When does the rapture occur?

[popeye]

I obliterated your argument in post #3263. Your entire post is without merit and is absolutely destroyed and thrown on the scrap heap of nonsense where it belongs. You cannot take 1 Thes 4:14 and swap God out and insert Christ in. If you can do it there, then you can nail God the Father to the Cross and put Jesus up in heaven at the time.

Come back when you have real answers to the questions I posed.

Hebrews 1 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Spin that one into your doctrine.

What do make of it? Are there 2 "fathers"?

The study of the deity of Christ involves what I can,and can not say.
I can say Jesus is God. Can you?

 

[popeye]

Yet another example of the 'overlapping' of "God", and "jesus";
1 Thes 4;8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.(Just a few verses prior to your "Jesus is not God verse/"revelation".)

John 20;21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

You ignored the same comparison,concerning the resurrection where both God and Jesus are claimed to have raised him from the dead.

I will take that to mean you have no answer for those verses,or the ones I have now showed you.

 

[popeye]

God the Father=God

God the son=God

God the Holy Spirit=God


Helllo?

 

[PlainWord]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him.

No. I'm saying that God brings those with Him..............in Christ.

God is doing the bringing (of those who sleep in Jesus - meaning those who are saved in Christ.) Okay, so you agree God is coming and bringing in 1 Thes 4? That's major progress

No. Because They indwell One Another, where One is, there the other Two are.

They are one GOD.

No. This emphasizes Jesus' humanity. He cried out "God," not "Father."

Agreed. Jesus is Jesus, God is God the Father, the HS is the HS. Together they are one but separate equal parts of the one. When the name of just one is invoked, we can assume that particular part of the whole is being discussed. Thus in 1 Thes 4:14, God the Father is coming and bringing saints.

I am not aware of anyone, regardless of your position on timing, that thinks God the Father returns before the Son or before the Tribulation with Saints, for a Rapture. Thus if God is the one coming and bringing and rapturing in 1 Thes 4, as the text clearly states, there can be no pre-trib timing because the Day of the Lord has always been after the Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble.

No, Jesus never lies or lied. But I'm missing your point. How does this relate to your silliness of God Coming back apart from Christ? God and Christ aren't separate People.

Not saying that God comes apart from Jesus (although He might). I'm saying that it is God coming in 1 Thes 4. It's God's Trumpet being blown. It is "the LORD HIMSELF" - God the Father coming. What Jesus is doing or where Jesus is during 1 Thes 4:13-17 is irrelevant for the purpose of my point. My point is we have the timing of the Return of God, the Father, clearly identified. It is called, the DAY of the LORD and it is after Jacob's Trouble.

Zech 14 clearly is talking about the FATHER, is he not?

(truncated for effect)

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

The above is all about the Father. The Father stands on the Mount of Olives, Christ stands on Mount Zion (Rev 14). The Father has ALL THE SAINTS, Christ has the 144K.

We are discussing the possibility that Jesus, the Son and God, the Father, are acting separately, Daniel shows them apart but Christ being brought to the Father in Dan 7. Now look what Zechariah has to say a few verses later.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

Thus they are both here on earth. God is seen on the Mount of Olives and Christ is seen on Mount Zion. These are two separate places (although they are close together).

Back to my main point. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the hero pre-trib rapture passage. Yet, if it's God the Father (which it is) doing the coming and bringing of all the saints (which it is) then we have the timing set by Zechariah right here and the timing is Post Trib. The debate is over!!

 

[PlainWord]

I was in the Air Force, 68-72. First assignment was a year in Turkey, and then a year and a half on Okinawa. In both of those places we had House Boys to do our laundry, clean our rooms, and polish our shoes, Spoiled me, and then I came back to Ft. Meade, Md., and had to start doing all that stuff for myself, .

We have walked in some of the same places. I too have been to Okinawa at the Marine Corps base and of course found my way to Naha - a pretty wicked place. As a USMM Officer I could go to either the Enlisted or Officers club. Didn't have to worry about inspections anymore.

 

[PlainWord]

That is NOT a physical separation, but symbolizes the differences in the Functions of the Personages within the SAME SINGULAR DEITY. The Father is the SHOT CALLER as inmates would put it, and the SON is the one who DOES WHAT THE FATHER WANTS DONE. The Father WILLED CREATION and the SON did the CREATING.

Isaiah 43:10-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I alone declared, saved, and proclaimed— and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and I am God.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

I like this possibility. It works just fine as far as I can see. The Father and the Lamb do appear to be both seen and clearly both are mentioned after the Tribulation here:

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

I truly believe that these verses...

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...

[SUP]5 [/SUP]After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues...

...is telling us that we will see heaven open up above us and we will see the Lord in all His glory appear in heaven before He returns. The "kings of the earth" which I believe are Muslim kings and the target of God's wrath, will know that the wrath of God is coming and they have time to be afraid and to run to the rocks and caves. What an awesome and incredible scene this would be!!!

 

[popeye]

Ok,there you have it.

The no brainer stands.
Jesus gathers his bride pretrib,just as we thought all along.

 

[PlainWord]

Yet another example of the 'overlapping' of "God", and "jesus";
1 Thes 4;8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.(Just a few verses prior to your "Jesus is not God verse/"revelation".)

John 20;21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

You ignored the same comparison,concerning the resurrection where both God and Jesus are claimed to have raised him from the dead.

I will take that to mean you have no answer for those verses,or the ones I have now showed you.

I understand why you want to substitute the word, "GOD" in 1 Thes 4:14 to "JESUS" so desperately. Let's look at the verse again:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

If God the Father is the one coming and bringing Saints, your pre-Trib timing for this passage is shot. We have many OT passages which discuss the Day of the Lord and all of them contain Post Trib timing. So, if this passage is just another mention of the Day of the Lord (which I believe is the case) then you really don't have anything left to stand on. We know God Returns and we know He delivers His wrath. We know God brings Saints from Zech 14. So, all you have is Paul reiterating that God is coming with Saints which Zechariah already tells us. Paul adds the Rapture component, i.e. the transformation of the living to the resurrection that was previously taught by Zechariah, Daniel and Ezekiel.

So I know how important it is for you to argue interchangeability in this one passage. I doubt you wish to interchange so readily anywhere else, huh? It's okay, Popeye God is in control. Our blessed hope of Salvation is unchanged. As Luke teaches, when things are at their worst (really says this of those in Israel), "Look up, your redemption draws near."

 

[PlainWord]

Ok,there you have it.

The no brainer stands.
Jesus gathers his bride pretrib,just as we thought all along.

Popeye has overruled our LORD and is forcing Him to come before the Tribulation to remove the Church. It must be so because Popeye has spoken and has willed it to be so. Popeye has changed the below to say this:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so JESUS will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Popeye hasn't changed out a member of the Trinity anywhere else that he's told us about, but here he has because it was needed to keep the pre-trib timing alive. Well done sir!!

 

[popeye]

Popeye has overruled our LORD and is forcing Him to come before the Tribulation to remove the Church. It must be so because Popeye has spoken and has willed it to be so. Popeye has changed the below to say this:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so JESUS will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Popeye hasn't changed out a member of the Trinity anywhere else that he's told us about, but here he has because it was needed to keep the pre-trib timing alive. Well done sir!!

Does this dance away mean you are saying Jesus is not God?

You refuse to go there. HMMMM.
Doctrinal straigt jacket big time.

I already showed you the verses,but your cunning craftiness exposes the root of the matter huh?

Berean is the best. Try it some time

 

[popeye]

I understand why you want to substitute the word, "GOD" in 1 Thes 4:14 to "JESUS" so desperately. Let's look at the verse again:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

If God the Father is the one coming and bringing Saints, your pre-Trib timing for this passage is shot. We have many OT passages which discuss the Day of the Lord and all of them contain Post Trib timing. So, if this passage is just another mention of the Day of the Lord (which I believe is the case) then you really don't have anything left to stand on. We know God Returns and we know He delivers His wrath. We know God brings Saints from Zech 14. So, all you have is Paul reiterating that God is coming with Saints which Zechariah already tells us. Paul adds the Rapture component, i.e. the transformation of the living to the resurrection that was previously taught by Zechariah, Daniel and Ezekiel.

So I know how important it is for you to argue interchangeability in this one passage. I doubt you wish to interchange so readily anywhere else, huh? It's okay, Popeye God is in control. Our blessed hope of Salvation is unchanged. As Luke teaches, when things are at their worst (really says this of those in Israel), "Look up, your redemption draws near."

You miss the point entirely.

YOU BUILT a doctrine on the IMPOSSIBILITY of "God" in that verse being "Jesus"

I ,on the otherhand,can read it and move on.

You Built on a whim in your mind.

Now,lets find out why you have to twist a no brainer. So,it is YOU THAT NEEDS creativity ,and invention of that verse.

Oh.thats right,it would HAVE TO BE THAT WAY IN ORDER FOR THE RAPTURE TO BE POST MILLINEAL HUH????

Stop inventing things then ascribing it to others.

 

[VCO]

God is doing the bringing (of those who sleep in Jesus - meaning those who are saved in Christ.) Okay, so you agree God is coming and bringing in 1 Thes 4? That's major progress



They are one GOD.



Agreed. Jesus is Jesus, God is God the Father, the HS is the HS. Together they are one but separate equal parts of the one. When the name of just one is invoked, we can assume that particular part of the whole is being discussed. Thus in 1 Thes 4:14, God the Father is coming and bringing saints.

I am not aware of anyone, regardless of your position on timing, that thinks God the Father returns before the Son or before the Tribulation with Saints, for a Rapture. Thus if God is the one coming and bringing and rapturing in 1 Thes 4, as the text clearly states, there can be no pre-trib timing because the Day of the Lord has always been after the Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble.



Not saying that God comes apart from Jesus (although He might). I'm saying that it is God coming in 1 Thes 4. It's God's Trumpet being blown. It is "the LORD HIMSELF" - God the Father coming. What Jesus is doing or where Jesus is during 1 Thes 4:13-17 is irrelevant for the purpose of my point. My point is we have the timing of the Return of God, the Father, clearly identified. It is called, the DAY of the LORD and it is after Jacob's Trouble.

Zech 14 clearly is talking about the FATHER, is he not?

(truncated for effect)

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

The above is all about the Father. The Father stands on the Mount of Olives, Christ stands on Mount Zion (Rev 14). The Father has ALL THE SAINTS, Christ has the 144K.

We are discussing the possibility that Jesus, the Son and God, the Father, are acting separately, Daniel shows them apart but Christ being brought to the Father in Dan 7. Now look what Zechariah has to say a few verses later.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

Thus they are both here on earth. God is seen on the Mount of Olives and Christ is seen on Mount Zion. These are two separate places (although they are close together).

Back to my main point. 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the hero pre-trib rapture passage. Yet, if it's God the Father (which it is) doing the coming and bringing of all the saints (which it is) then we have the timing set by Zechariah right here and the timing is Post Trib. The debate is over!!

Only in your opinion.

The Rapture is an event that is a fast as lightning flashing across the Sky (don't blink).

The Second Coming is an event that is as slow as the Time it takes to move the World's Armies to gather in the Valley of Megiddo.



The major difference between Pre-Trib Theology and Post-Trib Theology is:

In Pre-Trib Theology, WE believe you HAVE TO GET READY NOW! AND STAY READY!

That would include, genuinely being Born Again, LOVING Jesus as LORD with all your heart, Grounded in the Word, Staying FILLED with the Spirit as much as possible, knowing the Prophetic Events of the Future to help prepare Others, and sincerely WATCHING FOR THE BRIDEGROOM TO CALL US OUT. Therefore, in the REMOTE chance that it isn't Pre-Trib, so what? WE ARE ALREADY PREPARED FOR WHAT LIES AHEAD.

Post-Trib Theology on the other hand, leads MANY to think they can WAIT until Antichrist signs the Peace Treaty Covenant with ISRAEL, before they have to Start to Get READY. That means if they are WRONG, they will have MISSED THE BOAT, because only those who already have the HOLY SPIRIT actually in their HEARTS, will be Called Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven.

 

[popeye]

Yet another example of the 'overlapping' of "God", and "jesus";
1 Thes 4;8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.(Just a few verses prior to your "Jesus is not God verse/"revelation".)

John 20;21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

You ignored the same comparison,concerning the resurrection where both God and Jesus are claimed to have raised him from the dead.

I will take that to mean you have no answer for those verses,or the ones I have now showed you.

Maybe you missed this?

Hello?

PW...... Hello???

 

[popeye]

Sorry for the delay , we need to get PW straight on the deity of Jesus. He was not taught that Jesus is God,as is confirmed by Jehovah in heb 1 (and others).

What we can do,is direct him to some good bible teachers on youtube that teach the deity of Jesus.

Sorry to pick on you old chap. But the diety thing is a requirement here on cc.

 

[VCO]

Sorry for the delay , we need to get PW straight on the deity of Jesus. He was not taught that Jesus is God,as is confirmed by Jehovah in heb 1 (and others).

What we can do,is direct him to some good bible teachers on youtube that teach the deity of Jesus.

Sorry to pick on you old chap. But the diety thing is a requirement here on cc.

I wouldn't be so Hasty to jump to that conclusion if I were you. Notice that PW said he Liked my Post #3280 at the bottom of the previous page. PW seems to be using terminology definitions that are slightly different than what most mainline Churches mean by those Same TERMS. I put the Emphasis on slightly, because it is not like the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity.

For those who have NEVER SEEN the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity; the following link will take you to Chart made by an EX- MORMON, Sandra Tanner, pointing out the Different Definitions to the SAME terms we use:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htmx

 

[PlainWord]

I wouldn't be so Hasty to jump to that conclusion if I were you. Notice that PW said he Liked my Post #3280 at the bottom of the previous page. PW seems to be using terminology definitions that are slightly different than what most mainline Churches mean by those Same TERMS. I put the Emphasis on slightly, because it is not like the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity.

For those who have NEVER SEEN the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity; the following link will take you to Chart made by an EX- MORMON, Sandra Tanner, pointing out the Different Definitions to the SAME terms we use:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htmx

Thanks VCO. I have complete understanding (as much as anyone) concerning the Trinity. My point to Popeye is that if a verse mentions one member of the Trinity as doing something, that you cannot swap that member out for a different member. I get that God, the Son and the HS are all GOD; i.e., three parts of GOD. All are wholly and separately God.

What I am saying is you cannot take a passage and make changes from the original to the changed as I illustrate below. It would completely alter the meaning:

Original Text: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

Changed Text: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name GOD THE FATHER.

Original Text: [SUP]46 [/SUP]And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Changed Text: [SUP]46 [/SUP]And about the ninth hour GOD cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “Jesus, Jesus, why have You forsaken Me?

Original Text: Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Change Text: Anyone who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Son of Man, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Since we cannot change members of the Trinity in the text above then why can we do it here?

Original Text: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Changed Text per Popeye: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so Jesus will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

I'm sorry, I'm a purist. I never think it appropriate to swap out members of the Trinity, interchanging them any time we want to fit something we want. According to Popeye, it is just fine to swap out, i.e. replace God with Jesus in the passage of 1 Thes 4:14. So if it is okay to do it in 1 Thes 4:14 why can't we do it anywhere we want like I did in the 3 passages above?

My strongly held view is the Bible is worded exactly the way it is because it's God's book and it says exactly what He wants it to say. So if 1 Thes 4:14 was really Jesus returning and bringing the saints the text would have said "Jesus will bring" and not "God will bring." God doesn't need or want man to tamper with His words EVER!! He is God and He knows what he's saying and how He wishes to say it.

To Popeye, I've answered you over and over. If you want to swap out who is coming and bringing in 1 Thes 4, go ahead but don't involve me in it. I will never agree with you that you can swap out members of the deity any times you feel like it. I'll stick to the Word as-is, exactly as written. If something has to change, it will be my view and not the Word itself.

 

[PlainWord]

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated...A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them...

Here comes the Father with Saints.

The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. [SUP]5 [/SUP]They come from a far country, From the end of heaven— The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

Don't take away the Father's return dear Popeye and don't assign the saints that the Father brings with Him to the return of Jesus. You are taking too much license with the Word. I'm sorry if it is inconvenient for you that it is the Father coming in 1 Thes 4:14. Instead of changing it to Jesus coming there, how about you re-think your opinion??? Please rethink your views before you rewrite the Bible. Do me that favor, Okay?

 

[popeye]

I wouldn't be so Hasty to jump to that conclusion if I were you. Notice that PW said he Liked my Post #3280 at the bottom of the previous page. PW seems to be using terminology definitions that are slightly different than what most mainline Churches mean by those Same TERMS. I put the Emphasis on slightly, because it is not like the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity.

For those who have NEVER SEEN the 180 degree Terminology Differences between Mormonism and Mainline Christianity; the following link will take you to Chart made by an EX- MORMON, Sandra Tanner, pointing out the Different Definitions to the SAME terms we use:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htmx

Most cults do that.
J.W. have the same MO

 

[popeye]

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated...A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them...

Here comes the Father with Saints.

The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. [SUP]5 [/SUP]They come from a far country, From the end of heaven— The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.

Here comes the Father with Saints.

Don't take away the Father's return dear Popeye and don't assign the saints that the Father brings with Him to the return of Jesus. You are taking too much license with the Word. I'm sorry if it is inconvenient for you that it is the Father coming in 1 Thes 4:14. Instead of changing it to Jesus coming there, how about you re-think your opinion??? Please rethink your views before you rewrite the Bible. Do me that favor, Okay?

Sorry,I do not building off a premise.

You need something,somewhere to place the rapture post milineum.
All those sentances you write have failed to do so.

But while you are handy. IS JESUS GOD OR NOT?????

Watch this;
I say "yes he is"

You ,for some strange reason can not.

 

[popeye]

To Popeye, I've answered you over and over. If you want to swap out who is coming and bringing in 1 Thes 4, go ahead but don't involve me in it. I will never agree with you that you can swap out members of the deity any times you feel like it. I'll stick to the Word as-is, exactly as written. If something has to change, it will be my view and not the Word itself.

You either have no clue,or you are intententinally being obtuse.

I can read it just as it is,and jesus indeed brings the saints with him.

rev 19 testifies of who it is with the saints;

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


In fact under your made up template hebrews 1 needs revision,because "GOD" ,IN FACT, refers to NO OTHER BUT JESUS.

Here is the basis of your error.
You omit the fact that God(the father) has exalted Jesus to the highest place,and it pleases the father that the Son is exalted.
Phil 2;9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.




Luke 1;32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

John 18;5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

John 14;9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.