Theories of the Atonement

[RussellJBenigno]

No problem at all. I am enjoying this topic. Thinking about such things forces me into the Word, which is a very good place to be.

That's why I am here to test my revelation. I don't mind people pressing on what I pro-port. If what I say cannot stand the test, then I need to reexamine it. I need to find where I went wrong. However, normally I have already been working on it for months or years before presenting it to others. It's not so much as proving myself right and others wrong, but am I right in the eyes of God. Am I presenting what He would have me present and am I true to scripture. I had to revamp, to my surprise, a lot of what I was taught. I did not start out to prove or disprove anything I was taught, but to find the Truth, Many people approach the bible with preconceived ideas of what they want to find. They distort the verses to render what they want it to say. I call this Frankenstein Theology where dismembered verses are sown together into a monstrosity. My approach is, what does it say even if I don't like it. I try to be what I call "intellectually honest".

Its not proving others wrong as much as proving what I see.

 

[tribesman]

NO! NOooo! We're not splitting hairs but making a point. The Abundance of Life Jesus was preaching did not end with this life. The richness of Life continues on, hence eternal life. The modern focus has been on the pie in the sky. In reality the message was eat your pie here and in the sky.

It is splitting hairs, cos noone would really disagree with you that the one walking with the Lord have eternal life already while on earth which continues on for eternity. This is not a point of contention. What you mean exactly then with "Pie in the Sky" is yet unclear. There is something else you are trying to get across, which is not yet fully clear.

No where did Jesus teach "regeneration for eternal life". Those thoughts come from the satanically driven systematic ravings of john calvin, a demon possessed man. I will only address those things taught by Jesus Christ as Truth.

Regeneration is obviously connected to salvation which is connected to the resurrection to life eternal and salvation in Christ Jesus. Maybe you hold to that there is a different way to eternal life than taught by the Apostles and Christ Jesus Himself.

Now as you are calling Calvin "a demon possessed man" (mind you, ultimately all of the church fathers and many other theologians have the same position as him on this matter) I expect not a constructive dialogue with you. It quite much shows that it's not only your unclear agenda, what you really are shooting at, (some form of universalism it seems) risk be also that you are just a private interpreter, who caught up something somewhere from someone who held some strange teaching, then adding your own inputs as you like. Your real intent will soon be obvious here anyways me thinks.

Now I am suggesting this thread get back on-topic: theories of the Atonement.

 

[SolidGround]

The real cat out of the bag and why the disciples were given the command to forgive sins is in these verses.
(John 10:34 [UKJV])
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, All of you are gods?
(John 1:12 [UKJV])
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(1John 4:17 [RNT])
Thus love has been made perfect with us so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment, because as God is we also are in this world.
(1John 3:2 [RNT])
Beloved, we are now children of God and it is not yet plain what we shall be. But we know that if he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
(John 10:35 [UKJV])
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
And if anyone wants to break scripture and froth about this, take it up with God.

The Pharisees were not wrong in saying that only God can forgive sins.
They were wrong in thinking that Jesus was not God.

Look at John 20:22-23
How is it that we can forgive sins? By the Spirit!
We have God within us!
It is God who forgives sins, we are the vessels of God.

 

[SolidGround]

I have given people a challenge and so far no one has been able to accomplish it.
First tell me what you have been taught the Gospel is.

1st Corinthians gives the clear Gospel in verses 3 and 4.

The next question is: is there such a thing as resurrection from the dead unto eternal life?
Or is the Bible merely an allegory for living a good full life?

Verse 12-19 state that if it is allegory, then it is powerless, vain, and hopeless.

 

[SolidGround]

I'll condense my questions to one post, as they are becoming scattered.

1. What is the difference from before and after Christ's death and Resurrection? Basically, what was the change that happened due to the work of Christ, and how does it affect us today, and how is it different than what God had in place before the New Covenant?

2. What is "eternal life", and is it natural/physical, or heavenly/spiritual?

3. Is there such a thing as resurrection from the dead unto eternal life?
Or is the Bible merely an allegory for living a good full life?

4. What is salvation? What is it that we are saved from? What is the way in which we are saved, and how does it differ from atonement?
What is the "product" of salvation(what is it good for)? What is the "product" of atonement(what is it good for)?

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Dear Solidground
First of all you are approaching this from a reformed theology. I'm not being rude or nasty, but you can't understand what I'm saying from a reformed perspective and definitions. Its not because you are stupid. Its because your definitions won't allow you to understand. Its like you are a ford mechanic working on a foreign car. You try and put gasoline in a diesel car and it won't work. Therefore I need to present my terminology and how it works from my perspective, because it is not based upon any known teachers nor systematic theologies. What I present is built from the ground up. Now this is not to say that there aren't any teachers out there who may present some of the same thoughts, not to my knowledge. This is a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe Jesus when he said “His Gospel would be preached until the end”, not this modern aberration which ignores everything he taught.



The Gospel is not new, it has always been the rule of God. It did not start with Jesus. Adam was the first king of mankind under the rule of God. Adam was meant to rule mankind under Gods direction from the garden and failed. Adam had everything for mankind's happiness and lost it. Noah spoke the Gospel [Kingdom of God (KOG)] as a preacher of righteousness. Noah was calling men back to the rule of God. Moses proclaimed the KOG and called men to repentance. How do we know? The book of Hebrews states,”and the Gospel that was preached to them in the wilderness was preached to us”. [The bible is a snapshot of God's message to men, meaning that not all is spelled out.] God sent the second Adam Jesus the Deliver [Christ]. His Message was the Good News of God Rules and Gods Kingdom was Present. To demonstrate this Jesus took disease, lack of all kind, demon oppression and death and turned it on its head with the KOG. To enter into the KOG men had to have a change of heart. They had to be helped in their thinking and actions and that's where the Holy Spirit was administered to men. Being Born Again is the receiving of the Holy Spirit which Jesus was more than willing to give as He ministered. He offered the Holy Spirit to the woman at the well. He offered it to Nicodemus, if not then Jesus' message of entering into the KOG would be useless and hollow. Seek first the KOG and all things will be added to you, but I'm not going to give you the key to get in. Really! How stupid that would sound! But this is what modern christianity has come to, a hollow echo of the message. Sad! Sorry, back to the Gospel. Jesus administered the Holy Spirit to the disciples way before His death and resurrection. They needed the Holy Spirit in order to proclaim the Gospel as they went out by two's. They needed the Holy Spirit to cast out demons and heal the sick. The same as it is today. Try casting out demons or healing the sick without the Holy Spirit. They needed the Holy Spirit to enter into the Kingdom they were preaching. The Holy Spirit was offered to people hearing the KOG or else the message would be hollow and useless. The message of the Real Gospel of Jesus Christ has been distorted,

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Dear Solidground
..>>>Can the unregenerate obtain eternal life?<<<<

Can those who do not adhere to God's direction obtain richness of unending abundance of life and enter into the KOG. NO! Deut. 28:1-14 [the Gospel preached by Moses] says they need to be obedient to God's Laws. This is why Jesus told the young man to follow the 10C. The young man was on the right track, but Jesus said the young man needed to “Perfect” his faith and Jesus offered to to that.
>>>Of course not. <<<<

Correct! We have to look at the total picture. Your kingdom come your will be done. God's rule here on earth. There is no sickness or lack in heaven nor had there been in the garden the original KOG message on earth. Jesus came to restore that kingdom, hence the Gospel message 'repent for the KOG is at hand. If you do not Love God with all your mind, heart, and soul, then expect nothing from Him. The Prodigal son was not saved until he returned to his father it was only then he was delivered [biblically saved].
>>>>Jesus had such discussions, especially with Nicodemus. One must be born again to enter<<<<.
Born again is being under the direction of the Holy Spirit It is when your mind, heart and soul are in tune with God. The direction of the Holy Spirit has always been available to those who love God. Jesus offered the Holy Spirit to the woman at the well. “Ask me and I will give you living water”.
>>>So is eternal life the goal, or something else?<<<<

Richness and abundance of Life is a gift for God's children to enjoy life. Adam had no lack in the garden. Adam forfeited this richness of life and Jesus came to restore it. The physical, of course, is not the total goal. Restoration of relationship with God is the total goal, but it has its perks [a taste of the Garden of Eden and a taste of the KOG to come]..
>>>The Land we seek is another one, not of this world<<<<.

So says the modern gospel, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The land we seek is the KOG and that land will once again be restored on this earth and the heavenly temple will descend to earth and the lamb will be the light because there will be no sun. The for runner of the KOG will be the millennium where the lion will lay down with the lamb. Abundance and richness of life will rule as it did in the Garden. Its not one or the other, its not spiritual or physical, there will be no difference the both will become one.
>>>That was the Faith of Abraham, and the same Faith we have that makes us Abraham's children: children of faith... Children of God. It is in this Faith that we are adopted Sons, and co-heirs with Christ<<<<.
I would be in 100% agreement if it was in its proper context which is this. If our faith is in the rule of God, which is what Abraham was looking for. What city was he looking for? A physical city built by God and a city ruled by God, the KOG. The idea of some ethereal spiritual kingdom floating in the clouds was not on Abraham's mind. The millennium kingdom is Physical. Everything in scripture points to the KOG. The spiritualized kingdom is Modern doctrine.



Modern theology is Frankenstein Theology of dismembered verses pieced together into a monstrosity. There is no coherence in modern theology with its hodge podge of disconnected verses bridged together with chewing gum and rubber bands. [and in some cases wickedness] modern theology may look coherent from a glance, but when really examined in the face of scripture falls apart.


>>>What is the "pie" to eat upon the earth? Healing? Riches? Fame<<<<
Yes! Perks of the KOG. Yes! The Garden of Eden. Yes! The land of Milk and Honey. Yes! The fullness of the KOG in its physical capacity and spiritual capacity. Adam walked with God in the Garden. God Rules and with it His Physical Kingdom Come His will be done on earth AS IT IS [spiritually] IN HEAVEN. There is no lack in heaven as was in the Garden and will be in the millennium.
>>>The gifts of the Spirit are not rewards for us, but tools. They are, nonetheless, very GOOD<<<<.

So! Let's see here. You are working on your house with an old hammer, rusty saw, and dull drill and out of the goodness of my heart I purchase for you a new hammer, power saw, and a power drill and give it to you. Are they not gifts to you for your betterment? You didn't earn the tools or buy the tools, I gave them to you. Isn't that what a gift is????

 

[SolidGround]

Dear Solidground
..>>>Can the unregenerate obtain eternal life?<<<<

Can those who do not adhere to God's direction obtain richness of unending abundance of life and enter into the KOG. NO! Deut. 28:1-14 [the Gospel preached by Moses] says they need to be obedient to God's Laws. This is why Jesus told the young man to follow the 10C. The young man was on the right track, but Jesus said the young man needed to “Perfect” his faith and Jesus offered to to that.
>>>Of course not. <<<<

Correct! We have to look at the total picture. Your kingdom come your will be done. God's rule here on earth. There is no sickness or lack in heaven nor had there been in the garden the original KOG message on earth. Jesus came to restore that kingdom, hence the Gospel message 'repent for the KOG is at hand. If you do not Love God with all your mind, heart, and soul, then expect nothing from Him. The Prodigal son was not saved until he returned to his father it was only then he was delivered [biblically saved].
>>>>Jesus had such discussions, especially with Nicodemus. One must be born again to enter<<<<.
Born again is being under the direction of the Holy Spirit It is when your mind, heart and soul are in tune with God. The direction of the Holy Spirit has always been available to those who love God. Jesus offered the Holy Spirit to the woman at the well. “Ask me and I will give you living water”.
>>>So is eternal life the goal, or something else?<<<<

Richness and abundance of Life is a gift for God's children to enjoy life. Adam had no lack in the garden. Adam forfeited this richness of life and Jesus came to restore it. The physical, of course, is not the total goal. Restoration of relationship with God is the total goal, but it has its perks [a taste of the Garden of Eden and a taste of the KOG to come]..
>>>The Land we seek is another one, not of this world<<<<.

So says the modern gospel, but not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The land we seek is the KOG and that land will once again be restored on this earth and the heavenly temple will descend to earth and the lamb will be the light because there will be no sun. The for runner of the KOG will be the millennium where the lion will lay down with the lamb. Abundance and richness of life will rule as it did in the Garden. Its not one or the other, its not spiritual or physical, there will be no difference the both will become one.
>>>That was the Faith of Abraham, and the same Faith we have that makes us Abraham's children: children of faith... Children of God. It is in this Faith that we are adopted Sons, and co-heirs with Christ<<<<.
I would be in 100% agreement if it was in its proper context which is this. If our faith is in the rule of God, which is what Abraham was looking for. What city was he looking for? A physical city built by God and a city ruled by God, the KOG. The idea of some ethereal spiritual kingdom floating in the clouds was not on Abraham's mind. The millennium kingdom is Physical. Everything in scripture points to the KOG. The spiritualized kingdom is Modern doctrine.



Modern theology is Frankenstein Theology of dismembered verses pieced together into a monstrosity. There is no coherence in modern theology with its hodge podge of disconnected verses bridged together with chewing gum and rubber bands. [and in some cases wickedness] modern theology may look coherent from a glance, but when really examined in the face of scripture falls apart.


>>>What is the "pie" to eat upon the earth? Healing? Riches? Fame<<<<
Yes! Perks of the KOG. Yes! The Garden of Eden. Yes! The land of Milk and Honey. Yes! The fullness of the KOG in its physical capacity and spiritual capacity. Adam walked with God in the Garden. God Rules and with it His Physical Kingdom Come His will be done on earth AS IT IS [spiritually] IN HEAVEN. There is no lack in heaven as was in the Garden and will be in the millennium.
>>>The gifts of the Spirit are not rewards for us, but tools. They are, nonetheless, very GOOD<<<<.

So! Let's see here. You are working on your house with an old hammer, rusty saw, and dull drill and out of the goodness of my heart I purchase for you a new hammer, power saw, and a power drill and give it to you. Are they not gifts to you for your betterment? You didn't earn the tools or buy the tools, I gave them to you. Isn't that what a gift is????

Do you think this physical KOG will occur one earth prior to the 2nd Coming?

I agree with the "physical" aspect... but as a new body, and future.
It is not a "now" thing.
We are promised suffering, not pleasure. The Peace we have now is internal and spiritual, not physical.
Now is the time to take up the Cross. The utopia is future, and post Resurrection.

 

[SolidGround]

I agree with your understanding of the Restoration... but not sure where you are going with it.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

1st Corinthians gives the clear Gospel in verses 3 and 4.

The next question is: is there such a thing as resurrection from the dead unto eternal life?
Or is the Bible merely an allegory for living a good full life?

Verse 12-19 state that if it is allegory, then it is powerless, vain, and hopeless.

The Gospels say "Jesus went town to town preaching the Gospel". What is it???
1Corinithians can only be understood from the reference point of Jesus Gospel. If you don't know Jesus Gospel then you can't understand Corinthians. The modern Gospel interprets Jesus Gospel in the light of the epistles when in reality it is the opposite.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Look at John 20:22-23
How is it that we can forgive sins? By the Spirit!
We have God within us!
It is God who forgives sins, we are the vessels of God.

Good Answer! Best one I've heard on the subject and closer than you know.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

It is splitting hairs, cos noone would really disagree with you that the one walking with the Lord have eternal life already while on earth which continues on for eternity. This is not a point of contention. What you mean exactly then with "Pie in the Sky" is yet unclear. There is something else you are trying to get across, which is not yet fully clear.

Regeneration is obviously connected to salvation which is connected to the resurrection to life eternal and salvation in Christ Jesus. Maybe you hold to that there is a different way to eternal life than taught by the Apostles and Christ Jesus Himself.

Now as you are calling Calvin "a demon possessed man" (mind you, ultimately all of the church fathers and many other theologians have the same position as him on this matter) I expect not a constructive dialogue with you. It quite much shows that it's not only your unclear agenda, what you really are shooting at, (some form of universalism it seems) risk be also that you are just a private interpreter, who caught up something somewhere from someone who held some strange teaching, then adding your own inputs as you like. Your real intent will soon be obvious here anyways me thinks.

Now I am suggesting this thread get back on-topic: theories of the Atonement.

My agenda is clear, but the Holy Spirit is needed to comprehend.

 

[SolidGround]

The Gospels say "Jesus went town to town preaching the Gospel". What is it???
1Corinithians can only be understood from the reference point of Jesus Gospel. If you don't know Jesus Gospel then you can't understand Corinthians. The modern Gospel interprets Jesus Gospel in the light of the epistles when in reality it is the opposite.

Are you saying that the Good News is the Law?

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Do you think this physical KOG will occur one earth prior to the 2nd Coming? I agree with the "physical" aspect... but as a new body, and future.
It is not a "now" thing. The utopia is future, and post Resurrection

Of course! I totally agree. What we experiencing now is not the fullness of the KOG. It is a taste of things to come. When the fullness of the KOG is finally here we will have things all new :ie body, earth.

We are promised suffering, not pleasure. The Peace we have now is internal and spiritual, not physical.
Now is the time to take up the Cross. .

Now that is not what Jesus preached. We will go through tribulation and troubles, but, BUT, we will overcome those tribulations. Paul is the example of over coming tribulation in victory.
(2Cor 11:24-27 [UKJV])
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. three times was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(Acts 28:31 [UKJV])
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
What is this KOG Paul preached? It was the Gospel according to Paul. If you notice the KOG is mentioned first. Paul was preaching the same Gospel Jesus preached.

.

 

[SolidGround]

Of course! I totally agree. What we experiencing now is not the fullness of the KOG. It is a taste of things to come. When the fullness of the KOG is finally here we will have things all new :ie body, earth.

Now that is not what Jesus preached. We will go through tribulation and troubles, but, BUT, we will overcome those tribulations. Paul is the example of over coming tribulation in victory.
(2Cor 11:24-27 [UKJV])
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. three times was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(Acts 28:31 [UKJV])
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
What is this KOG Paul preached? It was the Gospel according to Paul. If you notice the KOG is mentioned first. Paul was preaching the same Gospel Jesus preached.

.

And yet Paul, and all the Apostles, were martyrs.
Overcome physically.
Not spiritually.

And this is the Good News. This world is not the goal.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Are you saying that the Good News is the Law?

Noooo! OK I see where you got that from what I said. The KOG is a theme through out history. Deut.28:1-14 is a shadow figure of the fullness of the Gospel to come through Jesus Christ. The Garden of Eden was a shadow of the millennium. The Gospel in a nut shell is "God's Rule". The Messiah of God is representation of God here on earth ruling.
These 613 laws of Moses and the Law of God are different. Deut.28:1-14 are referencing to the 10C and not Moses laws. According to Deut.28:1-14 these blessings will come on those who love God when they follow the 10C, which in reality is the rulership of God. This is why Jesus was asking the young man if he was following the 10C. Its all about the KOG.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

And yet Paul, and all the Apostles, were martyrs.
Overcome physically.
Not spiritually.

And this is the Good News. This world is not the goal.

Your missing my point. The "Goal" is not the desire of the physical world. The goal is the rulership of God. When God rules blessings follow, hence Deut 28:1-14 [have you read it yet?]. This is what Jesus taught and preached as the GOOD News and that's why He asked the young man if he was being obedient.

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Are you saying that the Good News is the Law?

OK! Just to make a point and only a point.
Answer me why Jesus asked the young man if he was following the 10C when he asked Jesus how to have eternal life?

 

[RussellJBenigno]

Alright! I have a question.
(Luke 4:18 [UKJV])
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; ......
Is there a difference between preaching the Gospel to the "Poor" as opposed to the rich?
Would you preach the same Gospel to Donald Trump a rich man as compared to a beggar on the street.
Jesus appears to make that distinction. Why?

 

[tribesman]

My agenda is clear, but the Holy Spirit is needed to comprehend.

That sounds much like branhamites and similar people when their contentions are questioned, "oh you guys don't get it that it takes a revelation from God to comprehend this and you guys just don't have enough of the Holy Spirit". Quite meaningless to try discuss with such souls, who usually are caught up by some kind of pride.

Prov.13

[10] Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

I am here to prove to myself that what I see is scriptural is from God. I need to know my revelation is in accord with God and not something I have made up. I'm not here to convince anyone what to believe. Atonement is an area I don't understand and by brain storming with others, things become clear to me. So when people push on my revelation the question is will it stand.

If what you suggest is scriptural and sound, then it must stand to be examined. You have so far taught some things which are confusing and not scriptural. If you are really serious about proving your own "revelation", as you call it, then it stands to see how much, if anything, you are really willing to stand corrected if proven that your posts are not biblical.

...I don't approach it from a preconceived concept. If it says it I believe it...I say this just for you to understand where I'm coming from. I don't follow any systematic theologies even though I was taught them. I don't follow any particular teacher or commentary. I threw away all my commentaries. I decided that the only teacher I was going to follow was Jesus and use Him to define everything else. And let me tell you I had to give up a lot of teachings I held dear because Jesus didn't teach them. Believe me when I say I had no desire to reject anything I was taught. I did not set out to prove or disprove anything. I just read it as it was and believed it....Grace means favor and the favor is not wasted, the favor is a free gift and inclusive of all...Now before you jump to the conclusion I'm speaking of universal salvation that's not the case.

We have loads of people all over the globe who isolate themselves from their fellow believers, thinking they are somewhat above them, thinking they need noone to teach them anything and claiming that they only follow what they hear from Jesus. What are you speaking of then if not some form of universalism?

...These 613 laws of Moses and the Law of God are different. Deut.28:1-14 are referencing to the 10C and not Moses laws. According to Deut.28:1-14 these blessings will come on those who love God when they follow the 10C, which in reality is the rulership of God. This is why Jesus was asking the young man if he was following the 10C. Its all about the KOG.

This is confusing speech and you are already here contrary to scripture.

2Pet.1

[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.