When does the rapture occur?

[flob]

Jesus' Fulfillment:
Marriage Supper
As the bride and bridegroom celebrated with a joyous wedding supper, so Jesus and His bride, the church will celebrate the marriage. Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints) Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'". Revelation 19:6-9

So you're saying this wedding takes place with His saints right before He with them descends to Aramageddon.
The bride with combat boots.
And then the supper is His 1000 year kingdom on earth.

Jesus' Fulfillment:
Depart for Home
Just as the bride and bridegroom left the marriage supper to go to the home that the bridegroom had prepared, so Jesus and His bride will depart for their new home. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes... One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

This sounds good. Except I'd add that the Husband+Wife = the New Jerusalem. The church, the consummation of the church. He and us are a mutual indwelling now and for eternity on the new earth, which will be in the new heavens.

 

[PlainWord]

I see you cannot see the forest for the trees. The City, prepared as a bride is not the Bride. The Bride is people---those who will be dwelling in that glorious City.

Of course it is the people!! All the people are where? In the City which comes down from heaven. How do you think they got back up in heaven if we are to return with and stay with Christ??? HUH!!

This is exactly what you are doing.

LOL. Clear reading vs. inventions. Clear reading is the Bride comes down from heaven already in the new city Jerusalem when the new earth is created long after the GT and Mil. That's the clear meaning but it doesn't agree with your unclear theory so you jumble it around in an effort to fit your false narrative.

We will NOT be here for the Tribulation, but will be coming with Jesus on His glorious and terrible return.

Of course we will be here for the GT. The GT is Satan's wrath aimed at us, the Church. We are the target of the GT. Read Mat 24:21-27 again. Nothing there suggests it is God bringing the GT against the wicked. Rather, it is the wicked bringing GT against us.

His great Judgment on the unbelieving masses doesn't affect us, for we will be presiding over it with Him.

Partial true. His Great Judgment, i.e., His wrath is poured out on the wicked but it is AFTER the GT and in response to it. Yes, those of us gathered will be with Christ when this happens but not in heaven, but rather on earth with Him and under His protection.

Don't expect me to follow in your footsteps.

Don't worry, I don't. You have gone off the path and down the road walling in lies and false beliefs whereby you have been so badly deceived and lured into a false sense of security. This makes you a prime target to be deceived and go out when they say Jesus is in the desert or the inner room. You will rush to see when your Lord told you and warned you NOT TO GO OUT!!

What happens to those who go out? We will find out but my guess is they make up the Great Multitude in heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus follows after the ancient Hebrew wedding model, and we can see how it is fulfilled:

Seven Days in the Wedding Chamber

The bridegroom would take his bride to the wedding chamber where they would spend seven days. The bridegroom's friend would wait outside the door of the wedding chamber. When the marriage was consummated, the bridegroom would tell his friend through the door, and the friend would announce it to the assembled guests. The guests would celebrate for seven days until the bride and bridegroom emerged from the wedding chamber. At this time the groom would bring his wife out and introduce her to the community.


Jesus' Fulfillment:

Seven Days in the Wedding Chamber

Ancient Jewish eschatology taught that a seven year "time of trouble" would come upon the earth before the coming of the Messiah. During that time of trouble, the righteous would be resurrected and would enter the wedding chamber where they would be protected from the time of trouble. Today that seven year period is referred to, by Christians, as the Tribulation, and as Birth Pangs by the Jews. After 7 years in Heaven the Groom, Christ, will bring His wife to Earth and at the time of His Second Coming He will introduce her to the community on Earth.


Marriage Supper

After seven days in the wedding chamber, the bride and bridegroom would emerge and participate in a feast with friends and family. There would be joyous celebrating during this feast. The feast would conclude the wedding celebration.



Jesus' Fulfillment:

Marriage Supper

As the bride and bridegroom celebrated with a joyous wedding supper, so Jesus and His bride, the church will celebrate the marriage. Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints) Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'". Revelation 19:6-9


Depart for Home

Jesus' Fulfillment:
Depart for Home

Just as the bride and bridegroom left the marriage supper to go to the home that the bridegroom had prepared, so Jesus and His bride will depart for their new home. "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes... One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.


From the pattern of the ancient wedding practices, we see that, like the bridegroom of ancient times, Jesus came to the home of His bride for the betrothal, made a covenant with His bride and sealed it with a glass of wine, paid the bride price with His life and sent His bride gifts of the Holy Spirit.


We, the betrothed (Christ's Church ) currently await the return of our Bridegroom to take us to the wedding chamber (the rapture ) to spend seven years (while the tribulation occurs on Earth ). We will then celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and depart with our Bridegroom for our new home, the new Jerusalem. ~ Revelation 21:1-4

End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding



.

That's lovely. Where does it say this the marriage is before (or during) the Tribulation. Show me that verse and you would have a case. Show it not, and you had an unsupported opinion. Rev 19 which is where the Wedding is first discussed is long after the GT is over and is linked to the Second Coming.

 

[PlainWord]

still waiting for one postrib rapture verse.

Anyone?

...and we are waiting for one pretrib Rapture verse.

I am in the minority here even with Post Tribbers. I do not see the Rapture until after the Millennium. I think it is part of the resurrection and judgment on the final day of earth. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies GOD, as in the FATHER, as the one coming with those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thes 4 passage does not discuss the return of Christ.

 

[popeye]

That's lovely. Where does it say this the marriage is before (or during) the Tribulation. Show me that verse and you would have a case. Show it not, and you had an unsupported opinion. Rev 19 which is where the Wedding is first discussed is long after the GT is over and is linked to the Second Coming.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Army of heaven with saints on horses DURING THE GT ride down to defeat the Ac and the false prophet.

End of GT,with Jesus' arrival.with his saints,not "for" anyone

 

[PlainWord]

Please understand the context of this statement:

Revelation 19:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

These are Muslim nations with the addition of Russia and this coincides with Ezek 38-39.

 

[popeye]

...and we are waiting for one pretrib Rapture verse.

I am in the minority here even with Post Tribbers. I do not see the Rapture until after the Millennium. I think it is part of the resurrection and judgment on the final day of earth. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies GOD, as in the FATHER, as the one coming with those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thes 4 passage does not discuss the return of Christ.

I will file this reply with the others that have no verses.

Next? Anyone with a postrib rapture verse?

 

[moonbeam]

The bible says only father God knows . not even Jesus the son of God knows. or The Holy spirit
it should be in revelation .

 

[popeye]

Of course we will be here for the GT. The GT is Satan's wrath aimed at us, the Church. We are the target of the GT. Read Mat 24:21-27 again. Nothing there suggests it is God bringing the GT against the wicked. Rather, it is the wicked bringing GT against us.

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,.........

Rev 6;7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Jesus releases death,and 1/4 of earth's inhabitants are killed.
Nothing about any saints,but to you this is not judgement?????


Here,in the following verses,the same Jesus opens yet another seal,and they(non christians) call it the wrath of the lamb.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


You see that PW?

 

[Jeff_56]

The bible says only father God knows . not even Jesus the son of God knows. or The Holy spirit
it should be in revelation .

the Jews were granted Yahweh's Word by Yahweh to guard it and keep it,
and the goyim (dogs)(gentiles) weren't.

Yahweh chose the Jews to bring Salvation to the world, to the Jews first, and then also to the goyim.

yes, finally , the way to Salvation was open by Yahshua for the goyim.

that doesn't mean the goyim get to understand Yahweh's Word. not many anyway.

for that matter, perhaps not many Jews either, at various times.

but even the infant Jews trained right know the Scripture better than the vast multitudes of adults of goyim.... even those trained right for life.

what's the point you may ask ?

just this>> if a wedding is scheduled for 09/2015 on the first Sabbath that has a bright sunny sky at 9am in the morning,

then who can tell what day the wedding will be on ?

no one knows except Yahweh the Creator and whoever He reveals it to. it is a mystery, unknown to everyone else.

what year will the wedding be in ? ((just try to guess, for fun... ))


RIGHT! 2015. Almost anyone can figure that out, and know the year, but not the day......

 

[kennethcadwell]

Six vials out of Seven happen before God's enemies are gathered together at Armageddon.


Revelation 15:

[SUP]7[/SUP] And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. [SUP]8[/SUP] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:

[SUP]1[/SUP] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. [SUP]2[/SUP] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. [SUP]3[/SUP] And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. [SUP]4[/SUP] And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. [SUP]5[/SUP] And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. [SUP]6[/SUP] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [SUP]7[/SUP] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. [SUP]8[/SUP] And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. [SUP]9[/SUP] And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. [SUP]10[/SUP] And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, [SUP]11[/SUP] And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. [SUP]13[/SUP] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SUP]14[/SUP] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. [SUP]15[/SUP] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


The seven vials represent the Wrath of God --- "poured out upon the Earth"....



"I'm not sure where this came from -- I don't believe I have even made any reference that verse..."

( And, I happen to agree... )

Yes I know this, but my point was that all the vials of God's wrath do not get poured out before the Lords return and Armageddon. As you can see by even the passage on this event that the battle of Armageddon is within the vials of God's wrath.

So technically one does not happen before the other, as they are concurrent events...................

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth, i love you man,but You got a partial set of facts,form a position,and run with it.You are leaving stuff out.

Postribs have zero when they think "the man of sin is revealed first" conflicts with pretrib.
1) he murders millions of saints before he defiles the Holy place,so you thinks we are still here and oblivious to who he is till the Jews say so???????

2)He can be revealed for 1 hour,1 week, 1 month,then the gathering,and pretrib suffers nothing.

I am not using partial facts as I constantly show scriptures from the bible that have to be denied in order to make pre-trib rapture fit.

I use to be a big pre-trib rapture supporter tell I actually sat down and studied for myself the bible with the Holy Spirit guiding my studies.

You bring up the that the man of sin murdering millions of saints (believers in Christ) before he defiles the temple.
Where is your proof on this ??? For one if this is so then the man of sin will be revealed before he defiles the temple, and the Lord Jesus warning to the Jews in Judea to flea at this temple defilement event would be all for nothing because they would already know this man is the antichrist.

Second being murdered by the man of sin is not a rapture/gathering event.
Those who are dead in Christ, which are those who have already past and those who will be killed by the man of sin, will be raised first, then we who are alive and still remain from this horrible GT event will be caught up in the air with them to be gathered with the Lord.
If a person is murdered by the man of sin that is not a rapture............

The bible also gives us a time frame so your 1 hour, 1 week, 1 month revealing of the man of sin does not fly by the bible. For the bible says he is given 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1,260 days to carry out this persecuting and killing of the saints and Jews. God's wrath and the Lord Jesus return at the end of the GT is in response to this horrible acts of the man of sin !!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

paul and the disciples thought Jesus was coming back in their time.

Not completely true !!!


There was some Apostles and disciples who did believe the Lord's return and the rapture (gathering together to the Lord) had already taken place back then.

Apostle Paul was not one of them as he clearly answers this question and squashes that debate in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. He tells believers not to be unaware/deceived into thinking this way, as squashes the pre-trib rapture theory.
For Apostle Paul says the man of sin has to be revealed first, and scriptures clearly show the man of sin is revealed mid-trib when he goes in and defiles the temple.

People want so hard to dismiss this passage in Thessalonians, but you just can't and Apostle Paul shows he did not believe the rapture and coming happened back then. For he was still waiting on that day as well, and said that day will not come tell the falling away and the man of sin revealed comes first.
This makes pre-trib rapture not work, unless you want to call it pre-great trib rapture !!!!

But then that will be more of a mid-trib rapture still then a pre-trib, because 3 1/2 years of the 7 have already taken place. Then the defiling of the temple by the man of sin followed by the persecuting and killing of Christians and Jews by him for the final 3 1/2 years (GT).

 

[PlainWord]

I will file this reply with the others that have no verses.

Next? Anyone with a postrib rapture verse?

Truth is, nobody has a verse that discusses the "rapture" in relation to timing of the GT. The verses that discuss the "rapture" are of course 1 Thes 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-52. You will find in 1 Thes 4:14 that it is GOD THE FATHER who is coming. GOD is said to be "bringing those who sleep in Jesus." Further, the passage states that it is the LORD HIMSELF, meaning GOD who is coming and it is with God's trumpet. The Cor passage tells us that the living will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" at the LAST TRUMPET.

So the question is when does this happen? Does it happen before, during, after or much after the Tribulation? Does it happen pre-wrath, mid wrath, post wrath? Or does it happen Pre Mil, mid Mil or Post mil? We are told that there is a resurrection associated with the "rapture." We are told that there are two resurrections and the first one was Christ. We are not given multiple future resurrections, just one of Saved and Unsaved.

We are told repeatedly that the resurrection is "at the last day" and the end of the age. We are told that they are resurrected and face judgment. The GWT is shown after the Trib and after the millennium. My view is that there will be a return of Christ and a return of God the father. The day of the Lord is an OT concept therefore I believe the DAY of the LORD is speaking of God's return. We see that the New Jerusalem comes down from God in Rev 21.

All the evidence appears to suggest that the "ratpure" is clearly after the Tribulation and I believe is likely after the millennium too.

 

[FancyNancy]

Of course it is the people!! All the people are where? In the City which comes down from heaven. How do you think they got back up in heaven if we are to return with and stay with Christ??? HUH!!

I gather you are missing the fact that after the final Judgment, God is coming down with His glorious City to the Earth...and we who are here ruling and reigning with King Jesus, will have our new capital to dwell in and have as our base from which we come and go---forever.

LOL. Clear reading vs. inventions. Clear reading is the Bride comes down from heaven already in the new city Jerusalem when the new earth is created long after the GT and Mil. That's the clear meaning but it doesn't agree with your unclear theory so you jumble it around in an effort to fit your false narrative.

I have the very clear meaning. We will be here when the City is made ready and comes down for us with the Father who will dwell with us.

Of course we will be here for the GT. The GT is Satan's wrath aimed at us, the Church. We are the target of the GT. Read Mat 24:21-27 again. Nothing there suggests it is God bringing the GT against the wicked. Rather, it is the wicked bringing GT against us.

You are a bit short sighted. No born again believer will remain to endure the Great Tribulation. If the Church was here, Satan could do NOTHING against her, for we who are filled with the Holy Spirit would rise up and defeat Him like a boot on a cockroach. The TARGET of Satan is the JEW, the elect of God.

Partial true. His Great Judgment, i.e., His wrath is poured out on the wicked but it is AFTER the GT and in response to it. Yes, those of us gathered will be with Christ when this happens but not in heaven, but rather on earth with Him and under His protection.

It's fully true. Of course we will be here on Earth with our King as He pronounces judgment on the goats. We don't leave Earth when we come with our King. We won't need His protection as we will be in our glorified bodies and reigning with Him as the Kingdom government.

Don't worry, I don't. You have gone off the path and down the road walling in lies and false beliefs whereby you have been so badly deceived and lured into a false sense of security. This makes you a prime target to be deceived and go out when they say Jesus is in the desert or the inner room. You will rush to see when your Lord told you and warned you NOT TO GO OUT!!

That's ridiculous. I have no deception about this.

What happens to those who go out? We will find out but my guess is they make up the Great Multitude in heaven.

Yep, you do like to guess.

 

[FancyNancy]

...and we are waiting for one pretrib Rapture verse.

I am in the minority here even with Post Tribbers. I do not see the Rapture until after the Millennium. I think it is part of the resurrection and judgment on the final day of earth. 1 Thes 4:14 clearly identifies GOD, as in the FATHER, as the one coming with those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thes 4 passage does not discuss the return of Christ.

Your admission sets you way back in your powers of understanding of eschatological scripture.

 

[DJM]

I believe is a pre-trib rapture since Paul said we are a not appointed to wrath and that when the first seal is opened in REV 6 is when the wrath begins. I will be very alert this Sept since it will be 50 years from the time Jerusalem was taken back in the 6 day war. Super blood moon,70th Jubilee year and pope coming to America to address Congress and possible the UN meeting has me thinking that the rapture could very well be this year. It all starts with a 7 year peace plan for Israel. The micro chipping will then commence once the economy crashes for good. Were 1 day closer and those who teach that the church goes thru the trib can have all the wrath they can handle. If you can't buy or sell without the mark it's going to be a rough ride and that's only 1 element of the wrath. If I am wrong then let the beheadings commence. i just want to beheading to heaven and soon.

 

[flob]

"Not appointed to wrath" isn't a ticket out. Otherwise the apostle wouldn't be praying for and exhorting the Thessalonian saints.
In any case, those saints left behind (Mt 24:40-41) will mostly be preserved alive during the Tribulation, as the Great Woman in Revelation 12. Those who are martyred for the Lord will inherit the kingdom also. In addition to the first-taken ones. The early rapture, throughout the New Testament, is a conditional matter. It is not guaranteed (Rev 3:10; Lk 21:46).

 

[flob]

To the last parentheses may I add Hebrews 11:5.

 

[PlainWord]

I gather you are missing the fact that after the final Judgment, God is coming down with His glorious City to the Earth...and we who are here ruling and reigning with King Jesus, will have our new capital to dwell in and have as our base from which we come and go---forever.

So you also see God coming down with His glorious City to earth? Let me suggest that the below passage here:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...God Himself will be with them and be their God...and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [SUP]11 [/SUP]having the glory of God...

is describing the same scene as this passage here:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (God) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).

Thus your rapture is at the end, it is at the Day of the Lord. It is God coming down in both passages just as you said He would. Kaboom, your pre-trib theory just took a death blow