Theories of the Atonement

[RussellJBenigno]

I think you will find that in the sentiment, "Only God can forgive sin", Jesus is plainly letting the cat out of the bag..... He would be explaining who He was.

The real cat out of the bag and why the disciples were given the command to forgive sins is in these verses.
(John 10:34 [UKJV])
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, All of you are gods?
(John 1:12 [UKJV])
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(1John 4:17 [RNT])
Thus love has been made perfect with us so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment, because as God is we also are in this world.
(1John 3:2 [RNT])
Beloved, we are now children of God and it is not yet plain what we shall be. But we know that if he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
(John 10:35 [UKJV])
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
And if anyone wants to break scripture and froth about this, take it up with God.

 

[Pumicestone]

There are some extraordinary, deep and well thought-out posts in this better-than-average thread.
And yet, such widely divergent conclusions - all drawn from the same source.

Either
the source is ambiguous and/or contradictory
or
man is just too dumb to collectively get the message
or
the 'Holy Spirit' isn't doing much of a job guiding us to the truth.

Gotta be one of the above. Take your pick ?

 

[PeterJens]

There are some extraordinary, deep and well thought-out posts in this better-than-average thread.
And yet, such widely divergent conclusions - all drawn from the same source.

Either
the source is ambiguous and/or contradictory
or
man is just too dumb to collectively get the message
or
the 'Holy Spirit' isn't doing much of a job guiding us to the truth.

Gotta be one of the above. Take your pick ?

There is another option. Out of the fruit of your heart you will make your choice. Theology like most things in life reflects only own perspective, which is our problem. The Lord is always looking for conclusions from what he has sown not because it must proceed in this way. So what you see is not because the source has a problem, but it is the heart into which it has been planted.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

There are some extraordinary, deep and well thought-out posts in this better-than-average thread.
And yet, such widely divergent conclusions - all drawn from the same source.

Either
the source is ambiguous and/or contradictory
or
man is just too dumb to collectively get the message
or
the 'Holy Spirit' isn't doing much of a job guiding us to the truth.

Gotta be one of the above. Take your pick ?

Unfortunately we are not getting our information from the same source and not all are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
If your source is a commentary which denounces Jesus as the "Source" of revelation then they are blind. The god of this world blinds them. They teach that what Jesus taught is not for the church today, but was only for the Jews.

Dumb, you bet! Its called "Intellectual dishonesty". How many people have already denounced what Jesus has said since I have been posting. Jesus is the final revelation of God to us. They see the words of Jesus right in front of them and try and explain them away or just plain ignore them. Why? Dumb? demon possessed? [I have also seen demon possession after accepting certain doctrines with in the church.] Or just ignorant of the Word as I was before God opened my understanding. [remember I have said, I believed those things as well, just as Paul believed the religious miss direction of his time].

Next their are those who reject the direction of the Holy Spirit and have replaced that "Source" with man made doctrines. Jesus said He would send us the Holy Spirit to teach us all things. That's why it took 300yrs before we had the bible as we know it. But there are teachings which have crept into the church which denounce the filling of the Holy Spirit. I was taught that doctrine [a doctrine of demons] and then miraculously found out how much God wants to fill us with His Holy Spirit. There were people who then hated me because I was immersed in the Holy Spirit. But I am bold enough to denounce such teaching and call the modern church to repentance.

So! It is an extremely sad [and I weep for the church] state that we find the modern church. Which then leads us to the "Whore of Babylon" a religious arm of the anti-Christ and what is called the "great falling away". Not all who say "Lord "lord" are His. With great sadness I say there are those in the church today who would crucify Him again and will weep at His return.
So! Yes! I agree with your assessment.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

There is another option. Out of the fruit of your heart you will make your choice. Theology like most things in life reflects only own perspective, which is our problem. The Lord is always looking for conclusions from what he has sown not because it must proceed in this way. So what you see is not because the source has a problem, but it is the heart into which it has been planted.

Amen! A heart which has not, "Set his face like flint" will be side tracked.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

(Heb 1:1-2 [LONT])
God, who in ancient times, spoke often, and in various ways, to the fathers, by the prophets, has, in these last days, spoken to us by a Son, whom he has constituted Lord of all things, by whom, also, he made the universe:
So far we have all sorts of quotes from commentaries and systematic theologies, but hardly any authoritative source.
In the OT the purpose of the sacrifice was to "Purify" the alter. The blood was a purifying agent sprinkled on the alter and people [at certain times of the year]. The animal was not "paying" for anything, but its blood was a purifying covering. [Which I'm not sure how that works] The life of the animal was in its blood and that life was applied to the alter and people? The implication is not a substitute, but a purify act of transferring life. The innocent animal was giving its life to another? Is Christ some how giving life to us, purifying us by the life in His blood? Paul taught this as an addendum to the Gospel. "Christ in us" and applying His life to us. I don't know how this works and only have a partial picture.
So what does the Word of God [Jesus] have to say about atonement and thus shed light on the OT sacrifice?
However, If we reject what Jesus taught, we will never come to an understanding of atonement.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

The all who are made alive in Christ are IN Christ. There is no atonement to be benefited from unless one is IN Christ. There is no promise of salvation and eternal life for those who are not IN Christ.

Sadly the modern concepts of "salvation and eternal life" [pie in the sky] are not found in the teachings of Jesus.
Salvation or deliverance were administered to people before the cross and after. Jesus administered "Abundance of Life without end" during His ministry. There is no change in salvation before or after the cross.
Eternal Life is a mistranslation of an idiom [not brought out in the text] and is salvation.

 

[Pumicestone]

I rest my case.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

The all who are made alive in Christ are IN Christ. There is no atonement to be benefited from unless one is IN Christ. There is no promise of salvation and eternal life for those who are not IN Christ.

Once again the source is ignored when it comes to the subject of atonement or salvation.
Why???????? If it says "ALL", why must we ignore it? Deal with it, but don't change it or ignore it. Ask yourself ,"How is that possible?", instead of saying, "I need to change that".
(Rom 5:18-19 [20cNT])
Briefly then, just as a single offence resulted for "ALL" mankind in condemnation, so, too, a single decree of righteousness resulted for "ALL" mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings Life. For, as through the disobedience of the one man the "Whole" race was rendered sinful, so, too, through the obedience of the one, the "Whole" race will be rendered righteous.
However, There is Salvation exclusively for the believer only and it is not "Pie in the Sky".
(Rom 10:13-17 [UKJV])
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report? So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[tribesman]

Sadly the modern concepts of "salvation and eternal life" [pie in the sky] are not found in the teachings of Jesus.
Salvation or deliverance were administered to people before the cross and after. Jesus administered "Abundance of Life without end" during His ministry. There is no change in salvation before or after the cross.
Eternal Life is a mistranslation of an idiom [not brought out in the text] and is salvation.

Once again the source is ignored when it comes to the subject of atonement or salvation.
Why???????? If it says "ALL", why must we ignore it? Deal with it, but don't change it or ignore it. Ask yourself ,"How is that possible?", instead of saying, "I need to change that".
(Rom 5:18-19 [20cNT])
Briefly then, just as a single offence resulted for "ALL" mankind in condemnation, so, too, a single decree of righteousness resulted for "ALL" mankind in that declaration of righteousness which brings Life. For, as through the disobedience of the one man the "Whole" race was rendered sinful, so, too, through the obedience of the one, the "Whole" race will be rendered righteous.
However, There is Salvation exclusively for the believer only and it is not "Pie in the Sky".
(Rom 10:13-17 [UKJV])
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report? So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So? This was your opinion? Are you advocating universalism or what? Unclear. Maybe you'd try expound on what you mean with "Pie in the Sky" and why you object to it? It is nothing but unclear what you try to get across unless you explain it plainly, as a basis for discussion. Maybe I even agree with you on this "Pie in the Sky" thing! You just have to elaborate on it, if you are interested in discussing it, that is.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

So? This was your opinion? Are you advocating universalism or what? Unclear. Maybe you'd try expound on what you mean with "Pie in the Sky" and why you object to it? It is nothing but unclear what you try to get across unless you explain it plainly, as a basis for discussion. Maybe I even agree with you on this "Pie in the Sky" thing! You just have to elaborate on it, if you are interested in discussing it, that is.

Dear Tribsman
Ok! Let's deal with "Pie in the sky" first. The rich young ruler asks Jesus "what must I do to have eternal life". Jesus' answer is quite strange. He says,"Are you following the 10C". I asked why? Why the 10C and what do they have to do with eternal life. Everything Jesus taught was from the OT, So I began to search for His answer. I found it in Deut.28:1-14. The promise to the Jewish people was that if they followed the 10C they would have a full and rich life. I then looked at the Greek for eternal life. It said "Life without end". The question was, How are Deut.28 "richness of life" and "Life without end" associated. Then it hit me, they were saying the same thing. Its an "Idiom", a concept understood in the original language. They are both speaking about, "Richness and abundance of life which has no end". Then I went back and looked at every verse which spoke of this concept and it all fit. Nobody was asking about how to live forever. They were asking how to have a "Full and rich meaningful life". For the Jew Living forever was already a concept the Jew believed in. They were the chosen people and of course they were going to live forever. Jesus did not teach "Living forever" because its not found anywhere in the OT. The modern concept of "Eternal Life" ie: Living forever, is a false narrative and does not communicate the true Gospel as spoken by Jesus. The modern gospel is all based upon "living forever", but the Gospel of Jesus Christ is based upon "Richness and abundance of life spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically". And He demonstrated this in everything He did and taught..

 

[RussellJBenigno]

I have given people a challenge and so far no one has been able to accomplish it.
First tell me what you have been taught the Gospel is.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

So? This was your opinion? Are you advocating universalism or what? Unclear. Maybe you'd try expound on what you mean with "Pie in the Sky" and why you object to it? It is nothing but unclear what you try to get across unless you explain it plainly, as a basis for discussion. Maybe I even agree with you on this "Pie in the Sky" thing! You just have to elaborate on it, if you are interested in discussing it, that is.

There is no such thing as "Universal Salvation". I'm speaking of "Universal Forgiveness". "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Done, period. If not then the prophet was lying when he said that. If people want to add and subtract from the prophets words then they don't believe they are words from God. The prophet spoke exactly as God directed his mouth. To say, "Yes, But!" is to call God a liar.

The best example of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the "Prodigal Son" story. He did not get "Saved" [the biblical "Saved"] until he came back home. He was "Saved" from the life he chose which would have lead to death. The life he chose was the opposite of Deut 28:1-14. The biblical "Saved" is also different than the saved based upon living for ever. Almost all the words in the Gospels have been altered to accommodate the false narrative of eternal life.

 

[tribesman]

Dear Tribsman
Ok! Let's deal with "Pie in the sky" first. The rich young ruler asks Jesus "what must I do to have eternal life". Jesus' answer is quite strange. He says,"Are you following the 10C". I asked why? Why the 10C and what do they have to do with eternal life. Everything Jesus taught was from the OT, So I began to search for His answer. I found it in Deut.28:1-14. The promise to the Jewish people was that if they followed the 10C they would have a full and rich life. I then looked at the Greek for eternal life. It said "Life without end". The question was, How are Deut.28 "richness of life" and "Life without end" associated. Then it hit me, they were saying the same thing. Its an "Idiom", a concept understood in the original language. They are both speaking about, "Richness and abundance of life which has no end". Then I went back and looked at every verse which spoke of this concept and it all fit. Nobody was asking about how to live forever. They were asking how to have a "Full and rich meaningful life". For the Jew Living forever was already a concept the Jew believed in. They were the chosen people and of course they were going to live forever. Jesus did not teach "Living forever" because its not found anywhere in the OT. The modern concept of "Eternal Life" ie: Living forever, is a false narrative and does not communicate the true Gospel as spoken by Jesus. The modern gospel is all based upon "living forever", but the Gospel of Jesus Christ is based upon "Richness and abundance of life spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically". And He demonstrated this in everything He did and taught..

A bit clearer now. Though it looks somewhat like splitting of hairs. To walk in faith means tremendous blessings both in this life and the hereafter. Yet first off, many jews had misunderstood or forgotten or even lost what the promises of God actually were at heart (the Saducees especially) : resurrection to life, and that eternally. Not about keeping on to a relatively small area of land and the wealth and goodness of earthly life. This is a crisis that affects judaism until this day. Secondly, jewish ancestry, with the blessings that came with it as being part of the covenant people did not automatically ensure one of eternal life. There had to be a regeneration and Christ the King, the Messiah, taught the people how this could be. They may have accepted the concept, that didn't mean that they as individuals were all living in its reality.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

A bit clearer now. Though it looks somewhat like splitting of hairs. To walk in faith means tremendous blessings both in this life and the hereafter. Yet first off, many jews had misunderstood or forgotten or even lost what the promises of God actually were at heart (the Saducees especially) : resurrection to life, and that eternally. Not about keeping on to a relatively small area of land and the wealth and goodness of earthly life. This is a crisis that affects judaism until this day. Secondly, jewish ancestry, with the blessings that came with it as being part of the covenant people did not automatically ensure one of eternal life. There had to be a regeneration and Christ the King, the Messiah, taught the people how this could be. They may have accepted the concept, that didn't mean that they as individuals were all living in its reality.

NO! NOooo! We're not splitting hairs but making a point. The Abundance of Life Jesus was preaching did not end with this life. The richness of Life continues on, hence eternal life. The modern focus has been on the pie in the sky. In reality the message was eat your pie here and in the sky.
(John 11:25-26 [UKJV])
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?
Next the Sadducee's were a small group who did not hold to the main belief of living after death and are an aberration.
>>>jewish ancestry, with the blessings that came with it as being part of the covenant people did not automatically ensure one of eternal life. There had to be a regeneration and Christ the King, the Messiah, taught the people how this could be. <<<<
No where did Jesus teach "regeneration for eternal life". Those thoughts come from the satanically driven systematic ravings of john calvin, a demon possessed man.
I will only address those things taught by Jesus Christ as Truth.

 

[SolidGround]

There is no such thing as "Universal Salvation". I'm speaking of "Universal Forgiveness". "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Done, period. If not then the prophet was lying when he said that. If people want to add and subtract from the prophets words then they don't believe they are words from God. The prophet spoke exactly as God directed his mouth. To say, "Yes, But!" is to call God a liar.

The best example of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the "Prodigal Son" story. He did not get "Saved" [the biblical "Saved"] until he came back home. He was "Saved" from the life he chose which would have lead to death. The life he chose was the opposite of Deut 28:1-14. The biblical "Saved" is also different than the saved based upon living for ever. Almost all the words in the Gospels have been altered to accommodate the false narrative of eternal life.

I fully accept this line of reasoning, when applied to our practical (experiential) salvation.
The only caution, is in placing salvation in the hands of the individual. In practice, it works. In doctrine, it is faulty.
Get what I'm saying?

From our vantage point, salvation is dependent upon our response to the Gospel, and continuation in it.
From the Heavenly vantage point, salvation is dependent upon God's Will, Plan, Purpose, and choice.

I guess the question I would have for you is: what is the difference from before and after Christ's death and Resurrection? Basically, what was the change that happened due to the work of Christ, and how does it affect us today, and how is it different than what God had in place before the New Covenant?

----
I may not agree with your doctrine, but I recognise you as a brother in Christ, based on your attitude and expression. There are many who see such things as an irreparable divide. Don't buy into that, and don't separate yourself just because of such differences.
There is a lesson for the Church in viewing another side of this magnificent object of the Truth. It is not a one dimensional object! It has many sides, and no man can view it from all angles at once!

 

[SolidGround]

NO! NOooo! We're not splitting hairs but making a point. The Abundance of Life Jesus was preaching did not end with this life. The richness of Life continues on, hence eternal life. The modern focus has been on the pie in the sky. In reality the message was eat your pie here and in the sky.
(John 11:25-26 [UKJV])
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?
Next the Sadducee's were a small group who did not hold to the main belief of living after death and are an aberration.
>>>jewish ancestry, with the blessings that came with it as being part of the covenant people did not automatically ensure one of eternal life. There had to be a regeneration and Christ the King, the Messiah, taught the people how this could be. <<<<
No where did Jesus teach "regeneration for eternal life". Those thoughts come from the satanically driven systematic ravings of john calvin, a demon possessed man.
I will only address those things taught by Jesus Christ as Truth.

What about "regeneration UNTO eternal life"?
Such things have been taught since the beginning by the Church, and in the Word.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

I guess the question I would have for you is: what is the difference from before and after Christ's death and Resurrection? Basically, what was the change that happened due to the work of Christ, and how does it affect us today, and how is it different than what God had in place before the New Covenant?

Good question. Very Good question, but I will have to get back to you on it. Its been a long day.

 

[SolidGround]

Can the unregenerate obtain eternal life?
Of course not. Jesus had such discussions, especially with Nicodemus. One must be born again to enter.

So is eternal life the goal, or something else?
The Land we seek is another one, not of this world. That was the Faith of Abraham, and the same Faith we have that makes us Abraham's children: children of faith... Children of God.
It is in this Faith that we are adopted Sons, and co-heirs with Christ.

What is the "pie" to eat upon the earth? Healing? Riches? Fame?

The gifts of the Spirit are not rewards for us, but tools. They are, nonetheless, very GOOD.

 

[SolidGround]

Good question. Very Good question, but I will have to get back to you on it. Its been a long day.

No problem at all. I am enjoying this topic. Thinking about such things forces me into the Word, which is a very good place to be.