jesus saves corrupt sinners.
- Thread starter Jeff_56
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P
I think I get what you're saying. You seem to be saying that Matthias wasn't yet chosen, so he couldn't have been number 12, but here are some things to consider in relation to that. According to Acts chapter 1 verses 21 and 22, here were the qualifications which needed to be met for Judas' replacement:
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Matthias, Judas' replacement, apparently was in company with the other 11 Apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among them, beginning from the baptism of John right up unto the day that Jesus ascended back to heaven. Also, although Matthew's and Mark's gospel accounts seem to indicate that Jesus only appeared to the 11 after He rose from the dead, Luke's gospel records this in chapter 24 verses 33 thru 36:
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Jesus appeared after His resurrection to more than just the eleven in that He also appeared to them that were with the eleven Apostles and I personally believe that Matthias was one of the them that were with them and Acts chapter 1 seems to confirm this. As such, I believe that Matthias was number 12 and Paul might not have even been number 13. Barnabas is also called an Apostle in Acts chapter 14 verse 14. Did he become an Apostle before or after Paul did? The Bible also calls others Apostles besides the twelve, Paul and Barnabas.
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Matthias, Judas' replacement, apparently was in company with the other 11 Apostles all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among them, beginning from the baptism of John right up unto the day that Jesus ascended back to heaven. Also, although Matthew's and Mark's gospel accounts seem to indicate that Jesus only appeared to the 11 after He rose from the dead, Luke's gospel records this in chapter 24 verses 33 thru 36:
And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Jesus appeared after His resurrection to more than just the eleven in that He also appeared to them that were with the eleven Apostles and I personally believe that Matthias was one of the them that were with them and Acts chapter 1 seems to confirm this. As such, I believe that Matthias was number 12 and Paul might not have even been number 13. Barnabas is also called an Apostle in Acts chapter 14 verse 14. Did he become an Apostle before or after Paul did? The Bible also calls others Apostles besides the twelve, Paul and Barnabas.
J
Again, it's just opinion, but if there's a doctrine of drawing lots, should we perhaps be drawing lots to make decisions one way or another which are difficult? Is it like God is in the dice? It's just very peculiar, to say somebody has a 50/50 chance of being an apostle, and to presume God's intervention in a matter of chance. Also, the twelve apostles' names are on the foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Paul, who was an apostle, is then excluded? Seems we'd need thirteen foundations, to work in Matthias and Paul.
P
I don't think that it's Peter plus the 12. When Paul said in I Corinthians chapter 15 verse 5 that Jesus was seen of Cephas or Peter, then the twelve, I don't believe that he was separating Peter from the 12, but merely saying that Peter saw Jesus alone and then later saw Him again as part of the 12 and the gospels seem to confirm this if we do a comparative study. Mark chapter 16 verse 7 says But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. Here, Peter seems to be set apart from the rest of the disciples in relation to seeing Jesus. Luke chapter 24 verse 34 says Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon and that was spoken by the two men to whom Jesus appeared on the road to Emmaus. It seems to me that Jesus appeared to Simon Peter or Cephas before He appeared to the 12 as a group and that this is what Paul was referring to in the order of Christ's appearings in I Corinthians chapter 15.
G
I don't believe Matthias was an Apostle. God Chooses Apostles.
Peter had already disobeyed the Lord.......before he cast lots for Matthias.
The Lord commanded Peter NOT to leave Jerusalem In Acts 1:4. Peter was to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit.
If you look in Acts 1:12 Peter was not in Jerusalem, He was about a days journey AWAY from Jerusalem, in an upper room at a place they were staying. Peter was commanded to to stay in Jerusalem and WAIT. Peter wasn't in Jerusalem and Peter didn't wait.
It is why we never hear of Matthias again. The Lord chooses Apostles, not men.
Peter had already disobeyed the Lord.......before he cast lots for Matthias.
The Lord commanded Peter NOT to leave Jerusalem In Acts 1:4. Peter was to stay in Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit.
If you look in Acts 1:12 Peter was not in Jerusalem, He was about a days journey AWAY from Jerusalem, in an upper room at a place they were staying. Peter was commanded to to stay in Jerusalem and WAIT. Peter wasn't in Jerusalem and Peter didn't wait.
It is why we never hear of Matthias again. The Lord chooses Apostles, not men.
J
Yes, and the arguments involving such as lots in Proverbs, I forget where offhand, and being referred to as of twelve, afterwards in Acts a time or two, these things supporting Matthias was legitimate aren't conclusive. But this is also to say there's no certainty he was not legitimate, either, one of those things none of us can "epignosis" know.
Last edited by a moderator: