark back to earth (applying the postrib made up uturn of those caught up),....?????

Oh,wait,I just remebered,the ark would need to come down empty,and noah would go up to meet the empty ark,and then,ride the ark back to earth???????

Noah??? Postflood??? Interesting changes you make sir.!!!

Oh,but wait maybe lot can pull you out of that mire?????

Lets see,how can lot be delivered post fireball???

You are way more creative than me,but one Possible/postrib impossibility insane scenario might be;

The angels came to Abraham,but had a post fireball doctrine.
So abraham asked God "Will you destroy the city with Lot inside,and deliver him after the fireball,then let us go back immediately ??????" (invoking the post fireball uturn)

God said "you been list'nin to those wacky postrib angels haven't you???"

 

[popeye]

"popeye 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

lets see.......WORTHY?

.......as in 5 were worthy,5 were not?????

 

[popeye]

Postrib still has no verses?

Huh,nothing has changed.

Maybe some newbie can help you guys???????

 

[PlainWord]

Nope. YOU read it. It speaks of the wedding feast.

To Nancy, VCO, Popeye or anyone else who sees the Wedding before the Tribulation or even before the Millennium, please walk me through the progression. You claim the Bride is the Church taken before the Tribulation. How then does Israel and the Tribulation Saints become part of the Bride if the wedding is over?

Since you see the Wedding before or during the Trib and the Bride returning with Christ after the GT to reign for 1,000 years, explain how the Bride gets back to heaven again so that they can return here?

Rev 21: “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...

We see the Bride coming down from heaven after the Millenium in the above passage. So, do you teach a second rapture of the Church or do you teach multiple weddings. Does Christ have multiple Brides such as the Pre-Trib Church, the Post-Trib Saints (both alive and those who die), the Repentant Israel and those who die and live through the Millennium? How many Raptures, Returns, Weddings do you teach? How does each group end up back in Heaven before the Eternal State so that they are all together in the above passage?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Ok like I said before,and you did not address,if the 10 virgins refers to salvation,then salvation can "run out" during the night,and I can ask a believer(assuing erroneously that 5 were unbelievers) for some of his salvation,(which he carried extra salvation as we all know salvation can run out,rolleyes) and a believer can give another salvation?????

When you look at a congregation, all are ostensibly virgins, but any pastor who knows their congregation knows there are those not really saved. Knows there are those just going to church. It's pretty stark, of what the Lord says to the unwise virgins, "But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." I would ask, of somebody saved and of the Holy Spirit, can the Lord not know somebody with His Spirit dwelling in them, by any measure?

False believers bask in the light of true believers, even in the presence of Christ (Matthew 18:20), but have no light their own, are even doing a "playing church" thing in their "Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out." They can't be born again and have no Spirit, no light. Of course, it's even a ridiculous request of no spiritual understanding, as no man can provide salvation or the Spirit to another, but this is how false believers, with a lip service faith, view salvation, being part of a group, a religion, rituals, etc. They are a picture of the Loadiceans, who may find salvation in the fires of tribulation, but it's certain the Lord would not turn away somebody He knows, of His Spirit indwelling.

I think of it on the order of there being tares and wheat that look alike, the congregation looking like a field of wheat, when this isn't so. I don't know how you get past the the Lord says He doesn't even know the unwise virgins, how a true believer can have no Holy Spirit and no light. I think we have to keep in mind the Holy Spirit does the work of salvation, all tasting of the Holy Spirit that draws sinners and convicts of sin, continually convicting in a church congregation, with the hearing of His word, but some where that seed does not take root, who the Lord doesn't baptize in the Holy Spirit, the Lord who knows all hearts and those who truly repent and mourn their sin, who come in truth, as opposed to those who receive the word with head faith, have some emotional experience, but have not really come to the foot of the cross and repented at the Spirit's leading.

Again, the Lord cannot say He doesn't know somebody, with His indwelling Spirit. This would be like saying, "I don't know Myself." An absurdity. And if somebody doesn't have the Holy Spirit, they are not born again of the Spirit. You can't get around the basic truth of being born again, or not.

 

[JesusIsAll]

So,lets use your logic and disregard of the obvious.

AFTER the flood,noah was taken up in the ark,(maybe the earth was reflooded or something) then the plug was pulled immediately to get the ark back to earth (applying the postrib made up uturn of those caught up),....?????

Oh,wait,I just remebered,the ark would need to come down empty,and noah would go up to meet the empty ark,and then,ride the ark back to earth???????

Noah??? Postflood??? Interesting changes you make sir.!!!

Oh,but wait maybe lot can pull you out of that mire?????

Lets see,how can lot be delivered post fireball???

You are way more creative than me,but one Possible/postrib impossibility insane scenario might be;

The angels came to Abraham,but had a post fireball doctrine.
So abraham asked God "Will you destroy the city with Lot inside,and deliver him after the fireball,then let us go back immediately ??????" (invoking the post fireball uturn)

God said "you been list'nin to those wacky postrib angels haven't you???"

You obviously are unlearned of the scriptures that tell of Noah and family, as well as all the animals, treading water, until the waters receded, and the ark came to rest, only then they went into the ark. Of course, they went right back out (was a real log jam at the door), this the "doctrine of the U-turn." As applied to eschatology, the "yoyo rapture." Lot's clothing got real smoky, too.